It's great to be unemployed...

thoker

stop bitchin and live on 188 a week and 200 rent allowance per month and call me in a month after sitting around watching countdown, no xbox360, no dosh. You'll run back to your job but too late a young east european is working and he ain't whinging like the self entitled celtic tiger pups who expect it to land in their lap

Icepick

Whoever came up with the idea that everybody gets the same payment regardless of how much you paid into the system and how long you are on it was a moron.
The whole system needs to be rebuilt.

Stabshauptmann

Icepick wrote: »

Whoever came up with the idea that everybody gets the same payment regardless of how much you paid into the system and how long you are on it was a moron.
The whole system needs to be rebuilt.

Rather than have a high standard payment, and a deduction for means testing I would propose a low standard payment and an increase for tax paid & no. of children.

K-9

Just a reminder that this isn't the Ranting & Raving forum.

The OP makes a valid point about lack of financial support for employees to get extra education, while there are some people on welfare who wouldn't even avail of the incentives that are freely available to them. It should be needless to say that throwing around terms like lazy, piss-taking louts, doesn't help the quality of the discussion.

leincar

jungleman wrote: »

I had to drop out of college due to financial constraints three years ago. I'm now working in a minimum wage retail job to try and save up to go back and complete my studies.

I ventured down to Citizens Information this morning to find out if I was eligible for any kind of assistance whatsoever, even just rent relief. I was swiftly informed that no, I would not be eligible for rent relief nor for the Back to Education allowance. Why? Because I'm currently employed.

This time last year I sent out over 200 CV's and got two job interviews. Thankfully, one of the interviews went really well and I got a full-time job on part time hours, minimum wage. I never intended to go on the dole. The way I see it, I'm fit and able to work, and I'd rather mow people's lawns for a tenner here or there than get any unemployment money from the government.

So by doing this, and not taking the lead of every other person my age who takes the dole instead of looking really hard for a job, I have ruled myself out for any kind of assistance during college. I was basically told that if I have been unemployed for the last nine months I would be better off than working hard like I have been doing.

I think it's an absolute disgrace. In my job I regularly serve customers who boast about how they screw the system; how they get rent relief but have a partner living with them on the sly who covers the other half; how they fund nights out with children's allowance; how they have no desire to work because they have more benefits and reliefs than they know what to do with; how great it is living in a council house while hard working losers are straddled with mortgages.

It makes me sick to my stomach. Not only are they taking the piss out of people who have worked hard for years, only to find themselves laid off and out of a job, but they always seem to have so much cash to spend that it's burning a hole in their wallet. And don't get me wrong, I fully understand that people who thought they'd have a job for life have suddenly found themselves unemployed, many of whom have families to support. I am not lumping them into the same category as these idiots who have never worked a day in their lives and exist to claim any benefit they can.

Really, all I would like would be for people who work hard to be treated on an even keel. After I pay rent, bills, bus tickets and food, I don't have a lot left to spend on myself let alone save. The Irish government make me sick to my stomach that sometimes I am envious of lazy, piss-taking louts.

You will probably find that the people crowing about their welfare lifestyle(Hereafter known as the shameless class) are the same people who were moaning about having nothing during the so called tiger days. Thats 150,000 people who will always have that attitude. The other 300,000 on welfare payments I would wager would be only too happy to be off welfare and have a daily working function and their self respect back.

Lazy, piss, taking louts were around before, at present, and will be in the future. Give them their welfare and have done with them or eventually the same bastards will come after what you have. At the end of the day it is a small price and a price worth paying.

Dannyboy83

bobmalooka wrote: »

Having worked the last 7 years with daily contact with a large volume of people I have yet to come across one person boasting about their welfare benefits.

I call bull****.

My OH works for the PS and her job is processing claims of welfare fraud, the vast vast majority of them turn out to be false or malicious.

Getting angry at welfare recipients because you're in a crap job is pathetic.

I'm genuinely surprised that people think the OP is bullsh1ting.

Taking the case of one friend of mine:
His wife has been unemployed for 3 years.
His mother has never worked a single second in this country.
He was on 24k per year, but packed in his job.

His wife is getting social and is having various courses paid for her.
His mother get disability and has a full medical card, and some type of travel card.
He is receiving social, children's allowance for 2 kids, rent relief and some other things I can't recall. He is also going to have courses paid for him, but is turning into a full time alcoholic. He has no intention of going back to work, he is living the good life now, plays computer all day.
Not one of them holds an Irish passport.

His wife received a major wad of redundacy money, which they could have put toward a house, but they blew most of it.
They are waiting for a council house.

Before anyone tells me to ring the fraud hotline and report them - there is nothing to report - this is all perfectly legal.

SeanW

It's illegal to be on the dole and not looking for work.

Dannyboy83

SeanW wrote: »

It's illegal to be on the dole and not looking for work.

You're also not supposed to receive social welfare if you voluntarily leave your job.

Stabshauptmann

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

You're also not supposed to receive social welfare if you voluntarily leave your job.

Not entirely correct. Theres a 9 week period where you are disqualified, after that its ok.

Stabshauptmann

SeanW wrote: »

It's illegal to be on the dole and not looking for work.

Technically yes, but how do you prove it? The flaw is in the system, whereby only once every 3 months (I think) is someone asked to produce evidence that they are looking for work

retroactive

You can't just quit your job and 'play the game', you have to show proof of why your last job didn't work out - e.g a letter from your employer saying you were let go for economical reasons etc. Once you're on it, everything is gravy.

This is worth a read http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/many-families-better-off-on-welfare-claims-esri-report-555032.html

Stabshauptmann

retroactive wrote: »

You can't just quit your job and 'play the game', you have to show proof of why your last job didn't work out - e.g a letter from your employer saying you were let go for economical reasons etc. Once you're on it, everything is gravy.

This is worth a read http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/many-families-better-off-on-welfare-claims-esri-report-555032.html

Please dont act like you know the facts when you dont. Its not a crime / weakness to put in the odd "iirc" or "afaik".

You can quit your job for no reason and claim the dole. As Ive said, you will simply be disqualified for 9 weeks. After that, you are treated the same as everyone else seeking JSB/JSA.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html
Do a quick Ctrl+F for "9 weeks"

SeanW

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Technically yes, but how do you prove it? The flaw is in the system, whereby only once every 3 months (I think) is someone asked to produce evidence that they are looking for work

True, but if you know the person has no intention of finding work, and is spending all his money in the off license (slowing becoming an alcoholic?) I imagine the social welfare office would welcome that information, since they can investiage. It wouldn't take long to increase scrutiny, up the frequency of "are you looking for work" letters, and possibly other measures.

If you're working a minimum wage job your income should be low enough applying as a mature student that you'd get the full non-adjacent rate of around 6k per year and you'd have the 2k registration fee paid for you. Add the dole over the summer and you'd be getting as much as anyone on the BTEA. Not quite as much as someone moving from the dole but the point of the programme isn't to get people to move from productive workers into liabilities as students.

NakedNNettles

SeanW wrote: »

"are you looking for work" .

"Yes I am"

Your post is laughable stuff. How is that scrutiny?

And what kind of extra measures do you propose they should step up to?

It's not like there is a glut of jobs out there. If there was then the SW could organise and offer positions, if people weren't willing to take them then cut their dole, but the SW don't even have this option to play with.

maninasia

christmas2012 wrote: »

were not all scammers you know..a lot of people have fallen on hard times,job creation is zilch,and there is no other source of income,dont tar us all with the same brush..

Did you read what the OP wrote?

Markcheese

The welfare / low wage trap for families is always going to going to get people going, but how ever you change it your going to affect a lot of genuine people...
Personaly I think everyone on welfare should be doing at least 20/25 hours education , voluntary work or a course . No 25 hours -seriously lower dole ----
We should have the cleanest roadsides , beaches , estates , most visited pensioners, public gardens ect,
If you have a skill, set something up to use it ...if you have an interest in a field train in it, then get a bit of experience ...

Rasheed

Markcheese wrote: »

The welfare / low wage trap for families is always going to going to get people going, but how ever you change it your going to affect a lot of genuine people...
Personaly I think everyone on welfare should be doing at least 20/25 hours education , voluntary work or a course . No 25 hours -seriously lower dole ----
We should have the cleanest roadsides , beaches , estates , most visited pensioners, public gardens ect,
If you have a skill, set something up to use it ...if you have an interest in a field train in it, then get a bit of experience ...

You are dead right, there is loads of those jobs that need to be done, cleaning graveyards, cutting hedges etc. That should whittle down people who genuinely want to work and those who just lazy.

Makes sense to us, don't know why he government can't do something on the same lines!

creedp

Markcheese wrote: »

The welfare / low wage trap for families is always going to going to get people going, but how ever you change it your going to affect a lot of genuine people...
Personaly I think everyone on welfare should be doing at least 20/25 hours education , voluntary work or a course . No 25 hours -seriously lower dole ----
We should have the cleanest roadsides , beaches , estates , most visited pensioners, public gardens ect,
If you have a skill, set something up to use it ...if you have an interest in a field train in it, then get a bit of experience ...

That makes great reading and in theory at least seems faultless policy but have you thought about what parents are going to do with thier children for those 25 hours .. presumably you are going to provide state sponsored childcare for the period or else make it mandatory for grandparents to look after their grandchildren .. oh but what happens if grandparents arent available?

By the way Im with the OP on this .. there is too much welfare fraud in this country so much so that we were/are an internet hit on the topic. Problem how to address it. And before the racists come after me Irish born are equally involved. Having said all that neither is it good enough to make sweeping statements to the fact that everyone must do 25 hours a week for their welfare! Horses for courses.

Also using examples of cases do not mean they can be replicated across the population but neither does it mean they are not accurate. I know someone who was offerred voluntary redundancy from a bank and walked away with €90k. The very next day she was down in the Welfare office demanding her entitlement to €200 pw! This woman was just about to leave her job because she wanted to stay at home with her child .. good timing. She now drives a 12 plate A6. Now that is a fact but Im not claiming it represents everyone who gets voluntary redundancy. So to those people who rubbish examples posted on here, I think they should cool thier jets .. just becasue it doesn't fit with their narritive of the little world they inhabit doesn't mean its rubbish.

hattoncracker

Buttonftw wrote: »

If you're working a minimum wage job your income should be low enough applying as a mature student that you'd get the full non-adjacent rate of around 6k per year and you'd have the 2k registration fee paid for you. Add the dole over the summer and you'd be getting as much as anyone on the BTEA. Not quite as much as someone moving from the dole but the point of the programme isn't to get people to move from productive workers into liabilities as students.

Ehhh... Matures are not automatically entitled to non-adjacent grants anymore... He'll get the adjacent if he lives close by, which is €130 a month, and if he still lives at home he will be based off his parents income, and probably get nothing.

Stabshauptmann

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're working a minimum wage job your income should be low enough applying as a mature student that you'd get the full non-adjacent rate of around 6k per year and you'd have the 2k registration fee paid for you. Add the dole over the summer and you'd be getting as much as anyone on the BTEA. Not quite as much as someone moving from the dole but the point of the programme isn't to get people to move from productive workers into liabilities as students.

If you are in a third level course, and returning to that course in September, you are not entitled to the dole for the summer.

Sin City

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

If you are in a third level course, and returning to that course in September, you are not entitled to the dole for the summer.

Yes you are.

Markcheese

Might be a bit dumb... But social welfare is not a grant to mind your own kids ... Pretty sure if there's two parents you'd find 20 odd hours a week for community work , a single parent isn't on job seekers allowance till their youngest is in secondary school .... Can see lots of flaws with my idea ... That ain't one ....

Stabshauptmann

Markcheese wrote: »

Personaly I think everyone on welfare should be doing at least 20/25 hours education , voluntary work or a course...
We should have the cleanest roadsides , beaches , estates , most visited pensioners, public gardens [etc.]...

You are dead right, there is loads of those jobs that need to be done, cleaning graveyards, cutting hedges etc. That should whittle down people who genuinely want to work and those who just lazy.

Go jump in a lake. This is the type of ignorant twattle we get from our out of touch FG ministers.

A) Do you think doing menial labour for a slave wage* would restore the pride into a skilled professional with a young family who lost his job through no fault of his own?

So Pat, you used to be a IT Manager / Lawyer / Mechanical Engineer and now you scoop up my dogs ****. How the mighty have fallen, eh neighbour

I wouldnt ****ing do it.


Go look for work. It takes a lot of time and energy. Yet you want to facilitate this by taking up half someones week with manual labour :rolleyes:


*You propose say halving someone's dole unless they do 25hours work.
Thats 94euro for 25hours work, which is 3.75per hour. The minimum wage is €8.65.

Laminations

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Go jump in a lake. This is the type of ignorant twattle we get from our out of touch FG ministers.

A) Do you think doing menial labour for a slave wage* would restore the pride into a skilled professional with a young family who lost his job through no fault of his own?

So Pat, you used to be a IT Manager / Lawyer / Mechanical Engineer and now you scoop up my dogs ****. How the mighty have fallen, eh neighbour

I wouldnt ****ing do it.


Go look for work. It takes a lot of time and energy. Yet you want to facilitate this by taking up half someones week with manual labour :rolleyes:


*You propose say halving someone's dole unless they do 25hours work.
Thats 94euro for 25hours work, which is 3.75per hour. The minimum wage is €8.65.

While his suggestion might seem draconian and punative I think we should mobilise as many of the long term unemployed as possible in the community sector. After 1 or 2 years (a time period better decided by politicians) or if having never worked then donating one day a week to a charity or local council would seem fair to keep you engaged and pay back the community that supports you. This would allow plenty of time for ups killing and applying for jobs, the stuff you should be doing with your time.

And you may dismiss these as menial jobs not fit for an out of work architect etc but if you view them as donating time to the community rather than enhancing your employability then there is pride to be taken in a good days work

Voluntary work in the community is not all chain gangs and orange jumpsuits.

Stabshauptmann

Sin City wrote: »

Yes you are.

Well since you said it like that...:rolleyes:

A full-time student does not qualify for Jobseekers Benefit as s/he does not meet the availability condition Section 62(5)(a)(ii) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act, 2005.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/operationalguidelines/pages/jb_jobseekben.aspx


JSA:
The legislation also provides that a person shall be disqualified from receipt of Jobseeker's Allowance while attending a course of study (including school/college holiday periods), except in such circumstances as may be prescribed...
Deciding Officers should note that disqualification while attending a course of study is completely separate from the availability condition.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/schemes/jobseekersupports/jobseekersallowance/Pages/ja.aspx

Stabshauptmann

Laminations wrote: »

While his suggestion might seem draconian and punative I think we should mobilise as many of the long term unemployed as possible in the community sector. After 1 or 2 years (a time period better decided by politicians) or if having never worked then donating one day a week to a charity or local council would seem fair to keep you engaged and pay back the community that supports you. This would allow plenty of time for ups killing and applying for jobs, the stuff you should be doing with your time.

And you may dismiss these as menial jobs not fit for an out of work architect etc but if you view them as donating time to the community rather than enhancing your employability then there is pride to be taken in a good days work

Voluntary work in the community is not all chain gangs and orange jumpsuits.

No. If the work needs to be done, then providing free labour simply takes away a paid job from the community.

The jobsbridge is an abhorrent scheme for this very reason. I know university graduates in business, engineering, and health care who would normally be able to secure a job were it not for the idea that encouraging firms to offer unpaid internships would be good for the unemployed.
edit: Here's an eloquently put argument:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0605/1224317295223.html?fb_ref=.T88-fjkU84o.like&fb_source=timeline

All this is about is punishing those perceived to be lazy because they dont have a job.

There are lazy people, but this is not the way to go about catching them.

Sin City

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Well since you said it like that...:rolleyes:

A full-time student does not qualify for Jobseekers Benefit as s/he does not meet the availability condition Section 62(5)(a)(ii) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act, 2005.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/operationalguidelines/pages/jb_jobseekben.aspx


JSA:
The legislation also provides that a person shall be disqualified from receipt of Jobseeker's Allowance while attending a course of study (including school/college holiday periods), except in such circumstances as may be prescribed...
Deciding Officers should note that disqualification while attending a course of study is completely separate from the availability condition.
http://www.welfare.ie/en/schemes/jobseekersupports/jobseekersallowance/Pages/ja.aspx

You sign on in the summer when your BTA finishes for the year
The summer holdiays arent classed as attending college so you do sign on.

old hippy

What you need is switch to a quasi stasi style state, encourage a culture of grassing on suspected cheats, carrying out surveillance etc. Think of all those jobs that could be created as professional informers. I'm pretty sure the mentality for such an undertaking is already there.

Stabshauptmann

Sin City wrote: »

You sign on in the summer when your BTA finishes for the year
The summer holdiays arent classed as attending college so you do sign on.

The scenario was someone working full time minimum wage, you are going off on a tangent. The rules I have quoted are relevant to the post I was replying to.

I do not know the BTEA rules very well, but they are not relevant to the suggestion that was made; that a regular student can sign on for the summer.