Murder of Marlhill, New Inn (c.1940)

Brian Og

I am interested in finding out any information people might have (maybe family stories, rumours, etc.) about the "Murder of Marlhill" in November 1940, which a local woman, Mary "Moll" McCarthy was murdered in a field near Marlhill and her neighbour Harry Gleeson was arrested, charged, convicted of the murder and hanged in Mountjoy Jail in April 1941, in possibly the greatest miscarriage of justice this country has ever saw.

All people directly involved with the murder are now deceased but the name of Harry Gleeson has not yet been cleared despite efforts to secure a posthumous pardon from the State by Noel Davern TD in 1995. The case has fascinated many, including barrister for Harry Gleeson, the late Sean McBride who believed in the innocence of Gleeson until his death.

If you've any info you'd like to share, please post it here or if of a sensitive nature, send it via PM or email.


Anyone interested in finding out about the case should obtain a copy of:

• Murder At Marlhill: Was Harry Gleeson Innocent, Bourke Marcus, Geography Publications, Dublin, 1993. (Available locally at The Bookworm in Thurles)
• An RTE documentary, part of the Thou Shalt not Kill series, made in 1995 entitled "Mystery at Marlhill".

I intend to visit the site of the murder tomorrow to see what remains of the area and the dwelling of all those involved.

Amtmann

Brian Og wrote: »

I am interested in finding out any information people might have (maybe family stories, rumours, etc.) about the "Murder of Marlhill" in November 1940, which a local woman, Mary "Moll" McCarthy was murdered in a field near Marlhill and her neighbour Harry Gleeson was arrested, charged, convicted of the murder and hanged in Mountjoy Jail in April 1941, in possibly the greatest miscarriage of justice this country has ever saw.

All people directly involved with the murder are now deceased but the name of Harry Gleeson has not yet been cleared despite efforts to secure a posthumous pardon from the State by Noel Davern TD in 1995. The case has fascinated many, including barrister for Harry Gleeson, the late Sean McBride who believed in the innocence of Gleeson until his death.

If you've any info you'd like to share, please post it here or if of a sensitive nature, send it via PM or email.


Anyone interested in finding out about the case should obtain a copy of:

• Murder At Marlhill: Was Harry Gleeson Innocent, Bourke Marcus, Geography Publications, Dublin, 1993. (Available locally at The Bookworm in Thurles)
• An RTE documentary, part of the Thou Shalt not Kill series, made in 1995 entitled "Mystery at Marlhill".

I intend to visit the site of the murder tomorrow to see what remains of the area and the dwelling of all those involved.

Hi, I'm actually from Marlhill. The M8 runs through much of what was Caesar's farm, and of what is left, all the fields have been removed by the current owner of the farm, including the dugout ditch where McCarthy's body was found. The M8 also runs over the spot where the Caesar's farmhouse was. The foundations were barely visible until about 2006.

Moll McArthy's cottage was still standing (roofless, three walls and a gable) until about 2000 when the site was bought and a bungalow dormer was built on the site. You can visit her grave at Garranlea Cemetary (on Garranlea Avenue), but this is overgrown and awkward to access. You'll have to traipse across a muddy field, so bring boots! The headstone is also really hard to read. Bring a wire brush, a few cans of shaving foam, and a window wiper. Spray the foam over the headstones and wipe with the cleaner. Some of the foam should sit into the carvings, enabling you to read the epitaphs.

So, unfortunately, you won't see much at all I'm afraid. I was quite fascinated by the story when I was younger, and used to often walk Caesar's avenue. The M8 has transformed this, and as I said, the old field structure has long since been removed by the new owner (a nice man by the name of Parkinson).

The book you mentioned is the best there is on the topic. As to whether or not Gleeson was guilty, you won't get a satisfactory answer. Most of the old people who knew him are dead. My grandfather (d. 2004) brawled with him once, and was convinced that he killed her. I have heard that the man who wore the riding breeches was in fact one of the local Guards, and - without wishing to cause offence - some people believe he was in fact the killer.

Brian Og

Furet wrote: »

Hi, I'm actually from Marlhill. The M8 runs through much of what was Caesar's farm, and of what is left, all the fields have been removed by the current owner of the farm, including the dugout ditch where McCarthy's body was found. The M8 also runs over the spot where the Caesar's farmhouse was. The foundations were barely visible until about 2006.

Moll McArthy's cottage was still standing (roofless, three walls and a gable) until about 2000 when the site was bought and a bungalow dormer was built on the site. You can visit her grave at Garranlea Cemetary (on Garranlea Avenue), but this is overgrown and awkward to access. You'll have to traipse across a muddy field, so bring boots! The headstone is also really hard to read. Bring a wire brush, a few cans of shaving foam, and a window wiper. Spray the foam over the headstones and wipe with the cleaner. Some of the foam should sit into the carvings, enabling you to read the epitaphs.

So, unfortunately, you won't see much at all I'm afraid. I was quite fascinated by the story when I was younger, and used to often walk Caesar's avenue. The M8 has transformed this, and as I said, the old field structure has long since been removed by the new owner (a nice man by the name of Parkinson).

The book you mentioned is the best there is on the topic. As to whether or not Gleeson was guilty, you won't get a satisfactory answer. Most of the old people who knew him are dead. My grandfather (d. 2004) brawled with him once, and was convinced that he killed her. I have heard that the man who wore the riding breeches was in fact one of the local Guards, and - without wishing to cause offence - some people believe he was in fact the killer.

Sad how it has changed as I was hoping to find the actual spot just to get a feel of what it was like. I will probably take a trip down to visit the grave and lay flowers tomorrow afternoon.

Like Deputy Devern, I was hoping that it would be possible to get a posthumous pardon clearing the name of Harry Gleeson, which he started in 1995 but there is no record if it was ever given. My own mother was related to Moll McCarthy through her aunt but we both believe that Harry Gleeson was framed at the time of the killing and should never have been executed for it while such anomalies existed.

Personally I believe that it was a group of three, with assistance the Gardai especially Sgt. Daly, with the possibility of the "subversive" being one of the group to eliminate the woman who was a threat to all involved. The proximity of the IRA unit in Rosegreen is something which interested me, as from the brutal method of killing, it suggested to me that the person responsible would have had to be experienced with killing, so either a Guard or IRA Volunteer are most likely as opposed to an ordinary farmer.

The case has fascinated me since I learned of it (from the above book which my mother bought to add to her collection on the case) two years ago and it probably had a subconscious influence on my decision to study Law at third level this year.

Do you know if any of the McCarthy's still live in the area?

Amtmann

Brian Og wrote: »

Sad how it has changed as I was hoping to find the actual spot just to get a feel of what it was like. I will probably take a trip down to visit the grave and lay flowers tomorrow afternoon.

Like Deputy Devern, I was hoping that it would be possible to get a posthumous pardon clearing the name of Harry Gleeson, which he started in 1995 but there is no record if it was ever given. My own mother was related to Moll McCarthy through her aunt but we both believe that Harry Gleeson was framed at the time of the killing and should never have been executed for it while such anomalies existed.

Personally I believe that it was a group of three, with assistance the Gardai especially Sgt. Daly, with the possibility of the "subversive" being one of the group to eliminate the woman who was a threat to all involved. The proximity of the IRA unit in Rosegreen is something which interested me, as from the brutal method of killing, it suggested to me that the person responsible would have had to be experienced with killing, so either a Guard or IRA Volunteer are most likely as opposed to an ordinary farmer.

The case has fascinated me since I learned of it (from the above book which my mother bought to add to her collection on the case) two years ago and it probably had a subconscious influence on my decision to study Law at third level this year.

Do you know if any of the McCarthy's still live in the area?

I'm almost certain that they don't. However, Scullys are still present, as are the O'Gormans. Being related to these O'Gormans through my late grandmother I can tell you that a documentary a few years ago named one of her relatives as a probable member of this gang of three. The reaction was one of mild consternation. FitzGerald's farm (from where the gunshots "at the cat" were heard) is still there. The Mass Path is overgrown and quite impenetrable, though the large ditch which housed the path is still there, and passes from Parkinson's/Caesar's boundary along land owned by O'Donnells and Dohertys to New Inn village.

Until the late 90s it was still very possible to get a sense of the place. The well, for instance, was still there, as was the pump, and you could clearly make out the foundations of the Caesar's home. I've often walked the huge modern field where the dugout once lay, all the while absolutely captivated by thoughts of the goings on on that November's night years ago. But sadly there's no trace of any of it today, except for the narrow roads which the protagonists once trod. Steven Barrett's house is still there too by the way (but it's now just a shed). From New Inn take the L3121 for Golden. You will cross the M8 after about 2.5 km. Take the very next left at the big red-bricked house and Barrett's house is in a field just after the fifth house on the right. FitzGerald's old farmhouse is on the left further on close to a minor junction. To get to Caesar's Avenue go straight on past this aforementioned junction and you'll see it (closed with a farm gate) almost directly across from a bungalow. Down this lane you'll come to an M8 underpass. This region is pretty much where the farmhouse was, in a corner that borders O'Donnell land. The pump might still be extant.

Brian Og

Furet wrote: »

I'm almost certain that they don't. However, Scullys are still present, as are the O'Gormans. Being related to these O'Gormans through my late grandmother I can tell you that a documentary a few years ago named one of her relatives as a probable member of this gang of three. The reaction was one of mild consternation. FitzGerald's farm (from where the gunshots "at the cat" were heard) is still there. The Mass Path is overgrown and quite impenetrable, though the large ditch which housed the path is still there, and passes from Parkinson's/Caesar's boundary along land owned by O'Donnells and Dohertys to New Inn village.

Until the late 90s it was still very possible to get a sense of the place. The well, for instance, was still there, as was the pump, and you could clearly make out the foundations of the Caesar's home. I've often walked the huge modern field where the dugout once lay, all the while absolutely captivated by thoughts of the goings on on that November's night years ago. But sadly there's no trace of any of it today, except for the narrow roads which the protagonists once trod. Steven Barrett's house is still there too by the way (but it's now just a shed). From New Inn take the L3121 for Golden. You will cross the M8 after about 2.5 km. Take the very next left at the big red-bricked house and Barrett's house is in a field just after the fifth house on the right. FitzGerald's old farmhouse is on the left further on close to a minor junction. To get to Caesar's Avenue go straight on past this aforementioned junction and you'll see it (closed with a farm gate) almost directly across from a bungalow. Down this lane you'll come to an M8 underpass. This region is pretty much where the farmhouse was, in a corner that borders O'Donnell land. The pump might still be extant.

Although I have suspicions about three of the neighbours who lived in close proximity to the site, the sad truth is we'll probably never know who the members of the group were, let alone who fired the fatal shots, given that almost every man (due to the wide range of Moll's relationships) in the New Inn area would have had a motive for committing the murder, there was also most likely a overlap of motives.

I'll definitely follow the directions you've given and have a look at the area and the now closed Caesar's avenue just to get a feel of the area, and to imagine the passions that flowed through the area on that November night or morning. I believe most (with the author Marcus Bourke) that Moll was detained at the nearby outbuilding on Lynch's farm and killed that morning before being carried to the spot where Harry Gleeson would find her.

Amtmann

If I were at home tomorrow I'd give you a tour, but I think you'll be fine with the directions above. If in doubt call into any of the houses along the road and they'll happily give you guidance.

I have a background in history rather than law. Marcus Burke's book is actually what we call a microhistory - the history of a very specific episode involving the types of people who normally don't make it into the history books. If you're interested in the social dynamics of a rural, rustic setting, you should definitely get yourself a copy of this short book by the Princeton historian Natalie Z. Davis, The Return of Martin Guerre. It's very similar to Burke's book in its aims and structure. It concerns an extraordinary criminal case that almost tore a peasant community apart.

Brian Og

Furet wrote: »

If I were at home tomorrow I'd give you a tour, but I think you'll be fine with the directions above. If in doubt call into any of the houses along the road and they'll happily give you guidance.

I have a background in history rather than law. Marcus Burke's book is actually what we call a microhistory - the history of a very specific episode involving the types of people who normally don't make it into the history books. If you're interested in the social dynamics of a rural, rustic setting, you should definitely get yourself a copy of this short book by the Princeton historian Natalie Z. Davis, The Return of Martin Guerre. It's very similar to Burke's book in its aims and structure. It concerns an extraordinary criminal case that almost tore a peasant community apart.

No bother, I'm sure I'll accomplish the mission. I've the car prepared and all the stuff I might need in it for the hour long drive from Laois (where I currently reside) to New Inn.

I too have had a major interest in history since I was young, and a good understanding of it and the ability to argue it is essential for Law which I chose for the career. I was planning to become a History teacher like my father but I'm not so sure about the "teaching" aspect!

Thanks for the recommendation! I've always been interested in "microhistory", like the small local events such as the first shots of the Easter Rising being fired around 1am on Easter Monday on the rail lines at Tanduff outside Abbeyleix in Laois, but there has always been something about the Marlhill case that has stuck with me and stayed on my mind since I first learned of it.

Amtmann

Safe journey tomorrow and be sure to post how you got on. If you find her grave, you might take a picture and post it here. I've never seen it.

Brian Og

Furet wrote: »

Safe journey tomorrow and be sure to post how you got on. If you find her grave, you might take a picture and post it here. I've never seen it.

Hi Furet,

Didn't get to make it down the other day, got caught for a job to do. But I went down there this evening and using your directions I found the all the sites you mentioned and took a stroll down the Caear's avenue with the book in hand (using the Garda map from 1940).

The boundary with the McCarthy's land is still the same as it was, and I saw what I think was part of the pump near that boundary ditch. As you said, the motorway has changed it all but you can still trace your steps fairly accurately using the map in the book. I didn't venture to the approximate spot in the large field but just had a look from a gate further down the road.

Hadn't a clue as to where the graveyard was, so I asked a local man who was walking his dog, and he directed me to it and I found it up the lane he described. The grave yard is in very bad condition, and only one grave is maintained. Of the 3 remaining stones, 2 weren't hers and the inscription on the last was so badly eroded that it was unreadable. It was dark at that stage, but I took a walk around and reckon there's a few stones under the overgrowth which fell years ago. After that I began the drive home.

It was worth the trip to get the feel of the place. Just walking the lane that used to be Caesar's avenue was a bit haunting, thinking of the history of it.

Amtmann

Brian Og wrote: »

Hi Furet,

Didn't get to make it down the other day, got caught for a job to do. But I went down there this evening and using your directions I found the all the sites you mentioned and took a stroll down the Caear's avenue with the book in hand (using the Garda map from 1940).

The boundary with the McCarthy's land is still the same as it was, and I saw what I think was part of the pump near that boundary ditch. As you said, the motorway has changed it all but you can still trace your steps fairly accurately using the map in the book. I didn't venture to the approximate spot in the large field but just had a look from a gate further down the road.

Hadn't a clue as to where the graveyard was, so I asked a local man who was walking his dog, and he directed me to it and I found it up the lane he described. The grave yard is in very bad condition, and only one grave is maintained. Of the 3 remaining stones, 2 weren't hers and the inscription on the last was so badly eroded that it was unreadable. It was dark at that stage, but I took a walk around and reckon there's a few stones under the overgrowth which fell years ago. After that I began the drive home.

It was worth the trip to get the feel of the place. Just walking the lane that used to be Caesar's avenue was a bit haunting, thinking of the history of it.

That was actually my Dad! I just rang him there to see if anyone asked him for directions and sure enough, it was yourself. Small world.

Brian Og

Furet wrote: »

That was actually my Dad! I just rang him there to see if anyone asked him for directions and sure enough, it was yourself. Small world.

I had actually said to my own father (who was with me in the car) at the time that I'd bet any money it was yourself walking the dog! But I know now that it was your Dad!

Another theory about Moll's grave is that it may have been unmarked, due to the fact that her children were taken into the care of the State after her death, so there was no immediate relatives to purchase a stone for her. I imagine that would have suited the locals as well, who would probably like to have forgotten all about her.

Amtmann

Brian Og wrote: »

Another theory about Moll's grave is that it may have been unmarked, due to the fact that her children were taken into the care of the State after her death, so there was no immediate relatives to purchase a stone for her. I imagine that would have suited the locals as well, who would probably like to have forgotten all about her.

I heard that one of the Cooneys (who owned Garranlea House, which you probably saw) had her buried there and erected a stone. I had always presumed that it was engraved, but perhaps not.

HelenV

Hi Brian Og,
Harry Gleeson was my Grandmother's brother. My Dad is supposed to be the young lad in the book standing beside Harry. It is lovely for me to see you taking an interest in the case as Harry Gleeson's last wish was that one day his name would be cleared. Keep up the good work.
HelenV.

Fragles

Hi HelenV
I have been looking at my family tree and have both Ceasar and Gleeson relatives and am interested in this case. Do you know where Harry was from originally and what brothers or sisters he had.

Amtmann

I think he was from the Holycross area, though I could be wrong on that. The truth will never be discovered at this stage.

HelenV

Hi Furet,
Yes the family was from the Holycross area - there are still members of both the Caesar and Gleeson families there.
How are you connected?
HelenV

HelenV

Hi Fragles,
My apologies. I'm new to this 'boards' crack and mistakenly replied to Furet.
Is there a possibility that we're related? Harry Gleeson had two sisters (one my grandmother) and as far as I know three brothers. I'd be interested to know a little more from your side but this is rather a public forum.
I don't live in Tipperary and am therefore not privy to a lot of personal information etc. but I'm really interested in gleaning any info you might have. Can you give me an idea as to your relationship to the Caesars / Gleesons.
The Caesars are from the Holycross area and a brother and sister of his lived there also but I'm not too sure where his actual parents came from. It would be interesting to find out.
I'd love to hear more from you.
HelenV

ivanbrow10

Hi all,

I've been following this story for quite some time and have always enjoyed researching it.

One thing I've yet to really discover is what motivation did people really believe Harry Gleeson would have had and if he was innocent - what motivations would other people have actually had??

Hope someone can shed some light on this...

sumup

hi Brian

I like you have a great interest in Harry Gleeson been cleared of the murder of moll my father grew up down the road from where Moll was found and according to him The gaurds had a hand in her murder. ive been trying to get a copy of one of the books that was wrote about the murder there was two published marlhill murder and murder at marlhill im not sure who wrote them. My dad also has a book that was wrote but never published by a local man its very interesting. both of the books seem to be out of print does that shop in Thurles have either one of them?? we did have them but they were given to a lady who has died and we cant get them back!

regards

sumup

Harry Gleeson did not do it. they say that one of the local guards was the father of one of her children and she was about to make it public knowlage. they knew harry would be out in the fields with the dogs and framed him. why would a man that had killed this woman go to the guards to tell them there was a body in a field. He was framed without a doubt. this is a topic my dad and i have had many conversations about and the stories he has told me have convinced me Harry Gleesons was framed

kfagan99

HelenV wrote: »

Hi Brian Og,
Harry Gleeson was my Grandmother's brother. My Dad is supposed to be the young lad in the book standing beside Harry. It is lovely for me to see you taking an interest in the case as Harry Gleeson's last wish was that one day his name would be cleared. Keep up the good work.
HelenV.

Dear Helen, I'm interested in seeing if I can prove that Harry Gleeson is innocent. That would mean finding out who really did it. There's an interesting new novel The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler just published this week by New Island press which is a fictionalised account of what happened at Marlhill in 1940. You will probably find it is worth reading, as I did. My guess is that we should now try very hard to find out who really murdered Moll Carthy, before all those who were alive then die. Marcus Bourke's book Murder at Marlhill showed that Gleeson did not get a fair trial. It would be good to take that further and prove his innocence. Please, if you or anyone else has any information, contact me at kfagan99@yahoo.com. Kieran Fagan, journalist.

Resend

kfagan99 wrote: »

Dear Helen, I'm interested in seeing if I can prove that Harry Gleeson is innocent. That would mean finding out who really did it. There's an interesting new novel The Dead Eight by Carlo Gebler just published this week by New Island press which is a fictionalised account of what happened at Marlhill in 1940. You will probably find it is worth reading, as I did. My guess is that we should now try very hard to find out who really murdered Moll Carthy, before all those who were alive then die. Marcus Bourke's book Murder at Marlhill showed that Gleeson did not get a fair trial. It would be good to take that further and prove his innocence. Please, if you or anyone else has any information, contact me at kfagan99@yahoo.com. Kieran Fagan, journalist.

@Kieran Fagan, journalist. Interesting story keep us updated

Resend

sumup wrote: »

hi Brian

I like you have a great interest in Harry Gleeson been cleared of the murder of moll my father grew up down the road from where Moll was found and according to him The gaurds had a hand in her murder. ive been trying to get a copy of one of the books that was wrote about the murder there was two published marlhill murder and murder at marlhill im not sure who wrote them. My dad also has a book that was wrote but never published by a local man its very interesting. both of the books seem to be out of print does that shop in Thurles have either one of them?? we did have them but they were given to a lady who has died and we cant get them back!

regards

murder at marlhill

search here

Does not show but am told copy of murder at marlhill at Clonmel Library . Never heard of the other one. Tell us about the unpublished one

Amtmann

That book by Marcus Bourke is excellent. The story is interesting to me as the murder happened about 500m from where I am right now.

Resend

Tremelo wrote: »

That book by Marcus Bourke is excellent. The story is interesting to me as the murder happened about 500m from where I am right now.

do you know about the unpublished book?

Amtmann

Resend wrote: »

do you know about the unpublished book?

The only book I know of is the one by Burke and the recent one that is part-fiction. Burke's one is as comprehensive as could be though. I think it would be extremely hard to surpass it.

Resend

Tremelo wrote: »

The only book I know of is the one by Burke and the recent one that is part-fiction. Burke's one is as comprehensive as could be though. I think it would be extremely hard to surpass it.

yes i have it.
sumup wrote

there was two published marlhill murder and murder at marlhill im not sure who wrote them. My dad also has a book that was wrote but never published by a local man its very interesting

I think sumup may be confusing marlhill murder with Bourkes as i get the latter by googling the former. As you are in the area you are ideally located to do some groundwork.... what attitude is there to it by the older folk? Do they talk about it easily?

Amtmann

Resend wrote: »

yes i have it.
sumup wrote

I think sumup may be confusing marlhill murder with Bourkes as i get the latter by googling the former. As you are in the area you are ideally located to do some groundwork.... what attitude is there to it by the older folk? Do they talk about it easily?

Well I only ever really spoke about it in detail with my grandfather when he was alive. He would speak at length about how he interacted with Gleeson on a few occasions, but I often wondered if he embellished the stories. One other elderly person I know would also speak about Gleeson. Rightly or wrongly, neither this person or my grandfather had particularly good things to say about his personality.

I don't know any other elderly people well enough to ask them, and it's not a topic that is brought up regularly, presumably because it's so long in the past. The main time you hear about it is when it's in the media for whatever reason - usually because someone has written a book or is doing research. Up until ten years ago Moll's cottage was still visible. But as I said further up the thread, the M8 now runs through what was once Caesar's farm, the ruin of her cottage is gone, and all is changed.

Resend

Tremelo wrote: »

Well I only ever really spoke about it in detail with my grandfather when he was alive. He would speak at length about how he interacted with Gleeson on a few occasions, but I often wondered if he embellished the stories. One other elderly person I know would also speak about Gleeson. Rightly or wrongly, neither this person or my grandfather had particularly good things to say about his personality.

I don't know any other elderly people well enough to ask them, and it's not a topic that is brought up regularly, presumably because it's so long in the past. The main time you hear about it is when it's in the media for whatever reason - usually because someone has written a book or is doing research. Up until ten years ago Moll's cottage was still visible. But as I said further up the thread, the M8 now runs through what was once Caesar's farm, the ruin of her cottage is gone, and all is changed.

Cannot put my hand on the book now but as far as I recall many people spoke well of him

Amtmann

Resend wrote: »

Cannot put my hand on the book now but as far as I recall many people spoke well of him

I read that in the book too. Two stories I have relate to him pointing his shotgun at kids who were stealing apples from an orchard, and to him getting into a fight with someone at a dance. I don't know how to rate the truth value of these stories.

HelenV

Resend,
I heard there was another book written by a local man but an injunction was taken out to prevent its sale. I think it was titled The Farsical Hanging of Harry Gleeson but I could be way off the mark with the title. I heard the book named names etc. and the injunction may have been taken out around the time of Marcus Bourke's book.
Do you know anything about this?

Resend

HelenV wrote: »

Resend,
I heard there was another book written by a local man but an injunction was taken out to prevent its sale. I think it was titled The Farsical Hanging of Harry Gleeson but I could be way off the mark with the title. I heard the book named names etc. and the injunction may have been taken out around the time of Marcus Bourke's book.
Do you know anything about this?

no never heard of it. i googled it and found this which has been referred to above. if it named names could well have ben an injunction

Resend

sumup wrote: »

hi Brian

I like you have a great interest in Harry Gleeson been cleared of the murder of moll my father grew up down the road from where Moll was found and according to him The gaurds had a hand in her murder. ive been trying to get a copy of one of the books that was wrote about the murder there was two published marlhill murder and murder at marlhill im not sure who wrote them. My dad also has a book that was wrote but never published by a local man its very interesting. both of the books seem to be out of print does that shop in Thurles have either one of them?? we did have them but they were given to a lady who has died and we cant get them back!

regards

who wrote it

morgan3

I have followed these posts with interest. I am glad to see you amended your post on the 30th May 2011. Please note number 4 in terms and conditions of using boards.ie.

Amtmann

morgan3 wrote: »

I have followed these posts with interest. I am glad to see you amended your post on the 30th May 2011. Please note number 4 in terms and conditions of using boards.ie.

Firstly, as the moderator, I am well aware of the terms of use and did not breach them. What is not allowed around here, however, is back-seat moderation, or making veiled threats hinting at legal action. That's a fast-track to a ban. As you are new here, I won't infract you, but consider yourself informed.

I amended my post for personal reasons, but there was absolutely no onus on me to do so. In any case, no one was accused of anything. Speculation from the 1940s as to the possible identity of the killer was commented on, however. This is a topic of historical interest dealing with individuals who had names, all of whom are now dead. I can either allow the topic to be freely discussed, or I can close the thread. I have decided to allow free discussion. If anyone feels they might be offended by what they read, then they can discontinue reading it.

Please note also that discussion of moderation is prohibited in-thread, so resort to PM if you have any further queries.

Resend

Tremelo wrote: »

Firstly, as the moderator, I am well aware of the terms of use and did not breach them. What is not allowed around here, however, is back-seat moderation, or making veiled threats hinting at legal action. That's a fast-track to a ban. As you are new here, I won't infract you, but consider yourself informed.

I amended my post for personal reasons, but there was absolutely no onus on me to do so. In any case, no one was accused of anything. Speculation from the 1940s as to the possible identity of the killer was commented on, however. This is a topic of historical interest dealing with individuals who had names, all of whom are now dead. I can either allow the topic to be freely discussed, or I can close the thread. I have decided to allow free discussion. If anyone feels they might be offended by what they read, then they can discontinue reading it.

Please note also that discussion of moderation is prohibited in-thread, so resort to PM if you have any further queries.

where is the post of 30 may? i am interested in the discussion of it. did you amend or delete? thanks

Amtmann

Resend wrote: »

where is the post of 30 may? i am interested in the discussion of it. did you amend or delete? thanks

He is referring to post #2, which I amended on 30 May after the thread had been recently bumped. Any user can contact a moderator at any time to request that a post be amended or deleted.

Resend

Tremelo wrote: »

He is referring to post #2, which I amended on 30 May after the thread had been recently bumped. Any user can contact a moderator at any time to request that a post be amended or deleted.

seems to have dried up pity, fascinating story

gossipgal08

Carlo Gebler was just on Pat Kenny talking about his book

mikemac

Under the Dead Eight, go to programme podcast on the right side of the page


Pat Kenny show yesterday
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/todaywithpatkenny/

paulronayne

Henry "Harry" Gleeson was born Jan-Mar 1897 at the family homestead at Galbertstown Lower, Holycross, Co. Tipperary. He was the ninth child of farmer Thomas Gleeson and Catherine Caesar. They were married Jan-Mar 1883 and had 12 children, all surviving infancy. Harry went to work for his mother's brother John, at Marlhill Farm. Harry's younger brother Patrick (b. Mar 1901) would ultimately inherit Marlhill after John Caeser's death (Jan-Mar 1951), aged 83.

The Gleeson family are recorded on both the 1901 & 1911 censuses at Galbertstown Lower.

HelenV

Nice bit of research

honeyvale

sumup wrote: »

hi Brian

I like you have a great interest in Harry Gleeson been cleared of the murder of moll my father grew up down the road from where Moll was found and according to him The gaurds had a hand in her murder. ive been trying to get a copy of one of the books that was wrote about the murder there was two published marlhill murder and murder at marlhill im not sure who wrote them. My dad also has a book that was wrote but never published by a local man its very interesting. both of the books seem to be out of print does that shop in Thurles have either one of them?? we did have them but they were given to a lady who has died and we cant get them back!

regards

A friend in Clonmel bought Murder at Marlhill at the bookshop in Showgrounds. New book section inside door beside the fiction story based on it

johnconnors

My uncle has had a lifelong fascination with this case. He worked for an agricultural contractor all his life and he was on very friendly terms with the Gleeson family. He often told me about long conversations that he had with Harry's brothers, Paddy and Thady about those events and he was also very friendly with Harry's sister [a Mrs McCarthy, who lived in Castle avenue, Thurles]/, Long before it became popular to do so, my uncle believed in Gleesons innocence.
The Gleesons and Caesers suffered greatly in the years following the murder. Back in those days, it was unthinkable that a guard, teacher, priest, judge would be even remotely capable of telling a lie. So the verdict as handed down would have been accepted without question.
In the docuementary ,''Mystery at Marlhill'', a nurse [or care attendant] told how she went to the bedside of a dying patient, in the nurseing home where she worked. The dying patient was a daughter of Moll Carthy and she told this nurse that she saw her mother kill on their kitchen floor -and that a man who was entirely innocent was hanged for it.

Amtmann

johnconnors wrote: »

In the docuementary ,''Mystery at Marlhill'', a nurse [or care attendant] told how she went to the bedside of a dying patient, in the nurseing home where she worked. The dying patient was a daughter of Moll Carthy and she told this nurse that she saw her mother kill on their kitchen floor -and that a man who was entirely innocent was hanged for it.

Why did she wait until she was old and dying before saying this?

HelenV

In all fairness - she was taken into care after her mother's death. Maybe she didn't wait 'till she was old and dying beore speaking out - maybe she was old and dying before anyone simply listened to her.

Amtmann

That is of course a possibility. It's also very possible that it's a myth. I find it hard to accept that a woman would have been claiming this throughout her life, only to be ignored until she was finally on her deathbed. I have no vested interest in proving or disproving Gleeson's innocence, but I have to say that such alleged testimony should be considered far too weak to have an impact on any serious analysis of the case.

johnconnors

I agree that in legal terms such a disclosure would be of little value. All I know is that it was on the tv documentary by Cathal O Shannon some years ago. He also spoke with a son of Moll Carthys who was adamant that the evidence he gave at the trial was ndeed the truth. By today's standard, it would be unthinkable that anyone would keep something like that to themselves, but back in the 40's people looked at things differently. Just as an example-- Moll never divulged the fathers of any of her children. In today's world, there would be court proceedings around access and maintainance, Moll would publish the names on facebook, and the Sunday World would surely produce a headline that would strongly feature the words, ''Love Rat''.
Irish families up to lately were plauged with secrets. My mother had an aunt, who one day left the farm where she worked to go to Thurles races. When she did not return that evening it was just presumed that she had went to England. I never heard my mother , aunts or uncles talk about her, or my grandfather [her brother]. I only discovered of her existance with the 1911 cencus comming online. When I said it to my mother, she just dismissed it out of hand with something like, ''we wouldn't be bothered about things like that.
So , as to that nurses testomy in the tv documentry-- all I can say is that I saw it, I was impressed with it-- but as to it's worth or indeed validity, I can't say

kfagan99

Fair question, but as children I think they were very isolated. Their mother had been murdered and many in the local community were hostile to them. They may well have decided among themselves not to discuss it any further once Harry Gleeson had been hanged. That is supposition of course.

vampirevixens

i do hope they make movie out of it ...as its story i feel that needs to be showing to world ...told what happened to harry and molly ...

solerina

johnconnors wrote: »

I agree that in legal terms such a disclosure would be of little value. All I know is that it was on the tv documentary by Cathal O Shannon some years ago. He also spoke with a son of Moll Carthys who was adamant that the evidence he gave at the trial was ndeed the truth. By today's standard, it would be unthinkable that anyone would keep something like that to themselves, but back in the 40's people looked at things differently. Just as an example-- Moll never divulged the fathers of any of her children. In today's world, there would be court proceedings around access and maintainance, Moll would publish the names on facebook, and the Sunday World would surely produce a headline that would strongly feature the words, ''Love Rat''.
Irish families up to lately were plauged with secrets. My mother had an aunt, who one day left the farm where she worked to go to Thurles races. When she did not return that evening it was just presumed that she had went to England. I never heard my mother , aunts or uncles talk about her, or my grandfather [her brother]. I only discovered of her existance with the 1911 cencus comming online. When I said it to my mother, she just dismissed it out of hand with something like, ''we wouldn't be bothered about things like that.
So , as to that nurses testomy in the tv documentry-- all I can say is that I saw it, I was impressed with it-- but as to it's worth or indeed validity, I can't say

Wow, sorry if this is off the point but did she go to England ?? Or did anyone every find out where she went ? Sounds a bit Annie McCarrick like to me.