Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 01:32PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

My reserved seat = you move. Simple really. Backed up by by-laws and the courts if you are really obstinate.

The Internet is a great place for horseshít masquerading as fact but in real life actions have consequences.

Your seat is only reserved if and when Irish rail properly inform all other passengers of the reservation from the start of the journey. Then I may sit in your seat but will know that it is reserved from xxx station and will happily move when you appear.

It is not acceptable to allow people take a seat which appears unreserved only to take it from them without warning mid journey.

sligotrain · 08-11-2012 02:03PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Your seat is only reserved if and when Irish rail properly inform all other passengers of the reservation from the start of the journey. Then I may sit in your seat but will know that it is reserved from xxx station and will happily move when you appear.

It is not acceptable to allow people take a seat which appears unreserved only to take it from them without warning mid journey.

Your seat is reserved from the time you book and pay for it.

Losty Dublin · 08-11-2012 02:05PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

If I ever encounter you in my seat, pontificating as you do, it will be my very great pleasure to give you an expensive and time consuming lesson in what can and can not be done with an Irish Rail reservation.

Considering that when I went to Waterford last week there was 1. a notice warning others not to sit there and 2. my name was over the seat I imagine you would be on very shaky ground indeed. Even if it wasn't there, the ticket with the reservation on it would be sufficent proof to shift your dogmatic backside.

As others have pointed out, it is in the CIE by-laws that purchase of a ticket is no guarantee of a seat, and it is also a summary offence to tamper with a reserved seat. Good luck in court.

Don't forget the PA announcements and the LED train display informing passengers in 2 languages not to occupy these seats; aTV ad campaign and iPhone app may be needed in time for them

Thankfully, these selectively ignorant people who are above the rules applicable to their fellow passengers or whom have delusions of entitlement of their golden passes are few and very far between

Hilly Bill · 08-11-2012 02:06PM

inform all the passengers? 'this is your driver speaking,please dont sit in seat number 24 and 58 as these are reserved for joe and mary who will join us later'. I would have thought that people would act like adults and not like spoilt little kids . You still havent answerd my question from earlier foggy, would you sit in any seat you like in a theatre just because there wasnt a name on it? Do you make a habit of taking things that dont belong to you just because there wasnt a name on it?

corktina · 08-11-2012 02:22PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That's assuming every passenger is going to be aggressive around this, CT. The other way around is to reserve the seat for the whole trip which is reasonable if they board in Mallow or Limerick Junction but not if they board close to Dublin as the seat's then lost for a passenger who is doing a shorter trip; eg Cork-Mallow. In general, the vast majority of people are respectful of booked seats and will move once asked to; the obnoxious ones are a very small minority.

they coild be the ones carrying a knife....

corktina · 08-11-2012 02:26PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

If I ever encounter you in my seat, pontificating as you do, it will be my very great pleasure to give you an expensive and time consuming lesson in what can and can not be done with an Irish Rail reservation.

Considering that when I went to Waterford last week there was 1. a notice warning others not to sit there and 2. my name was over the seat I imagine you would be on very shaky ground indeed. Even if it wasn't there, the ticket with the reservation on it would be sufficent proof to shift your dogmatic backside.

As others have pointed out, it is in the CIE by-laws that purchase of a ticket is no guarantee of a seat, and it is also a summary offence to tamper with a reserved seat. Good luck in court.

but the point is it was NOT reserved when the guy sat in it.... and your attitude seems somewhat beligerant and should you meet someone of the opposite opinion, anything might happen.

IE are responsible for the mess, both passengers are right.

The Idyl Race · 08-11-2012 02:46PM

corktina wrote: »

but the point is it was NOT reserved when the guy sat in it.... and your attitude seems somewhat beligerant and should you meet someone of the opposite opinion, anything might happen.

IE are responsible for the mess, both passengers are right.

I fail to understand why you believe both passengers are right when it has been clearly pointed out by two other posters that the reservation exists from the point it has been booked.

When the situation arises in real life I would first ask politely, showing my reservation ticket. If the taker of my seat refused to move then I would escalate it to the checker and make a formal complaint. That's not being in any way "beligerant", that is asserting my right to the seat. And rest assured that I would.

foggy_lad doesn't have the golden ticket to the Wonka factory in that situation, merely the right to travel on the train. Not to a pre-booked seat

Losty Dublin · 08-11-2012 02:57PM

corktina wrote: »

they coild be the ones carrying a knife....

So could the man wanting his seat

end of the road · 08-11-2012 03:19PM

homeless student wrote: »

planes are one of the safestmodes of transport aswell, why dont we stand on them?

actually good old micko of ryanair is suggesting this

homeless student wrote: »

standing on trains doesnthave to be a fact of life,

yes it does, some of us don't care and just want to get where we need to go

homeless student wrote: »

add more carriages

i agree.

homeless student wrote: »

start charging the pensioners,there wouldnt be as many standing then.

why? their entitled to it after working all their lives, you will be old soon, take away the free travel from the scangers and those who have self inflicted disabilities such as drug and alcohol addiction.

homeless student wrote: »

in fairness it wouldnt just be the skangers looking for their money back,

ah yes it would, its only that sort who would do it and look for compensation for nothing.

homeless student wrote: »

plenty of tight respectible people around

true, couldn't agree more

sligotrain · 08-11-2012 03:20PM

There's an awful lot of straw man nonsense going here. Whether someone might or might not be carrying a knife adds nothing to the debate, nor does accusations of aggression instead of trying to debate the real points.

Here are the facts:

A seat is booked when it is paid for and booked. A passenger who has booked a seat is entitled to use that seat regardless of whether a notice or electronic sign shows that the seat is booked.

Any sane person will politely ask the person occupying their seat to move seats. If that person refuses to move then the train guard/conductor is the person to go to if there is a dispute. Your printed reservation will provide proof that the seat is indeed booked in your name.

Solair · 08-11-2012 03:22PM

I use the MK4s fairly regularly at the moment and this is what is displayed at Cork.

This seat is reserved from Mallow ..... This seat is Reserved from Mallow (scrolling).

AFAIK, it's the same on the 22000s.

It does work and I regularly see it displayed yet people still sit in the seats anyway.

There may be odd occasions where it doesn't work, or where it hasn't worked properly in previous versions of the software on the system, but it seems to work pretty reliably now.

To be fair too, most people are reasonable and move. It's just the very occasional person who can get weird about it.

There's an increasing understanding that the seats are booked, which wasn't the case in the early days of that system and may not be the case yet on some of the routes that only recently got the 22000s.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 04:04PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

inform all the passengers? 'this is your driver speaking,please dont sit in seat number 24 and 58 as these are reserved for joe and mary who will join us later'. I would have thought that people would act like adults and not like spoilt little kids . You still havent answerd my question from earlier foggy, would you sit in any seat you like in a theatre just because there wasnt a name on it? Do you make a habit of taking things that dont belong to you just because there wasnt a name on it?

For a general admission ticket yes I would be entitled to sit in any seat in a theatre or cinema etc which is not marked out to me as being reserved.

And Irish fail have an obligation to inform passengers Without reservations of which seats are booked and where they are booked from otherwise if these passengers sit in a seat without a reservation they are entitled to remain there for their journey even if halfway through the journey the light comes on to say reserved from the last stop.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 04:14PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I fail to understand why you believe both passengers are right when it has been clearly pointed out by two other posters that the reservation exists from the point it has been booked.

The reservation only exists when it is displayed to other passengers on the train. If I sit in a seat that has no light on and no notice of reservation then once my journey starts and there is still no reservation on the seat that seat is mine for the duration of my journey! Nobody will move me without involving the Gardai and the train will be delayed while all that happens. Irish rail could also be sued very easily for taking a legitimately obtained seat from any passenger in favour of someone with a reservation when it is proven that the reservation was never highlighted to the passenger with no reservation. The reserved passenger would also need to prove they had arrived at the station 20minutes before the train departure time.

sligotrain · 08-11-2012 05:05PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

The reservation only exists when it is displayed to other passengers on the train. If I sit in a seat that has no light on and no notice of reservation then once my journey starts and there is still no reservation on the seat that seat is mine for the duration of my journey! Nobody will move me without involving the Gardai and the train will be delayed while all that happens. Irish rail could also be sued very easily for taking a legitimately obtained seat from any passenger in favour of someone with a reservation when it is proven that the reservation was never highlighted to the passenger with no reservation. The reserved passenger would also need to prove they had arrived at the station 20minutes before the train departure time.

I refer you to the Coras Iompair Eireann byelaws that govern the use of reserved seats on trains:

S.I. No. 109/1984:
CORAS IOMPAIR ÉIREANN BYE-LAWS (CONFIRMATION) ORDER, 1984.
CORAS IOMPAIR ÉIREANN BYE-LAWS (CONFIRMATION) ORDER, 1984.

(2) Any person offending against any of the following Bye-Laws numbered, 3, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 16, 17, 20, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 and 35 and failing to desist or quit, or failing to comply with the Bye-Law as the case may be, when requested so to do by an authorised person may be removed from the railway or any part thereof or any lift or vehicle by an authorised person without prejudice, where any penalty is prescribed as aforesaid for the contravention of any such Bye-Law, to such penalty.

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

So, in short, if you get asked to get out of your seat by a member of IÉ staff, you get out, and note they have the power to remove you from the train. No need to get the Guards involved.

Judgement Day · 08-11-2012 05:32PM

sligotrain wrote: »

I refer you to the Coras Iompair Eireann byelaws that govern the use of reserved seats on trains:

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Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

So, in short, if you get asked to get out of your seat by a member of IÉ staff, you get out, and note they have the power to remove you from the train. No need to get the Guards involved.

What member of staff would this be then - the driver?

corktina · 08-11-2012 05:54PM

sligotrain wrote: »

I refer you to the Coras Iompair Eireann byelaws that govern the use of reserved seats on trains:

[/FONT][/SIZE]

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

So, in short, if you get asked to get out of your seat by a member of IÉ staff, you get out, and note they have the power to remove you from the train. No need to get the Guards involved.

it doesn't say that. It says you may not occupy a seat that notice has been given blah blah blah,. You would need Legal Opinion on whether that means you can occupy and continue to occupy a seat where notice wasn't given. It is not clear that notice can be given after you occupy such seat

ANyway, lets stop all the making excuses for IE....their system a) doesn't work very well and b) is not enforced

homeless student · 08-11-2012 05:59PM

end of the road wrote: »

actually good old micko of ryanair is suggesting this

yes it does, some of us don't care and just want to get where we need to go

i agree.

why? their entitled to it after working all their lives, you will be old soon, take away the free travel from the scangers and those who have self inflicted disabilities such as drug and alcohol addiction.

ah yes it would, its only that sort who would do it and look for compensation for nothing.

true, couldn't agree more

they are just taking up seats for free, madness,just because a person is old doesnt mean they should be entitled to free travel.
I wont be old soon by the way, im in my 20's

The Idyl Race · 08-11-2012 06:01PM

corktina wrote: »

it doesn't say that. It says you may not occupy a seat that notice has been given blah blah blah,. You would need Legal Opinion on whether that means you can occupy and continue to occupy a seat where notice wasn't given. It is not clear that notice can be given after you occupy such seat

ANyway, lets stop all the making excuses for IE....their system a) doesn't work very well and b) is not enforced

I see nobody making excuses for IE but I do see excuses being made for a regular who is determined to deprive a passenger of a properly booked seat.

corktina · 08-11-2012 06:03PM

trouble is if you DO take away the free travel for some or all of the pass holders, you probalby will be taking away a big chunk of the subsidy that allows the trains to run at all. SO, take away the free passes, everyones fares would go up or lines would close IMHO

corktina · 08-11-2012 06:04PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

I see nobody making excuses for IE but I do see excuses being made for a regular who is determined to deprive a passenger of a properly booked seat.

it's IEs at fault if the seat is not flagged, not the hapless passenger who has to stand from Mallow to Dublin, whichever of them that turns out to be!

end of the road · 08-11-2012 06:18PM

homeless student wrote: »

they are just taking up seats for free,

yeah a couple, even if you got rid of the free travel for them it wouldn't make a difference to standing room.

homeless student wrote: »

madness,just because a person is old doesnt mean they should be entitled to free travel.

maybe not, but they are, and i don't have a problem with them having it after working all their lives.

homeless student wrote: »

I wont be old soon by the way, im in my 20's

hahahahahahahaha, yeah right mate, i'm in my 20s to, but with the way the years ar flying it won't be long until 50 years have past and we are both old.

The Idyl Race · 08-11-2012 06:23PM

corktina wrote: »

trouble is if you DO take away the free travel for some or all of the pass holders, you probalby will be taking away a big chunk of the subsidy that allows the trains to run at all. SO, take away the free passes, everyones fares would go up or lines would close IMHO

That's a good one, so foggy_lad needs his pass and my booked seat otherwise the railways are fooked, then..remarkable

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 06:29PM

sligotrain wrote: »

I refer you to the Coras Iompair Eireann byelaws that govern the use of reserved seats on trains:

[/FONT][/SIZE]

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

So, in short, if you get asked to get out of your seat by a member of IÉ staff, you get out, and note they have the power to remove you from the train. No need to get the Guards involved.

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

in short unless the passenger without a reservation is told at the time of boarding and taking up the seat either by a card on the seat or electronic notice over the seat that it is a reserved seat they are entitled to stay in that seat for the duration of their journey.

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 06:33PM

The Idyl Race wrote: »

That's a good one, so foggy_lad needs his pass and my booked seat otherwise the railways are fooked, then..remarkable

I am entitled to yours or anyone else's booked seat if notice is not given by the board that such seats are reserved at the time of boarding. This is why boarding only starts in terminus stations a certain time before departure.

Losty Dublin · 08-11-2012 06:36PM

corktina wrote: »

it's IEs at fault if the seat is not flagged, not the hapless passenger who has to stand from Mallow to Dublin, whichever of them that turns out to be!

1) A staff member is able to give notice of the board that a seat is reserved. If s/he requests you to move then you have to move.

2) There are still a lot of people who will take up the seat which has a reservation notice displayed. It's not the fault of the company is they ignore instruction, is it?

foggy_lad · 08-11-2012 06:45PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1) A staff member is able to give notice of the board that a seat is reserved. If s/he requests you to move then you have to move.

2) There are still a lot of people who will take up the seat which has a reservation notice displayed. It's not the fault of the company is they ignore instruction, is it?

Such notice must be given before the train departs from its starting station and myself or another passenger legitimately take up a seat without a visible reservation.

The only time I would take a visibly reserved seat is if the person does not show up and take the seat themselves. In this situation the seat becomes available for anyone to use as the person that booked it must be seated before the train departs.

homeless student · 08-11-2012 06:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

yeah a couple, even if you got rid of the free travel for them it wouldn't make a difference to standing room.

maybe not, but they are, and i don't have a problem with them having it after working all their lives.

hahahahahahahaha, yeah right mate, i'm in my 20s to, but with the way the years ar flying it won't be long until 50 years have past and we are both old.

ya thats true sure 2062 is just around the corner...not

corktina · 08-11-2012 07:17PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1) A staff member is able to give notice of the board that a seat is reserved. If s/he requests you to move then you have to move.

2) There are still a lot of people who will take up the seat which has a reservation notice displayed. It's not the fault of the company is they ignore instruction, is it?

Not in that instance but that is not what I'm saying. I am talking about a seat where IE neglect to flag it as reserved. They cannot reserve retrospectively an occupied seat IMHO

The Idyl Race · 08-11-2012 07:39PM

corktina wrote: »

Not in that instance but that is not what I'm saying. I am talking about a seat where IE neglect to flag it as reserved. They cannot reserve retrospectively an occupied seat IMHO

We shall see..

Hilly Bill · 08-11-2012 07:58PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

For a general admission ticket yes I would be entitled to sit in any seat in a theatre or cinema etc which is not marked out to me as being reserved.

And Irish fail have an obligation to inform passengers Without reservations of which seats are booked and where they are booked from otherwise if these passengers sit in a seat without a reservation they are entitled to remain there for their journey even if halfway through the journey the light comes on to say reserved from the last stop.

Thats not what i asked Foggy. If its free seating then ye, you can sit where you want but if you paid for a certain seat in that theatre would you expect someone to move from the seat that you booked and paid for ? Or would you move for someone who has a ticket for that seat?

There is nothing wrong with the IR booking system, its just that some people chose to stick 2 fingers up at it and cause the problems. From what i can see is that you are just being picky just because you have an issue with IR.
Here is another question for you Foggy, If you hate Irish Rail that much and prefer the bus due to the price and its flexability then why do you travel on the train as much? and why the train instead of the bus at that time?

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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