Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The reservation only exists when it is displayed to other passengers on the train. If I sit in a seat that has no light on and no notice of reservation then once my journey starts and there is still no reservation on the seat that seat is mine for the duration of my journey! Nobody will move me without involving the Gardai and the train will be delayed while all that happens. Irish rail could also be sued very easily for taking a legitimately obtained seat from any passenger in favour of someone with a reservation when it is proven that the reservation was never highlighted to the passenger with no reservation. The reserved passenger would also need to prove they had arrived at the station 20minutes before the train departure time.

If a person has reserved a seat from the second or third stop the would they need to be at the station 20 minutes before the train departs to make sure they get their reserved seat?
If a person asks you to move and shows you the ticket with the seat number on it then its highlighted to you then. You are entitled to sit in that seat until the person that has booked that seat from a said station shows up and claims their seat. Refusing to move is just plain ignorant at that point and lacks common decency especially if its done just to have a go at Irish Rail.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

it doesn't say that. It says you may not occupy a seat that notice has been given blah blah blah,. You would need Legal Opinion on whether that means you can occupy and continue to occupy a seat where notice wasn't given. It is not clear that notice can be given after you occupy such seat

ANyway, lets stop all the making excuses for IE....their system a) doesn't work very well and b) is not enforced

The system works well enough its just some chose to ignore it out of spite.

Hilly Bill

homeless student wrote: »

they are just taking up seats for free, madness,just because a person is old doesnt mean they should be entitled to free travel.
I wont be old soon by the way, im in my 20's

Irish Rail get paid so much by the social welfare crowd to cover the OAP's .

Jamie2k9

Irish Rail get paid so much by the social welfare crowd to cover the OAP's .

They get paied but its far from the actual cost of carrying OAP and others yearly.

corktina

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The system works well enough its just some chose to ignore it out of spite.

how can you ignore a sign that isn't there?

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

it's IEs at fault if the seat is not flagged, not the hapless passenger who has to stand from Mallow to Dublin, whichever of them that turns out to be!

According to a previous post on here by a poster who travels on that route , it says that there is displays about the reservation on the trains so whats the problem?
Are you going by whats been posted on here or from personal experience?

corktina

the whole discussion is about a case where it wasn't flagged is it not? The system was either faulty or IE didn't put the right input in.

Obviously noone with any decency would occupy a seat flagged as reserved from mallow, but if it isn't flagged for some reason, then how are they to know that?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

in short unless the passenger without a reservation is told at the time of boarding and taking up the seat either by a card on the seat or electronic notice over the seat that it is a reserved seat they are entitled to stay in that seat for the duration of their journey.

Where does it say about the duration of the Journey?

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

the whole discussion is about a case where it wasn't flagged is it not? The system was either faulty or IE didn't put the right input in.

Obviously noone with any decency would occupy a seat flagged as reserved from mallow, but if it isn't flagged for some reason, then how are they to know that?

There isnt and issue with anyone sitting in a seat thats reserved but refusing to move when asked by the person that has proof that they booked it.

The only thing thats faulty is some peoples attitude towards it.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I am entitled to yours or anyone else's booked seat if notice is not given by the board that such seats are reserved at the time of boarding. This is why boarding only starts in terminus stations a certain time before departure.

You are entitled to sit in it until the time the person who has booked it wants to sit in it and then you should move.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

how can you ignore a sign that isn't there?

Ignoring the person thats standing in front of you with the ticket for that seat.

Judgement Day

I can't believe that all that's wrong with IE's rail services is the lack of enforcing seat reservations - or am I missing something?

Losty Dublin

Judgement Day wrote: »

I can't believe that all that's wrong with IE's rail services is the lack of enforcing seat reservations - or am I missing something?

I don't like the bog roll in the jacks but other than that...

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

Not in that instance but that is not what I'm saying. I am talking about a seat where IE neglect to flag it as reserved. They cannot reserve retrospectively an occupied seat IMHO

In that case then you move when you are informed that the seat is actually pre-booked or reserved by another customer. The fact is that somebody else has booked it and had the relevant ticket with the correct seat number, regardless of a sign or display.

The Idyl Race

Judgement Day wrote: »

I can't believe that all that's wrong with IE's rail services is the lack of enforcing seat reservations - or am I missing something?

No, think its a case of proud fathers wanting to say to their kids that they won on the internet today..

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats not what i asked Foggy. If its free seating then ye, you can sit where you want but if you paid for a certain seat in that theatre would you expect someone to move from the seat that you booked and paid for ? Or would you move for someone who has a ticket for that seat?

There is nothing wrong with the IR booking system, its just that some people chose to stick 2 fingers up at it and cause the problems. From what i can see is that you are just being picky just because you have an issue with IR.
Here is another question for you Foggy, If you hate Irish Rail that much and prefer the bus due to the price and its flexability then why do you travel on the train as much? and why the train instead of the bus at that time?

If I booked a seat and Irish Rail Failed to properly place my booking on the seat reservation system then that seat is not booked or reserved!

There is plenty wrong with the IR booking system it regularly doesn't work properly and I have already said I would never sit in a seat that was visibly reserved as I would not like being disturbed halfway through my journey but once seated in an unreserved seat i wil not move and the conditions of carriage are on my side.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If a person has reserved a seat from the second or third stop the would they need to be at the station 20 minutes before the train departs to make sure they get their reserved seat?

Yes as per the conditions of carriage

If a person asks you to move and shows you the ticket with the seat number on it then its highlighted to you then.

once I take a seat which has no visible reservation or booking attached to it that is my seat for the journey I am taking. any reservation must be highlighted before departure.

You are entitled to sit in that seat until the person that has booked that seat from a said station shows up and claims their seat.

Yes I agree, but only if the seat light is on to indicate it is reserved and a message with the name and from xxx station, like "H.bill From Ballybrophy", indicating that the seat is reserved from Ballybrophy

Refusing to move is just plain ignorant at that point and lacks common decency especially if its done just to have a go at Irish Rail.

Refusing to operate a booking system properly when the company is in such dire straits is bordering on criminal negligence.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There isnt and issue with anyone sitting in a seat thats reserved but refusing to move when asked by the person that has proof that they booked it.

The only thing thats faulty is some peoples attitude towards it.

Having a ticket with a seat number on it is great but worthless if the reservation has not been placed on the respective seat. If i see a seat with no booking i will sit there and if you come to me and say that is my seat i will happily move but once the train has departed the station that seat is mine!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You are entitled to sit in it until the time the person who has booked it wants to sit in it and then you should move.

There is absolutely NO obligation on any passenger who has legitimately obtained a seat to then give up that seat to someone claiming to have reserved the seat.

foggy_lad

This might sort it out!

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf

SECTION E
RESERVATIONS OF SEATS ON TRAINS
43. Reservations of seats on trains.
43.1 Iarnród Éireann (in addition to its rights by common law, statute, contract or
otherwise) reserves the right to assign to passengers the seats, which they
are to occupy.
43.2 A passenger shall not occupy a seat reserved for or assigned by Iarnród
Éireann to another passenger.
43.3 Reserved seat tickets are issued subject to the conditions and regulations
applicable to the passenger ticket to which the reserved seat ticket relates
and to the special conditions, that Iarnród Éireann is not deemed to undertake
to provide particular seats in the appropriate class, or any seats, and failure to
do so will impose no liability upon Iarnród Éireann other than to refund the
reservation fee paid.
43.4 Reserved seat tickets are valid only on production of the passenger tickets
covering the journey and must be shown to and given up as required to
Iarnród Éireann’s employees or agents.
43.5 Reserved seats must be claimed prior to the advertised departure time of the
train.
43.6 Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train.

dukedalton

I posted on here about ten pages back...in the meantime it seems to have descended into "there's someone on the internet who's wrong" territory...

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

If I booked a seat and Irish Rail Failed to properly place my booking on the seat reservation system then that seat is not booked or reserved!

There is plenty wrong with the IR booking system it regularly doesn't work properly and I have already said I would never sit in a seat that was visibly reserved as I would not like being disturbed halfway through my journey but once seated in an unreserved seat i wil not move and the conditions of carriage are on my side.

Refusing to operate a booking system properly when the company is in such dire straits is bordering on criminal negligence.

Having a ticket with a seat number on it is great but worthless if the reservation has not been placed on the respective seat. If i see a seat with no booking i will sit there and if you come to me and say that is my seat i will happily move but once the train has departed the station that seat is mine!

There is absolutely NO obligation on any passenger who has legitimately obtained a seat to then give up that seat to someone claiming to have reserved the seat.

You are blaming Irish Rail to justify someone ignorance.

I mentioned boarding at a second or third stop into the journey so they cant really get their reserved seat before the train actually gets to them can they.

You mention this
43.2 A passenger shall not occupy a seat reserved for or assigned by Iarnród
Éireann to another passenger.
When a passenger pays for a reserved seat then that seat is assigned to them by Iarnrod Eireann and is entitled to sit in that seat .

Its like a new craze on the train. It used to be the "Must get a table seat" now its "Lets claim the reserved seat".

At this stage we are just repeating ourself's so lets discuss Losty's objection to the toilet paper in the loo instead .

sligotrain

I'm old enough to remember the Izal paper in the Park Royal toilets :eek:

Anything else is pure luxury, I tell ya!

Hilly Bill

Was that the shiney paper that could break your arm ?

Sponge Bob

The state used that muck well into the 1980s apparently it was medicinal. The fact that it didnt actually absorb shíte made no difference. A note on what Izal is, it was still made 3 years ago.

Losty Dublin

sligotrain wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember the Izal paper in the Park Royal toilets :eek:

Anything else is pure luxury, I tell ya!

Or the toilets on Park Royals being locked on the local services to save time and money from needing to clean them.

Unless you owned a carriage key :cool:

H3llR4iser

Simple point of view of somebody that LEARNT to avoid the train at all costs:

1. Too expensive - as simple as it is. They have offers now, but a return Cork-Dublin ticket was 74€, simply a robbery;

2. Absurd pricing system - They insist in enforcing a silly "airline style" pricing system; Buy the ticket early and you get discounts, otherwise we'll shaft the hell out of you. I paid 60€ for a Dublin-Cork ticket a night that I missed the bus. It makes no sense whatsoever, as the one and only good characteristic of the train is that you are supposed to be able to go to the station, buy a ticket and hop on. The price should be the same, regardless if you buy a month in advance or 10 minutes before departure.

3. Too, too, too slow - Dublin - Cork takes almost 3 hours. It's completely unacceptable, 2h30' should be the absolute maximum time, aiming for 2 hours more reasonable. In ideal conditions, you can drive between the two cities in about 2h30', the train should offer a more efficient commute.

4. Rail coverage is pathetic - Two main cities like Cork and Limerick are not directly connected. Why is that? Passengers are forced to disembark, wait and in winter freeze their backsides in what is essentially a field with cows. Then IrishRail wonders why people take the bus instead.


So, in brief description of Irish Rail's service: expensive, slow, limited. Wonder why they get murdered by just about any competitor, be it planes, buses or carriages with horses?

Solair

I have also spoken to a lot of tourist who said they preferred to take busses because the railways tend to follow quite bland routes through the country compared to the road networks.

The MK4 in particular makes it really hard to see out the windows too. On a typical dull irish day, you can hardly see anything as the window tints seem to have been specified for going through Southern Spain, not Ireland.

The 22000s are far better in that regard.

However, we could have had some panoramic carriages like you find in Canada or Switzerland or New Zealand with huge windows for viewing the scenery. They'd have worked very well on East Coast routes and maybe could have even been some kind of a selling-point for the disaster that is the Western Rail Corridor, although I am not sure if that really goes through all that spectacular an area, as victorian railways tended to avoid hills.

sligotrain

The biggest advantage railways have is the potential for a much faster journey than by road. It is ludicrous that a bus can get from A to B faster than a train.

However the railway network must be upgraded to allow high speeds and single track sections must be either doubled throughout or at the very least provide for longer passing sections so that capacity is increased across the board.

Closing off lines to pay for the investment needed is an insane proposition so there needs to be a paradigm shift from the civil service (the government will do what they tell them to do) regarding railway infrastructure investment.

I am not convinced that austerity measures will pull us out of the financial mess we are in - it's like sawing off limbs to save the patient - but if we don't take action the railway network will decline to the point where the only transport option is by road.

Solair

I think we have to also be a bit realistic about the reality of how Ireland's population is spread too.

We basically have three urban areas that are of any scale i.e. Dublin, Belfast and Cork. Derry is marginal and Limerick and Galway are very small by city standards. They'd be classified as towns in most countries.

Other 'major hubs' like Sligo, Wexford, Tralee, Killarney etc are just remote towns.

That means basically Dublin-Cork is probably the only serious intercity service and by 'serious', it would be comparable to a pretty minor intercity service in Britain or on the continent and in general on routes like that the services are similar or worse than the MK4 setup on the Cork line.

Belfast and Dublin are too close together for Intercity rail to have much advantage and because of partition and the troubles there's relatively limited interaction between them anyway. People don't actually travel as much between Dublin and Belfast as you'd find between other similarly located cities in Britain or elsewhere. Business and social connections between the two places were pretty underdeveloped and largely still remain so.

That's slowly changing, but it is still impacting on relatively low uptake on cross-border services compared to what you'd expect given their proximity.

Realistically, we need to develop the Dublin-Cork line to its full potential with existing fleet and technology. Maybe push it up to 200km/h.

Replace the enterprise with a sub-fleet of 22000s and get it up to 160km/h. It's only 165km between the two cities anyway. It should be doable in less than 2 hours with correct signaling and prioritising of higher-speed access.

I can't really see the point of high speed rail to Belfast given the disconnect between the two cities and the short distance and a version of the 22000 would be an obvious choice. The line doesn't need tilt trains as it's not particularly curved/twisted and it would make more sense to have a one big maintenance facility dealing with one train type rather than some tiny weird fleet just for that line.

There must be some way of improving the signaling along the DART and commuter route with a few passing loops or something to ensure the Enteprise doesn't get stuck behind slow moving traffic.

It's a pity they never built some kind of line that would have brought Belfast and Sligo services directly into Heuston and left Connolly for DART and Commuter only.

On all the other routes, the aim should be to get things up to 160km/h as much as possible too and remove some of the overly padded out time tables.

I strongly suspect the 22000s are capable of doing a lot of the exsiting routes much more quickly than the old locomotive hauled services as they've FAR better acceleration characteristics.

A major review of timetables might be something that could quite cheaply shave a lot of time off a lot of routes.

sligotrain

The Phoenix Park tunnel is grossly underused. Could the Sligo trains be rerouted into Heuston and the Galway and Westport trains run via the more direct Mullingar-Moate-Athlone route?

Does Heuston have the capacity to take on the Sligo trains as well. It already hosts the Galway and Westport trains.

In my view the Dublin-Belfast service is a vital link between the two cities and North and South in general. I'd keep the Enterprise as it is, but agree the running speeds need to be increased.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

I have also spoken to a lot of tourist who said they preferred to take busses because the railways tend to follow quite bland routes through the country compared to the road networks.

The MK4 in particular makes it really hard to see out the windows too. On a typical dull irish day, you can hardly see anything as the window tints seem to have been specified for going through Southern Spain, not Ireland.

The 22000s are far better in that regard.

However, we could have had some panoramic carriages like you find in Canada or Switzerland or New Zealand with huge windows for viewing the scenery. They'd have worked very well on East Coast routes and maybe could have even been some kind of a selling-point for the disaster that is the Western Rail Corridor, although I am not sure if that really goes through all that spectacular an area, as victorian railways tended to avoid hills.

So you are suggesting that special viewing carriages are put onto lines which you say tourist claim to be bland?

Solair

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So you are suggesting that special viewing carriages are put onto lines which you say tourist claim to be bland?

No, but I'm saying it was a bit stupid to not to make an effort to make them good for viewing the countryside. It should have been part of the general specification as we do have some interesting rolling scenery.

On the lines that run down the east coast for example, there was a good chance to do this.

It just seems dumb not to have, a bit like the way they didn't have bike carrying space on the trains for a while and had to retrofit it!