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It's great to be unemployed...

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    #122
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Here's my estimate of a fair weekly budget of someone under 25.
    • Transport 25eur (Thats what I spend on the odd bit of driving, occasional bus, mostly I cycle -alternatively for Dubs, a Rambler 5 Day Adult is €23.00).
    • Mobile phone 5eur (20eur monthly deal)
    • Food 50eur (to stock my fridge with healthy food for 3 meals a day)
    • Personal 40eur (The dole isnt a prison sentence. 40eur would cover the occasion clothes purchase, xbox game, cinema, a nice meal, someone's birthday, a few pints)

    SO thats 120eur before you factor in rent and bills.

    so your saying that booze, trips to the cinema, mobile phone and xbox games all come before rent & bills?
    no wonder the country is so effed up, if people priotise like that.

    it's food > rent > bills, then clothing & transport, THEN the luxuries.


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    #123
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,440 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    monkeypants wrote: »
    Rasheed wrote: »
    I'm not saying take jobs off painters, that's ridiculous. I'm saying to improve your local community by doing jobs that community groups can't sfford to pay someone to do eg. Painting a community centre, planting flowers outside a church that kind of thing. Making your locality look inviting to outsiders, developing a sense of community and people working together for a common goal. There is also evidence that people can become withdrawn and depressed when out of work, makes sense, I'd be the same myself. So getting out, especially in the summer would give people a sense of usefulness and pride at helping themselves and others. I think it's win win, maybe I'm wrong.
    It sounds like a good idea, but you need to be careful with the people who are to be involved. First, if you're making this work a condition of receiving the dole, then the work needs to be supervised and that costs money.

    Second, if it is mandatory and all are included, then I wouldn't want to be around someone who has just been given a tool of some description and is looking for an excuse to get out of this scheme. He/she is going to either twat himself or someone else over the head with it or accidentally hit a passing car...more expense. If I was on a scheme with someone like that, I would be looking out of it for my safety.

    Third, I'm assuming that there'll be some form of insurance provided for this work, which will cost.

    Fourth, are you going to allow the womenfolk to plead the belly? It's rare to see a woman doing time for a crime, so I can't see this happening, there'll always be kids to look after or on the way. So it'll just be the menfolk out working.

    All valid points ,
    Last one first... Single parents aren't on job seekers rule them out ( I think single parents allowance should finish when kids are in school but then I am a right wing facist b..t..rd )
    Secondly it wouldn't be mandatory it'd be voluntary ( just expensive to opt out of )

    As education would be a big part of the scheme if you weren't trained in doing something , a short training course would be available or mandatory ...
    I don't know who'd keep score of people turning up or not , I suppose each voluntary group would need some kind of co-ordinator , hopefully because it'd be voluntary groups people would head into things they have an interest in, or work with friends/ neighbours they get on with,there wouldn't have to be much score keeping .....
    I suppose government / county council staff would be there more as facilitators, providers of basic equipment like they are with tidy towns groups ...

    Haven't a clue about insurance, but would hope that as everybody is responsible for them selves and it's all done voluntarily it wouldn't be necessary .... But I'm probably wrong ....

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #124
    jiggawigga
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭jiggawigga


    A friend of my sister recently got nabbed for social welfare fraud. She's a prime example of a lazy **** milking the system as much as possible - she also happens to be on holidays in France at the minute. The penalty was zip. She was told to stop basically and she lost a few entitlements. Nothing said about the vast amounts of fraud she had carried out until that date.

    She should be put on a sliding scale of welfare until it reaches barely enough to pay for rice and water if you ask me.

    Again it's down to the idiots we have in government.


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    #125
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Markcheese wrote: »
    "Ps I'm guessing from yr last paragraph that you ain't no mathematician ...."

    Firstly, when making ad hominem attacks be sure to be flawless yourself.


    Personally I do one of those "menial" jobs that you seem to despise ... I don't see what's wrong with giving back to your community if you're being helped by your community /society_.
    In terms of those with skills , find a way use them , architect , engineer , chef or soccer coach. If you need a skill or training then the course should be available and that's your 25 hours ... if you can't be arsed or are too busy to turn up , drop the dole.

    Secondly, shouting "WRONG" is not a very effective way at correcting a mistake.

    Do please point me in the correct direction.


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    #126
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    jiggawigga wrote: »
    A friend of my sister recently got nabbed for social welfare fraud. She's a prime example of a lazy **** milking the system as much as possible - she also happens to be on holidays in France at the minute. The penalty was zip. She was told to stop basically and she lost a few entitlements. Nothing said about the vast amounts of fraud she had carried out until that date.

    She should be put on a sliding scale of welfare until it reaches barely enough to pay for rice and water if you ask me.

    Again it's down to the idiots we have in government.
    Shocking, there needs to be real reform. Working and claiming, and claiming while abroad (I assume someone else signed on for her) should be easier to catch and carry stronger punishments.


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    #127
    christmas2012
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭christmas2012


    free labour sounds great in theory but the reality is it occupies hogs up,what could be a paid job advertised,so before you sign up think about that...the more popular you make these schemes the more unemployment they create,they suck what could be a paid job advertised right out of the community..


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    #128
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    the groutch wrote: »
    so your saying that booze, trips to the cinema, mobile phone and xbox games all come before rent & bills?
    no wonder the country is so effed up, if people priotise like that.

    it's food > rent > bills, then clothing & transport, THEN the luxuries.

    Nope, not what I said. Do try and read a post fully. If you need to, take the time to read it again.

    The post was an argument for deducting the money one would need for rent and bills from people who are or IMO should be living at home, while still allowing them to maintain a comfortable life (if you want to argue whether or not they should be able to have creature comforts thats another question).

    But please, don't let what I actually wrote distract you from pontificating.


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    #129
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Anna Nicole wrote: »
    You are not looking for work, so I'm assuming you don't need to work or don't want to work? Can I ask why?

    You are confused because you think only someone on SW would be voicing a contrary opinion to yours.

    I said I am not looking for work. What else might that imply...

    Without re reading all my posts, it's possible I have written too often using first and second person pronouns, when I should have said "one". It irks me to be honest when one writes like that, so I refrain from it. For my part in the confusion, I apologise.


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    #130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

    Anyway.

    Here's the thing.

    The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

    This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock. We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc. And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

    I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.


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    #131
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    murphaph wrote: »
    I don't look down on the people here in Germany working for their (much more meagre) benefits. You see them assisting the local council with keeping the parks in order, hedges trimmed etc.

    They do it to make sure nobody gets too comfortable on welfare. I respect the people who do it a lot more than the folks who opt-out and are cut off completely and who then proceed to beg for money.
    I am not familiar on any level with the German SW system, I cannot comment on it.
    I have made my suggestions for how to improve Ireland's flawed system, and countered other people's suggestions.

    If you were to make some suggestions based on the German system, I would be eager to digest and discuss them.


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    #132
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    free labour sounds great in theory but the reality is it occupies hogs up,what could be a paid job advertised,so before you sign up think about that...the more popular you make these schemes the more unemployment they create,they suck what could be a paid job advertised right out of the community..

    If your mother asked you to re-wire a plug would you reply 'oh mam that'd put electricians out of business, ring one of them'. Or if she asked you to paint the shed 'oh mam, that'd put painters out of work, ring one of them'. Or mow the lawn 'oh mam, that'd put those kids who go door to door with a mower out of work, ring one of them'. Why not?

    Because its your mother? Well this is your country asking. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. After 2 years of the state supports giving one day a week isn't slave labour. And when was the last time you saw a job advertised like 'hedge trimmer wanted for public spaces. One day a week'. Or 'shop assistant wanted for Oxfam. One day a week, voluntary basis'. Maybe under the 'volunteer' section.

    It'd kill off real jobs as much as the tidy towns project does.


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    #133
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

    Anyway.

    Here's the thing.

    The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

    This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock. We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc. And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

    I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.

    Not sure if I agree with that. If a stay at home mum is abandoned by her husband its unfair that she should have to leave he kids with a stranger when previously she made sacrifices to be with her kids 24/7.


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    #134
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

    Anyway.

    Here's the thing.

    The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

    Agreed!
    This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock.
    Your opinion is contrary to economists, who base their arguments off both theory and historic precedence.

    There is an argument for donating time to the type of charitable work that would otherwise go undone, but street cleaning is not one such job.
    We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc....

    I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.

    And here it is, its not because the work needs to be done. No, the part you shouted was that that there are people out there with free money. Spongers. "bleeding off the state".
    And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

    Oh my. What a terrible idea. Expensive, dangerous, and shows such a low regard for the skills needed for child care.


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    #135
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    Laminations wrote: »
    It'd kill off real jobs as much as the tidy towns project does.

    That depends on the scale, and the types of jobs.
    What has been suggested in this thread by many is real work.


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    #136
    FloatingVoter
    Registered Users Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭FloatingVoter


    Perhaps if we let the slavs / jews / blacks / homosexuals / gypsies do all the dirty work, the employed people would feel better. Distant echoes there.
    Or reverse course, how many of you are actually qualified or more importantly capable of doing the jobs you are in ?
    Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
    Never confuse employment with work.
    Wanting to be considered superior to others is usually the first sign of the inept.

    I'll take the ban now.


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    #137
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Nope. 25eur in petrol would get me 100km+ outside dublin.



    Why would it need to?
    I'm not encouraging you to go out and buy a car. If you didnt need one before becoming unemployed, you dont need one now!


    What? 25eur will get you a rambler in dublin, or a lot of petrol if from a more rural area.

    But dont just nit pick - elaborate with figures how much dole you think a single, under 25 needs

    I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
    You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..

    €25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...

    Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them.. I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...


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    #138
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    FloatingVoter wrote: »
    Perhaps if we let the slavs / jews / blacks / homosexuals / gypsies do all the dirty work, the employed people would feel better. Distant echoes there.
    Or reverse course, how many of you are actually qualified or more importantly capable of doing the jobs you are in ?
    Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
    Never confuse employment with work.
    Wanting to be considered superior to others is usually the first sign of the inept.

    I'll take the ban now.

    Knuckle draggers providing careers advice? That's one way to solve unemployment I suppose...


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    #139
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Sin City wrote: »
    garda vetting was for working with the.vulnerable which you.mentioned.in your.previous.post .

    paint av wall ?

    take.jobs off painters ?

    Can you imagine the noise from the SIPTU beards if the local council started getting people on the dole to paint walls/clean the streets etc etc?


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    #140
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    bbam wrote: »
    I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
    You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..

    €25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...

    Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them.. I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...

    I think I mentioned this on boards before:
    In my opinion benefits should be an absolute minimum needed to live. It is for people unwilling to work or who have refused to turn up for 5 interviews. Job seekers allowance should be expenses based i.e. you have a bus card to get to interviews, you can claim back fuel used to drive to businesses to hand out CV's. Anything else that helps you get a job, even a car loan if you need your own vehicle for a job.


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    #141
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    FloatingVoter wrote: »
    Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
    Never confuse employment with work.

    You've just described the average PS worker.;)


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    #142
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    That depends on the scale, and the types of jobs.
    What has been suggested in this thread by many is real work.

    Real work that isn't getting done because the state has no money so jobs would never materialise. Such a plan during affluent times could be criticised but even then if it is community based charity style tidy towns stuff I don't think people should be paid for much of that. Maintenance, upkeep, cleanliness, sports program's, helping the elderly, providing assistance at events. And 20 weeks for Garda clearance which would rule people out of certain projects ain't much considering the wait time for the dole - and the state would have 2 years to get the vetting done as there'd be a grace period of support sans conditions


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    #143
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    While I agree with most of what is said in the OP, I think when making the "why am I bothering to go to work when I would be better off on the dole?" argument, it is only fair to admit that you care about what your CV looks like because you see yourself as someone with prospects in the future when things pick up. Working a low-paid job that you're overqualified for which is not immediately financially rewarding relative to social welfare, is not done purely because of work ethic or wanting to contribute to society although these things might be part of the reason. There is also the self-interest of not wanting a gap on your CV that is dangerously difficult to explain.

    This brings me onto my second point. Some people have resigned themselves to the fact that they will never have prospects due to lack of qualfiications or other personal circumstances. For them, benefits seem like the best option because they think they will never earn much in excess of this for their 35 hour week. If these people were forced to work for social welfare, yes that would take some jobs out of the private sector, but I do not believe that they would all become permanent employees whose wages would be paid by the state forever. If a person has to work 35 hours a week whether they like it or not, be it for a private employer or the state, there is an incentive to better themselves so that they can earn as much as possible for that 35 hours. I think many would upskill and move out of the system quickly.


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    #144
    FloatingVoter
    Registered Users Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭FloatingVoter


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Knuckle draggers providing careers advice? That's one way to solve unemployment I suppose...

    Its a pity we don't have sarcasm tags for the slow of brain who can't read a full post.


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    #145
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    woodoo wrote: »
    Welfare bill is €20 billion per year at present. It needs to be cut drastically. Welfare cheats need to be jailed too.

    Exactly. Jail them all. Great idea. Just as we did with the bankers,speculators,corrupt politicans and regulator that brought the country to its knees. :mad:


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    #146
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    bbam wrote: »
    I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
    I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...

    Wait sorry, wheres your suggested budget?
    You are just nit picking, because you haven't offered your own alternative.
    You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..
    Nope, I am sticking with what I said. €25, either get a bus ticket if in dublin or petrol if you are from an area with no public transport. That was quite clear.
    €25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...
    What were you driving before being unemployed? Why do you need a car now, if you didn't when working?
    Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them..

    Do they need their own car to find a job?
    I would say no.

    Theres the internet, phone, post. Theres getting lifts when needed off friends, family, neighbours.
    Theres also walking and cycling. I would consider 20km a day to be a normal cycle.


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    #147
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    I don't think there should be dole at all, the government should provide minimum wage jobs for every person that wants one, you could cap it at €200 per week and it could actually save money. There's plenty of litter that could be picked up, parks cleaned, things repaired.

    I also think state pensions should be done away with. You save for retirement when you are young and if you didn't save you shouldn't be allowed retire.


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    #148
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    secretambition wrote: »
    While I agree with most of what is said in the OP, I think when making the "why am I bothering to go to work when I would be better off on the dole?" argument, it is only fair to admit that you care about what your CV looks like because you see yourself as someone with prospects in the future when things pick up. Working a low-paid job that you're overqualified for which is not immediately financially rewarding relative to social welfare, is not done purely because of work ethic or wanting to contribute to society although these things might be part of the reason. There is also the self-interest of not wanting a gap on your CV that is dangerously difficult to explain.

    This brings me onto my second point. Some people have resigned themselves to the fact that they will never have prospects due to lack of qualfiications or other personal circumstances. For them, benefits seem like the best option because they think they will never earn much in excess of this for their 35 hour week. If these people were forced to work for social welfare, yes that would take some jobs out of the private sector, but I do not believe that they would all become permanent employees whose wages would be paid by the state forever. If a person has to work 35 hours a week whether they like it or not, be it for a private employer or the state, there is an incentive to better themselves so that they can earn as much as possible for that 35 hours. I think many would upskill and move out of the system quickly.
    Thats a very nice argument. But it still based on the too-oft espoused view on this thread that people are only on SW because they are lazy.


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    #149
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    GarIT wrote: »
    ... builders that could be helped, there would be plenty of companies that would go halves with the government on a part time employee.

    Real jobs, taken away from qualified people


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    #150
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    I think that there sould be 35 hours work a week in order to get 200 euro benefits. A person who has to either do that or go out and find their own minimum wage job for 8.65 X 35 = 302.75, but is working 35 hours regardless, is quickly going to make every effort to get themselves out of the system.

    Incidentally, I would retain a lot of the benefits in kind that people on social welfare get in relation to health, education etc. I wouldn't have anyone on welfare struggling to survive, but I would definitely make sure it isn't fun.


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    #151
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Stabshauptmann wrote: »
    Real jobs, taken away from qualified people

    I suppose there is that but you could still do the rest, there are plenty of places in ireland that are never looked after.


This discussion has been closed.
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