Murder of Marlhill, New Inn (c.1940)

The Woodcock

GoodLord wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/a-murder-a-hanged-man-and-a-plea-of-innocence-from-the-grave-26734944.html

has anyone got the book named in above?. Or the thou shalt not kill episode about the case?

All of the public libraries in Tipperary have Murder at Marlhill by Marcus Bourke and Carlo Gebler's The Dead Eight in stock.

The one I would really like to get my hands on is The Farcical Trial of Harry Gleeson which was published privately and I assume is not widely available.

As well as the Thou Shalt not Kill programme, I recall that the case also featured on the TG4 series 'Ceart agus Coir'.

GoodLord

The Woodcock wrote: »

All of the public libraries in Tipperary have Murder at Marlhill by Marcus Bourke and Carlo Gebler's The Dead Eight in stock.

The one I would really like to get my hands on is The Farcical Trial of Harry Gleeson which was published privately and I assume is not widely available.

As well as the Thou Shalt not Kill programme, I recall that the case also featured on the TG4 series 'Ceart agus Coir'.

i have the marcus bourke book. would not bother with the fiction one
The Farcical Trial of Harry Gleeson by Bill O'Connor is the one i want. Who is Bill O'Connor ?

I recall that the case also featured on the TG4 series 'Ceart agus Coir'

quick search no hits

The Woodcock

GoodLord wrote: »

Is there anywhere else it can be seen from, any other road through marlhill? Where is the graveyard shown in the Prime Time report?

Edit:- Is this the area?

That is the general area in the photograph all right. As you travel south along the M8 (in the direction the camera is pointing) after about 500m you pass over Ceaser's Lane with the site where the body was found in the fields to the left and the site of Moll's cottage on the right.

Not sure how well these links to Bing maps will work, but the first is the area described above with the site of Moll's cottage on the left and the second shows Garralea cemetery about 1km to the north-west of Marlhill.

http://binged.it/1AiRYnX

http://binged.it/1tMLAkz

GoodLord

The Woodcock wrote: »

That is the general area in the photograph all right. As you travel south along the M8 (in the direction the camera is pointing) after about 500m you pass over Ceaser's Lane with the site where the body was found in the fields to the left and the site of Moll's cottage on the right.

Not sure how well these links to Bing maps will work, but the first is the area described above with the site of Moll's cottage on the left and the second shows Garralea cemetery about 1km to the north-west of Marlhill.

http://binged.it/1AiRYnX

http://binged.it/1tMLAkz

fter about 500m you pass over Ceaser's Lane with the site where the body was found in the fields to the left and the site of Moll's cottage on the right.

that would be about from the first car near camera on left to the blue sign on left?,Cant slow down to look on M8 though

Bing maps worked thanks. How would you get off the motorway to the graveyard/cottage

Johnboy1951

Interesting reads

http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/local-news/was-harry-gleeson-innocent-1-2270211

http://megsmoonshine.hubpages.com/hub/Harry-Gleeson-Innocent-or-Guilty

The Woodcock

GoodLord wrote: »

that would be about from the first car near camera on left to the blue sign on left?,Cant slow down to look on M8 though

Bing maps worked thanks. How would you get off the motorway to the graveyard/cottage

It would be well beyond the blue sign in fact.

To get to the area, come off the motorway at Junction 9 or Junction 10 and head for New Inn. In the centre of New Inn take the road to Golden. About a mile from New Inn you cross over the M8. The first left after this brings you down to where the cottage was. The second left leads to the cemetery, which is back from the road and difficult to access.

Johnboy1951

The Woodcock wrote: »

It would be well beyond the blue sign in fact.

To get to the area, come off the motorway at Junction 9 or Junction 10 and head for New Inn. In the centre of New Inn take the road to Golden. About a mile from New Inn you cross over the M8. The first left after this brings you down to where the cottage was. The second left leads to the cemetery, which is back from the road and difficult to access.

The Caesar's cottage was in on the left as you travel towards Knockgraffon, IIRC, but I do not recall McCarthy's cottage ever being pointed out to me. (or maybe I am getting them mixed up?)
I don't remember any lane at the time either, but might have missed it while driving and maybe stopped where I could get a view over the hedge rather than at the lane.

GoodLord

Originally Posted by johnconnors
In the docuementary ,''Mystery at Marlhill'', a nurse [or care attendant] told how she went to the bedside of a dying patient, in the nurseing home where she worked. The dying patient was a daughter of Moll Carthy and she told this nurse that she saw her mother kill on their kitchen floor -and that a man who was entirely innocent was hanged for it.

was this the TG4 documentary 'Ceart agus Coir' ?. It was also in Prime Time

GoodLord

The Woodcock wrote: »

It would be well beyond the blue sign in fact.

To get to the area, come off the motorway at Junction 9 or Junction 10 and head for New Inn. In the centre of New Inn take the road to Golden. About a mile from New Inn you cross over the M8. The first left after this brings you down to where the cottage was. The second left leads to the cemetery, which is back from the road and difficult to access.

This says a bungalow is now on the site. How does that leave the bing maps? Are they old?

GoodLord

The Woodcock wrote: »

It would be well beyond the blue sign in fact.

To get to the area, come off the motorway at Junction 9 or Junction 10 and head for New Inn. In the centre of New Inn take the road to Golden. About a mile from New Inn you cross over the M8. The first left after this brings you down to where the cottage was. The second left leads to the cemetery, which is back from the road and difficult to access.

would it before the road veers to the right?

Roman Emperor

I bought Marcus Bourke's book years ago but I can't find it now.

I wonder if anyone could post a few pictures of the O/S maps that were reproduced in the book.

GoodLord

I was reading it this evening. Will put them up tomorrow if ok by mods.

I found it strange when he found the body he did not go near it as the dog was growling but he was used to dogs all his life and in fact carried off the dog when the guards came

Also he said she could be sleeping when asked if she were dead. Why would you go for the guards if somone was sleeping

HelenV

GoodLord wrote: »

I was reading it this evening. Will put them up tomorrow if ok by mods.

I found it strange when he found the body he did not go near it as the dog was growling but he was used to dogs all his life and in fact carried off the dog when the guards came

Also he said she could be sleeping when asked if she were dead. Why would you go for the guards if somone was sleeping

Didn't he go to the Caesar house first? There was IRA activity in the area at the time so no doubt people were cautious what they said. Did you not think it was strange that the guards handed him the dog which was no doubt covered in blood ?

GoodLord

HelenV wrote: »

Didn't he go to the Caesar house first? There was IRA activity in the area at the time so no doubt people were cautious what they said. Did you not think it was strange that the guards handed him the dog which was no doubt covered in blood ?

Didn't he go to the Caesar house first?

yes and there seems to be slight difference about what he said there between Primtime "Moll Carty is dead above in the field and half her face is missing" and marcus bourke book "he did not wait long enough to recognise Moll"
If Prime Time is right then how come he did not know who it was when he got to the garda station

Did you not think it was strange that the guards handed him the dog which was no doubt covered in blood

yes. Verystrange he was let near the body but MB book also says he walked to the body in a way he had been told not to by the guard

HelenV

GoodLord wrote: »

yes and there seems to be slight difference about what he said there between Primtime "Moll Carty is dead above in the field and half her face is missing" and marcus bourke book "he did not wait long enough to recognise Moll"
If Prime Time is right then how come he did not know who it was when he got to the garda station

yes. Verystrange he was let near the body but MB book also says he walked to the body in a way he had been told not to by the guard

Was it garda evidence HG walked to the body or HG's? What pg did you get that from please?

GoodLord

HelenV wrote: »

Was it garda evidence HG walked to the body or HG's? What pg did you get that from please?

page 24
"walked to the body ". I should have written "crossed by the gap",sorry
He [Gleeson] had brought a sheet and they used it to cover the body. I assume Gleeson is one of the "they"

HelenV

GoodLord wrote: »

page 24
"walked to the body ". I should have written "crossed by the gap",sorry
He [Gleeson] had brought a sheet and they used it to cover the body. I assume Gleeson is one of the "they"

I think your mistakenly taking the evidence of Gda Joseph Ruth which, begins on the previous page, as being fact. Gda Ruth says HG crossed over - Gleeson himself never said any such thing. It's an easy mistake to make to be fair.

GoodLord

HelenV wrote: »

I think your mistakenly taking the evidence of Gda Joseph Ruth which, begins on the previous page, as being fact. Gda Ruth says HG crossed over - Gleeson himself never said any such thing. It's an easy mistake to make to be fair.

yes sorry. i did quote the garda. i did not realise when i posted that that harry did not say it. i would not necessarily take the garda word as fact

Roman Emperor

GoodLord wrote: »

I was reading it this evening. Will put them up tomorrow if ok by mods.

I found it strange when he found the body he did not go near it as the dog was growling but he was used to dogs all his life and in fact carried off the dog when the guards came

Also he said she could be sleeping when asked if she were dead. Why would you go for the guards if somone was sleeping

Thank you for posting the maps...I appreciate that.

Over the next two or three days I hope to compare them with modern satellite imagery to try to pinpoint exactly where the locations are in relation to the changed landscape.

When I bought Marcus Bourke's book all those years ago it was just another interesting story.

When I revisited the Gleeson affair a few weeks ago it was primarily because of my interest in maps and mapping, but just last week I discovered, quite by accident, that my neighbour is closely related to Harry Gleeson. So now I have a twofold interest.

Your map shows a bunch of arrows, labeled A to E concentrated in a small area....is this the place where Mary McCarthy's body was found ?

GoodLord

Roman Emperor wrote: »

Thank you for posting the maps...I appreciate that.

Over the next two or three days I hope to compare them with modern satellite imagery to try to pinpoint exactly where the locations are in relation to the changed landscape.

When I bought Marcus Bourke's book all those years ago it was just another interesting story.

When I revisited the Gleeson affair a few weeks ago it was primarily because of my interest in maps and mapping, but just last week I discovered, quite by accident, that my neighbour is closely related to Harry Gleeson. So now I have a twofold interest.

Your map shows a bunch of arrows, labeled A to E concentrated in a small area....is this the place where Mary McCarthy's body was found ?

I am not sure, maybe someone else can confirm

GoodLord

Finished re reading it. It transpires Reid did hear shots when in Harry's company page 104 but Mrs Caesar on confirming Harry and Reid had nothing to do with it told them both not to talk to the garda[page 104 "she issued her orders as she always did in that house"] In so doing she was as much a part of the conspiracy of silence as the rest of the community. If it had been some other innocent and they followed her orders they would do to him what the community did to Harry

i believe, and Reid confirmed, page 105 that Harry recognised Moll and went to the house. The Prime time report says he said "Moll Carty is dead above in the field and half her face is missing" which suggest he knew her without a full face. Because she did not want any involvement with Moll either Mrs Caeser may have told him to go to the garda but say he did not know who it was. Maybe she said to say the dog was on her face.

I find it hard to believe a man who had dogs all his life was afraid of or could not control Moll's dog

If Mrs Caesar had told the solicitors she told Harry and Reid not to talk to the guards and stay away from them she would probably have been called by defence.

Or did Macbride know and is that why the Caesars were not called? Macbride hinted 35 years later that Harry was someplace else page 105

Reid lied in the district court hearing in Clonmel when he gave a different account of the period between 6.30-7pm on the Wednesday Page 26 vpage 104. No mention of that on Prime Time. The garda should not have hit Reid but he should not have lied in court. In the account of the trial in Dublin it says Reid was a very difficult witness. Seemingly on the order of Mrs Caesar and possibly on threat from garda

She would have been possibly found to have perverted the course of justice,if such a charge existed then and Harry and Reid may have been foiund to have lied.But Harry would not have been hanged

No one seemed to want to tell all the truth and all wanted to blame Moll,the IRA and the Guards

None of that makes Harry a killer but his own did as much as anyone to hang him,litertally

GoodLord

why was harry brought up by a maternal uncle and then moved to his other uncle. MB book says hew was born to prosperity, what happened his own parents.

I find it unusual a man of 38 would be working for no wage on uncertain the possibility of inheriting the farm eventually

mikeymouse

if you want to see the changes to the landscape over the years go to
maps.osi.ie/publicviewer
and use the slider on the right to alternate between the old 25" map and
present 'street view'
Mccarthys cottage has been replaced by a house further back from the road
and Ceasers house is gone.
The motorway now runs down between her house and where her body was found

GoodLord

mikeymouse wrote: »

if you want to see the changes to the landscape over the years go to
maps.osi.ie/publicviewer
and use the slider on the right to alternate between the old 25" map and
present 'street view'
Mccarthys cottage has been replaced by a house further back from the road
and Ceasers house is gone.
The motorway now runs down between her house and where her body was found

is it new inn to search for? Is that the closest address?

mikeymouse

yes Goodlord,
take the road to golden west from New Inn,
first left after crossing motorway
the co-ords of Molls house are ; X,Y 605741,632014

Roman Emperor

GoodLord wrote: »

is it new inn to search for? Is that the closest address?

On the OSI page go to publicviewer

Next, go to SEARCH / COOORDINATE

In the X box, type 606402

In the Y box, type 632179

Click on ZOOM TO

This will give you the location of the Caeser household.

Enter 605746/632017 for Mary McCarthy's house or 605238/633369 to locate Garranlea graveyard.

GoodLord

mikeymouse wrote: »

yes Goodlord,
take the road to golden west from New Inn,
first left after crossing motorway
the co-ords of Molls house are ; X,Y 605741,632014

Thanks for the co ords. where is the area in the pic?

mikeymouse

I think it's the lane off caesars lane that runs south along motorway and goes back under motorway

mikeymouse

there's a sort of ditch in the background of your photo
i think this is where the body was found
google.co.uk/maps/@52.4376467,-7.9111569,485m/data=!3m1!1e3
sorry I can't post links

mikeymouse

or paste this into google and see if it works;

google.co.uk/maps/@52.436915,-7.911966,3a,40.5y,99.79h,84.08t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sivn_HWUAN4BjZEgXTuGvOQ!2e0