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Murder of Marlhill, New Inn (c.1940)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13 monb


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Emailed RTÉ to see if they'll show Thou Shalt Not Kill again.
    Doubt I'll get a reply but I'll follow up

    Cathal O'Shannon died late last year so could be somewhat appropriate to run his show again for those who remember it and those who missed it first time around
    It was a very good series alright and would get decent figures if they were to show it again I'd say.
    I read the book that accompanied the series a fair few years ago and it was very interesting too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16 johnconnors


    MY uncle has the video of that program but he wouldn't let it oout of his sight for love or money. If a few people wanted to come to my place [Borrisoleigh] some evening, I could arrange for it to be shown,,


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 GleesonErenach


    HelenV wrote: »
    Hi Fragles,
    My apologies. I'm new to this 'boards' crack and mistakenly replied to Furet.
    Is there a possibility that we're related? Harry Gleeson had two sisters (one my grandmother) and as far as I know three brothers. I'd be interested to know a little more from your side but this is rather a public forum.
    I don't live in Tipperary and am therefore not privy to a lot of personal information etc. but I'm really interested in gleaning any info you might have. Can you give me an idea as to your relationship to the Caesars / Gleesons.
    The Caesars are from the Holycross area and a brother and sister of his lived there also but I'm not too sure where his actual parents came from. It would be interesting to find out.
    I'd love to hear more from you.
    HelenV
    Hello
    Dr Bourke's incredibly well researched and presented book Murder at Marlhill: Was Harry Gleeson Innocent says that Harry was óne of twelve children of Thomas Gleeson and Catherine Ceasar....he was born in 1903 near Holycross'. (page 3)


  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭The Woodcock


    I came across this thread after reading Murder at Marlhill last week, having first read it about 20 years ago. While Marcus Bourke made a good case for Gleeson's innocence, I felt there were a lot of avenues that he didn't explore.

    The most intriguing aspect for me is the issue of when and where Moll Carthy was killed, particularly the matter of the Thursday morning shots. Bourke points out that several locals heard two shots at around 9.25 a.m. on Thursday. Moll Carthy's body was found by Gleeson about half an hour afterwards. Those who heard these shots only came forward with this information after Gleeson's conviction.

    Elsewhere, however, Marcus Bourke speculates that Moll was killed in a nearby building with one shot and that the second shot was fired after her body had been carried to the place it was found. This was done to give the impression that she was killed where she was found. These two parts of Bourke's argument contradict one another i.e. were the two shots that killed here fired one after another or at separate times?

    I also think Bourke could have given more attention to the situation of the Carthy children in the immediate aftermath of the murder. Who broke the news of their mother's death to the children? Who took care of them in the days and weeks following the murder? Did this open up possibilities for the children to be manipulated? Did the children ever speak of the case in subsequent years? I think it would have been fascinating to hear their perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭The Woodcock


    I've just finished reading The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler, the novel based on the Marlhill murder case mentioned earlier in the thread. Gebler traces Moll's story right back to the days of her mother, who was a woman of ill repute and who sold her body to get by in life during the time she spent in Dublin. Moll herself lived in a children's home in Thurles for her first sixteen years and never knew her father. Gebler paints her as a very promiscious woman, even by today's moral standards, not to mind the standards of the times she lived in. For instance, she jumps into bed with Sergeant Daly almost immediately upon his arrival at New Inn Garda station. She had numerous relationships with local men, married and unmarried, and used these relationship to improve her material circumstances. Having said that, Moll was quite discreet and revealed little about her various trysts once they were over.

    According to Gebler, Moll was in a relationship with a local IRA leader, who he calls JJ Spink. He fathered her seventh and last child, who died at a young age. As with all her previously relationships, this one ended as a result of the pregnancy and the potential for scandal that surrounded it. Moll then began a relationship with Sergeant Daly, who was married, immediately upon his arrival in New Inn early in 1940. Daly's role in the Gardai was to root out the remnants of the IRA who were still active and this meant he had been stationed at several locations over the course of his career and was somewhat notorious for the rough treatment he dished out. His relationship with Moll presented a threat to Spink, who thought she might pass on information about his activties, and this provided the motive for her murder. Spink and two IRA associated brought Moll to a deserted house close to Marlhill on Wednesday evening, got her drunk, shot her and then planted her body where they knew Gleeson would find it on Thursday morning. Spink then blackmailed Sergeant Daly, threatening to reveal his relationship with Moll unless Daly was prepared to frame Harry Gleeson. Daly coached one of Moll's sons to say that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child and the whole case against Gleeson rested on this. Gebler makes no mention of locals having heard gunshots, either on Wednesday evening or Thursday morning. There are other aspects of the case that are central to Marcus Bourke's book that don't appear in The Dead Eight.

    One problem with the novel is that it is, as the author states in the afterword "a hybrid that combines some factual content with a great body of invented speculative material". The difficulty for the reader is identifying which aspects of the story are based on fact and which are speculative - frustrating if you want a clear factual account of the case but a good device from the author's perspective as Gebler cannot be accused of inventing facts or blackening the names of real people. It is interesting to note that Gebler got a lot encouragement from Marcus Bourke when decidig to write the novel. I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.

    Two things jumped out at me in particular. One is a letter from Miss Cooney of Garranlea House to John Timoney, Gleeson's solictor, written over a year after the execution. Miss Cooney states that Moll's son admitted to her that he had been coached by Sergeant Daly to give testimony against Gleeson i.e. that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child. I presume this is factual and based on an authentic letter.
    There is also an account of a confession made by one of Moll's killers to her son and grandson in 1966. The man was terminally ill at te time. I'd love to know if this is a purely speculative account or based on something that Gebler would have heard from Moll's surviving relatives.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭GullibleOne


    I've just finished reading The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler, the novel based on the Marlhill murder case mentioned earlier in the thread. Gebler traces Moll's story right back to the days of her mother, who was a woman of ill repute and who sold her body to get by in life during the time she spent in Dublin. Moll herself lived in a children's home in Thurles for her first sixteen years and never knew her father. Gebler paints her as a very promiscious woman, even by today's moral standards, not to mind the standards of the times she lived in. For instance, she jumps into bed with Sergeant Daly almost immediately upon his arrival at New Inn Garda station. She had numerous relationships with local men, married and unmarried, and used these relationship to improve her material circumstances. Having said that, Moll was quite discreet and revealed little about her various trysts once they were over.

    According to Gebler, Moll was in a relationship with a local IRA leader, who he calls JJ Spink. He fathered her seventh and last child, who died at a young age. As with all her previously relationships, this one ended as a result of the pregnancy and the potential for scandal that surrounded it. Moll then began a relationship with Sergeant Daly, who was married, immediately upon his arrival in New Inn early in 1940. Daly's role in the Gardai was to root out the remnants of the IRA who were still active and this meant he had been stationed at several locations over the course of his career and was somewhat notorious for the rough treatment he dished out. His relationship with Moll presented a threat to Spink, who thought she might pass on information about his activties, and this provided the motive for her murder. Spink and two IRA associated brought Moll to a deserted house close to Marlhill on Wednesday evening, got her drunk, shot her and then planted her body where they knew Gleeson would find it on Thursday morning. Spink then blackmailed Sergeant Daly, threatening to reveal his relationship with Moll unless Daly was prepared to frame Harry Gleeson. Daly coached one of Moll's sons to say that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child and the whole case against Gleeson rested on this. Gebler makes no mention of locals having heard gunshots, either on Wednesday evening or Thursday morning. There are other aspects of the case that are central to Marcus Bourke's book that don't appear in The Dead Eight.

    One problem with the novel is that it i
    s, as the author states in the afterword "a hybrid that combines some factual content with a great body of invented speculative material". The difficulty for the reader is identifying which aspects of the story are based on fact and which are speculative - frustrating if you want a clear factual account of the case but a good device from the author's perspective as Gebler cannot be accused of inventing facts or blackening the names of real people. It is interesting to note that Gebler got a lot encouragement from Marcus Bourke when decidig to write the novel. I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.

    Two things jumped out at me in particular. One is a letter from Miss Cooney of Garranlea House to John Timoney, Gleeson's solictor, written over a year after the execution. Miss Cooney states that Moll's son admitted to her that he had been coached by Sergeant Daly to give testimony against Gleeson i.e. that Gleeson was the father of Moll's last child. I presume this is factual and based on an authentic letter.
    There is also an account of a confession made by one of Moll's killers to her son and grandson in 1966. The man was terminally ill at te time. I'd love to know if this is a purely speculative account or based on something that Gebler would have heard from Moll's surviving relatives.
    The problem is it is a novel and there is no way to know how much is true or based on truth
    I am certain Marcus Bourke knew a lot about the case that wasn't included in his own book for legal or other reasons.
    very possible and because this is a novel he is not as constrained but still the truth in it is speculative


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

    Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

    However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

    I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

    Kieran Fagan.

    (kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)


  • Registered Users Posts: 89 ✭✭The Woodcock


    kfagan99 wrote: »
    Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

    Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

    However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

    I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

    Kieran Fagan.

    (kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)

    I agree. If one reads between the lines of Murder at Marlhill the author does make a lot of hints and suggestions about what really happened. He alludes to IRA activity in the area and mentions the fact that Sgt. Daly was aware of Moll's imminent death the night before her murder (he blurted this out when drunk in a local pub).

    I think the provenance of the Thursday morning shots would have to be addressed in any factual evalution of the case. If these were not the shots which killed Moll, then where did they come from?

    Just wondering if you have been able to gain access to Timoney's & MacBride's papers/correspondence in relation to the case? I think they would be crucial sources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭slievenamon fella


    any one know if any of the bookshops in clonmel have the dead eight in stock?


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭yes chance


    adalton95 wrote: »
    After Just This evening studying all the inns and outs of this case by a man who has studied the case for over 50 years , And not fictional based stories but hard facts that if had been bought to the court in 1940 would have seen the Harry Gleeson case thrown out of court , I firmly ,strongly in both heart and head no that Harry Gleeson was framed in cold blood ..
    who is this


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 adalton95


    yes chance wrote: »
    who is this

    Who informed me ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭yes chance


    adalton95 wrote: »
    Who informed me ?
    yes you seem to say you have new evidence. are you going to enlighten us?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    kfagan99 wrote: »
    Marcus Bourke did know more than he told us, but he left clues for those who read Murder at Marlhill carefully.

    Carlo Gebler wrote The Dead Eight, a very gripping fictional account, and he has the overall truth of the matter. I recommend it to anyone interested in the case.

    However examining a fictional text in detail is not the way to solve the mystery of what happened in New Inn in November 1940.

    I'm trying to answer the big questions of fact in a book to be published next year.

    Kieran Fagan.

    (kfagan99@yahoo.com, if anyone has any information to share)

    Please keep us updated on the status of your book.

    Being related to a couple of families in the Marlhill area, I took great interest in this case, but singularly failed to elicit any information or even opinion from those who were alive at the time of the murder.
    All I met with was silence.
    None of those are now alive unfortunately, so I am left with the feeling that there was more buried about this than was ever revealed.

    IMO, they have all taken the truth to their graves, and what little is available on which to base a new interpretation is insufficient for any definite conclusion. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    I hope to have some news of a new book on the subject by the end of March 2013, and will post it here as soon as I am certain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭Hallyington


    My entire family (fathers side) are from marlhill in new inn, I lived there myself for 4-5 months when i was maybe 13.

    I had a book on the murder, Do you have it OP? I think it's just the murder at marlfield or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    Not sure what OP means.

    The book is called Murder at Marlhill by Marcus Bourke and is published by Geography Publications.
    www.geographypublications.com/Share
    24 Kennington Road, Templeogue, Dublin 6W Tel: +353 (1) 4566085. Email: books@geographypublications.com.

    I am hoping to have published my own book on the subject later this year.

    Regards Kieran Fagan, kfagan99@yahoo.com


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    kfagan99 wrote: »
    Not sure what OP means.

    The book is called Murder at Marlhill by Marcus Bourke and is published by Geography Publications.
    www.geographypublications.com/Share
    24 Kennington Road, Templeogue, Dublin 6W Tel: +353 (1) 4566085. Email: books@geographypublications.com.

    I am hoping to have published my own book on the subject later this year.

    Regards Kieran Fagan, kfagan99@yahoo.com

    OP = opening poster (the person who started this discussion in this case)


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    My book on this is delayed. I shall update this when I have better news. Kieran Fagan


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 holly m


    I am glad someone has taken an interest in this case because all the comments are very old.I really believe there was a miscarriage of justice here and I hope Harry Gleesons' name will be cleared in the future


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 holly m


    Maybe she was afraid to tell the truth


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4 holly m


    Have you published your book yet as i am interested in reading


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    No news yet, but I remain hopeful and will update here when I have some.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 holly m


    Have you ever contacted any of the McCarthy family about the events that happened


  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭Lawstudent007


    There will be a story in today's leading newspaper on Harry Gleeson!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 parkhursttree


    What paper would that be?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18 dasanimal


    Its in the independent i believe


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    It's also on the TippFM news
    Cold-case review of 1940’s Tipperary murder.
    [SIZE="-1"]09 Sep, 2013.[/SIZE]

    A South Tipperary farmer executed for the murder of a mother of 7 over 72 years ago could be exonerated by the state.

    The Office of the Attorney General has appointed a team to review of the case of Harry Gleeson who was convicted for the death of Mary Moll McCarthy in 1940.

    In a case that divided a close knit community -the body of the mother of 7 was discovered by Mr Gleeson in a remote part of his uncle's farm in New Inn on the 21th of November 1940.
    He was subsequently convicted of her murder and put to death days after Taoiseach Eamon DeValera rejected a mercy plea.
    In the subsequent years Harry Glesson's family have campaigned to clear his name and say they have new forensic evidence to clear his name.
    They turned to the Irish Innocence Project- part of a world wide wrongful conviction organisation who lobbied the Justice Minister who subsequently sanctioned the cold case review..
    A decision on a pardon may be made within a matter of months

    www.tippfm.com/news/detail/cold_case_review_of_1940s_tipperary_murder


  • Registered Users Posts: 139 ✭✭HelenV


    This is a fantastic development.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 kfagan99


    Congratulations to the Justice for Harry Gleeson group whose splendid work looks like achieving a pardon.

    I expect to have news of a publisher for Hung Out To Die, my book which will identify who killed Moll Carthy (Mary McCarthy) and how they got away with it shortly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    kfagan99 wrote: »
    Congratulations to the Justice for Harry Gleeson group whose splendid work looks like achieving a pardon.

    I expect to have news of a publisher for Hung Out To Die, my book which will identify who killed Moll Carthy (Mary McCarthy) and how they got away with it shortly.

    Good to hear it is nearing release!

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/a-murder-a-hanging-and-a-pardon-72-years-too-late-29563249.html


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