Murder of Marlhill, New Inn (c.1940)

Lawstudent007

GoodLord wrote: »

i said mrs c had some responsibilty as did tommy. and it was you who began wasting your time i did not ask you. MB says reid told himharry was lying whenhe said he did not recognise moll. You were not talking to reid, you like toplay lawyer but do not like it when you lack of legal knowledge is shown

I didn't waste my time at all. I tried to outline the facts to you so you could get a bigger picture, instead of nitpicking on certain things you read in a book.

You obviously spoke to Reid to confirm that everything Marcus Bourke wrote in his book was true and absolutely correct? And there is evidence, hard evidence, that Tommy Reid in fact told Marcus Bourke that Harry was lying? Your knowledge of how legal procedures and evidence works are outstanding. Keep up the good work.

GoodLord

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

I didn't waste my time at all. I tried to outline the facts to you so you could get a bigger picture, instead of nitpicking on certain things you read in a book.

You obviously spoke to Reid to confirm that everything Marcus Bourke wrote in his book was true and absolutely correct? And there is evidence, hard evidence, that Tommy Reid in fact told Marcus Bourke that Harry was lying? Your knowledge of how legal procedures and evidence works are outstanding. Keep up the good work.

if you have evidence the book is incorrect then conmtact the publisher

Your knowledge of how legal procedures and evidence works are outstanding.

as defined by a law student

instead of nitpicking on certain things you read in a book.

maybe there would have been a different outcome if all things were looked.
If it comes to that all you have are records created in the 1940's that you read inn the national archive

Roman Emperor

Lawstudent007.....I haven't read the trial transcripts and it's ten years or more since I read the book.

I would be interested to know if there was any speculation, at the trial or in the book, as to why Mary McCarthy would have walked more than seven hundred yards across four or five fields in the dark.

Did anyone think it strange or unusual at all ?

mikeymouse

I think it was where she 'did her business '
she had 2 room house full of kids

Lawstudent007

Roman Emperor wrote: »

Lawstudent007.....I haven't read the trial transcripts and it's ten years or more since I read the book.

I would be interested to know if there was any speculation, at the trial or in the book, as to why Mary McCarthy would have walked more than seven hundred yards across four or five fields in the dark.

Did anyone think it strange or unusual at all ?

My understanding is that it wasn't unusual for Mary McCarthy to leave the house after dinner time. Maybe that's why the there wasn't much focus on her doings at night. As far as I remember, there was no questions asked as to why she would walk over so many fields in the dark and I don't recall at this moment in time whether this issue was raised in the book.

Speculation has it that she was meeting someone - business related, and some suggest, particularly the State, that she was meeting Harry and that it was then that he committed the crime.

mikeymouse

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

My understanding is that it wasn't unusual for Mary McCarthy to leave the house after dinner time. Maybe that's why the there wasn't much focus on her doings at night. As far as I remember, there was no questions asked as to why she would walk over so many fields in the dark and I don't recall at this moment in time whether this issue was raised in the book.

Speculation has it that she was meeting someone - business related, and some suggest, particularly the State, that she was meeting Harry and that it was then that he committed the crime.

like I said, in fewer words

Lawstudent007

mikeymouse wrote: »

like I said, in fewer words

Sorry. I didn't see your reply.

Roman Emperor

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

...Speculation has it that she was meeting someone - business related, and some suggest, particularly the State, that she was meeting Harry and that it was then that he committed the crime.

Seems rather odd that she would traverse a maze of fields in the dark, to do "business" with someone who would likewise have to cross a maze of fields.

One would have thought the ringfort just across the road from her house would have been more convenient.

Do you know if Mr Caesar's gun and Mr Fitzgerald's gun were forensically tested or do you know if any spent cartridges were recovered from the scene ?

Also, do you know if any fingerprint evidence was presented in court ?

Sorry for being a nuisance !

GoodLord

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

Sorry. I didn't see your reply.

Is Timoney's professional file on the case in the National archive?

HelenV

GoodLord wrote: »

Is Timoney's professional file on the case in the National archive?

I know I'm no legal expert but what would a solicitor's file be doing in the National Archives?

Lawstudent007

Roman Emperor wrote: »

Seems rather odd that she would traverse a maze of fields in the dark, to do "business" with someone who would likewise have to cross a maze of fields.

One would have thought the ringfort just across the road from her house would have been more convenient.

Do you know if Mr Caesar's gun and Mr Fitzgerald's gun were forensically tested or do you know if any spent cartridges were recovered from the scene ?

Also, do you know if any fingerprint evidence was presented in court ?

Sorry for being a nuisance !

You're not a nuisance. Well, Mary could have done business anywhere really. Speculation has it that she wasn't killed where she was found. According to the way her clothes was arranged it seems as if she was dragged to where she was found.

Mr. Ceasers gun was submitted as evidence in court. I don't think it was forensically tested per se but it was mentioned that it was cleaned recently as the cleaning rod had traces of fresh gun powder residue on it. Mr. Fitzgerald's gun was not tested as his evidence and statement only came about after the trial.

A load of spent cartridges was found at the scene, many of them very old and some of them recently spent. However, no one could definitively say that the 'recent' cartridges were from the night/ early morning Mary was shot.

No fingerprint evidence was used in court.

GoodLord

Roman Emperor wrote: »

Seems rather odd that she would traverse a maze of fields in the dark, to do "business" with someone who would likewise have to cross a maze of fields.

One would have thought the ringfort just across the road from her house would have been more convenient.

Do you know if Mr Caesar's gun and Mr Fitzgerald's gun were forensically tested or do you know if any spent cartridges were recovered from the scene ?

Also, do you know if any fingerprint evidence was presented in court ?

Sorry for being a nuisance !

Supt Daniel Stapleton gave evidence of experiments with caesar's gun with cartridges given by caesar. He said 2 of the cartridges found in the vicinity had been used recently and could have been fired from caesars gun on the wednesday 20 November. But under cross examination conceded they could have been fired any time back to the to 14 November

Marcus Bourke says no identifying labels were found on the cartridges found by the garda. In 1992 in new inn test were caried out with ammunition from the1940's identical to that caesar's gun used in a gun similar top caesar's. In nearly all of the tests the labels survived

Also police photos show one of the two cartridges the state claimed were used to kill moll with the copper end up. Tests with dozens of 1940's cartridges showed that cartridges never have the copper end upwards. MB asks if the cartridges were staged for the photos

GoodLord

HelenV wrote: »

I know I'm no legal expert but what would a solicitor's file be doing in the National Archives?

I don't know what would be in the National archives

HelenV

GoodLord wrote: »

I don't know what would be in the National archives

State papers and records I'd have thought.

Stuttgart

I only live five minutes down the road from New Inn, but have only come across this case relatively recently. Having read the Bourke and Gebler books, I decided to go for a little tour of the sites, duly guided by some of the posts on here.

As has been mentioned, there isn't a wild amount to see. Moll's house is all but gone, with a new house having been built further back on the plot (which remains laid out the same as it was during Moll's time). Caeser's lane is still there and it can be walked down. It now goes under the motorway, but once out on the other side, you can jump over the fence on the right hand side and the pump that Moll used to draw water from is still there in decent shape. It is now hooked up to a bath for cattle to drink from. If you continue to the top of the lane and into the adjoining field, the site where Caesar's farm used to be is very clear to see if using the map, for all that it is just a field now with no obvious signs of a building having been there. I kept going along that ditch in an effort to find the mass path, but one side of the double ditch has been removed at the that end of it at least, so there is no real sign of it.

Back on road, I headed for Garranlea House which is only a few minutes away back towards Golden. I was perhaps a bit bold and drove straight in and parked by the graveyard, which is directly in front of you as you drive in, only 50 yards or so from the road, and it has a little blue access gate. There are probably 10 gravestones that I could see, some of which are leaning or knocked over, and reading them was difficult. I did see some Keatings (the original owners of Garranlea, I believe) and some O'Connells, but no sign of Moll. I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows the story with the big pillar that is erected in the graveyard which is engraved, but I couldn't make it out.

An interesting morning all told, for all that it would be nice if there was a bit more left to see, but such is the nature of progress.

kfagan99

Further to Stuttgart's interesting post on visiting the above ... it would be a courtesy to ask Jim Parkinson, the farmer who lives just down the road, and who is a very pleasant and approachable man for permission to do so. I'm not saying that wasn't done on the occasion Stuttgart described, just that as Jim owns the land, it is better for people wishing to have a look around to know that he does, and seek his permission first. Regards Kieran Fagan.

PS I put my full name to these posts and I suggest it would be good if others did the same. Sometimes I feel like I'm at a masked ball.

Stuttgart

Agreed with that, Kieran. I have had cattle dealings with Jim before and he is a gent.

mollymaloney

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

You're not a nuisance. Well, Mary could have done business anywhere really. Speculation has it that she wasn't killed where she was found. According to the way her clothes was arranged it seems as if she was dragged to where she was found.

Moll crossed the fields to set and check rabbit snares, I believe

FURET

Stuttgart wrote: »

There are probably 10 gravestones that I could see, some of which are leaning or knocked over, and reading them was difficult. I did see some Keatings (the original owners of Garranlea, I believe) and some O'Connells, but no sign of Moll. I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows the story with the big pillar that is erected in the graveyard which is engraved, but I couldn't make it out.

I have a tip for reading faded engravings.

1. Use a wire brush to carefully scrub away the lichen.
2. Smear a large amount of shaving foam over the headstone, especially over the engravings.
3. Wipe with a window wiper blade.

The excess foam will be removed leaving some foam in the text crevases, making the lettering easier to read.

Lawstudent007

I am led to believe that a decision from the Department of Justice, regarding the posthumous pardon application made by The Irish Innocence Project and The Justice for Harry Gleeson Group, will be made within a few weeks.

Meathlass

FURET wrote: »

I have a tip for reading faded engravings.

1. Use a wire brush to carefully scrub away the lichen.
2. Smear a large amount of shaving foam over the headstone, especially over the engravings.
3. Wipe with a window wiper blade.

The excess foam will be removed leaving some foam in the text crevases, making the lettering easier to read.

God, don't do this! Using a wire brush will lead to the obliteration of the engraving. The chemicals in the shaving foam will eat away at the stone and the lichen itself actually protects the headstone. Most graveyards are national monuments and it's forbidden to carry out any works there without authorisation.

First check the local library, someone may already have enscribed the details in past years when they were easier to read.

The Heritage Council publish an excellent booklet dealing with the care of old headstones. Look at P19 onwards and P.34 for some suggestions. http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/Archaeology/Guidance_Historic_Graveyards.pdf

Lawstudent007

Harry Gleeson exonerated. Rte news tonight at 6pm

The Woodcock

Great news

Details here for those who won't be near a television in the next hour

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671543-pardon-harry-gleeson/

Stuttgart

Great news. Well done to all those that campaigned for justice and kept interest in the case alive.

HelenV

The Woodcock wrote: »

Great news

Details here for those who won't be near a television in the next hour

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0109/671543-pardon-harry-gleeson/

Best news ever - well done to all who worked so hard to achieve this outcome.

Great start to 2015.

Lawstudent007

Stuttgart wrote: »

Great news. Well done to all those that campaigned for justice and kept interest in the case alive.

Was a long journey - submissions have been made to the Department of Juctice for over two and a half years.

None of this was possible without the Justice for Harry Gleeson Group.

Happy that justice finally prevailed.

Rest in peace Harry Gleeson.

Tertius van Eeden
Irish Innocence Project

grey_so_what

Lawstudent007 wrote: »

Was a long journey - submissions have been made to the Department of Juctice for over two and a half years.

None of this was possible without the Justice for Harry Gleeson Group.

Happy that justice finally prevailed.

Rest in peace Harry Gleeson.

Tertius van Eeden
Irish Innocence Project

Great news!!

Well done to all concerned, what a wonderful achievement to secure a mans innocence...

Johnboy1951

Congrats to all concerned!

kfagan99

My book The Framing of Harry Gleeson will be published in April 2015 by Collins Press.

cofy

That's great news, I'm looking forward to it.