Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

totallegend · 02-05-2012 10:39am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Kidney can be blamed for a lot of things (selections, tactics etc.) but he can only do so much to create a close team atmosphere. The rest lies on the players.

Apologies for the selective quoting...

I would firmly believe that Eddie O'Sullivan was a better coach than Kidney in terms of tactics and selection, but by the end of his tenure, he had taken things as far as he could and 6N 2008 was the final straw. I believe that Kidney has now reached that point and there is a disturbing parallel with the EOS situation, the contract extension pre-World Cup and the absolute hidings we got in Twickenham in 2008 and 2012.

This is not just about Leinster either, by the way. Look at the commitment shown by Ulster against Munster. That level of heart and determination to grind out a victory is not something you get from a coaching session or a team-talk, it's instinctive and it's sub-conscious.

It's rare that we see that from Ireland anymore and I just think things in the national camp have gone stale. The players need to care as much about winning for Ireland as they about winning for Ulster/Leinster/Munster and that's not happening with the present coach.

leftleg · 02-05-2012 10:44am

totallegend wrote: »

Apologies for the selective quoting...

I would firmly believe that Eddie O'Sullivan was a better coach than Kidney in terms of tactics and selection, but by the end of his tenure, he had taken things as far as he could and 6N 2008 was the final straw. I believe that Kidney has now reached that point and there is a disturbing parallel with the EOS situation, the contract extension pre-World Cup and the absolute hidings we got in Twickenham in 2008 and 2012.

This is not just about Leinster either, by the way. Look at the commitment shown by Ulster against Munster. That level of heart and determination to grind out a victory is not something you get from a coaching session or a team-talk, it's instinctive and it's sub-conscious.

It's rare that we see that from Ireland anymore and I just think things in the national camp have gone stale.

and the Leinster contingent aren't pulling there weight.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 10:45am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Re: Kearney, to get things straight

I don't believe Munster players weren't playing for Ireland because of a lack of pride or effort. Similarly I don't think Leinster are either. Munster were not accused of that. To accuse Leinster of that is imbecilic.

I think its hard to buy into a game plan that doesn't suit you. I think the Munster players encountered that with O'Sullivan and I think the Leinster players encounter that with Kidney, perhaps to an even greater extent.

To get the most out of the Munster players it took a massive change in the Irish management. From the coaches to their philosophy to their approach. Everything changed. The only problem was we changed to a system that was outdated by a change in the laws of the game just a couple of months later. We waited too long to take Munster's lead and replicate it on a national level. Ultimately that generation of players paid the price for that lack of action on the part of the IRFU.

After 3 years of vast underperformance its just deja vu.

Admittedly Quinlan may be slow to criticise Kidney, but some weight has to be put into the point he makes explaining why the Munster lads weren't performing. Coaching will obviously be a factor, but what Quinlan says is:

Alan Quinlan wrote:

Obviously nobody goes out to try to underperform for their country or to put in less effort or show less passion. But there’s no doubt it can happen. It can come down to something as small as how comfortable you feel within a group. With your province, you’re training together, playing together, more or less living together.

The Leinster contingent would obviously feel more content with their provincial playing philosophy and successes, but a conscious effort should be made to gel into the national setup.

They are representing a country of ~6million and any feelings towards to coaching staff/philosophy should be cast aside when they are involved with the national setup. Just as the Munster lads had to do once Kearney made it abundantly clear when he stated that they give more to their province that their country. Its that will to fight for one another that we need to once again harness, a fight that was clearly evident as Leinster secured their win against Clermont.

Teferi · 02-05-2012 10:46am

Captain Blackbeard - Notice how all your criticism is about how Leinster are doing well in Europe and Ireland are doing crap, yet you do not mention Ulster who have reached the exact same place as Leinster and lay the blame at their feet too.

It's hard to take your points in anyway seriously when you show such bias.

Not to mention you are using this article to back up your opinion when the article in question is just an opinion piece too.

leftleg · 02-05-2012 10:49am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The Leinster contingent would obviously feel more content with their provincial playing philosophy and successes, but a conscious effort should be made to gel into the national setup.

Now were getting places. maybe a better coach could do this;

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 10:52am

Teferi wrote: »

Captain Blackbeard - Notice how all your criticism is about how Leinster are doing well in Europe and Ireland are doing crap, yet you do not mention Ulster who have reached the exact same place as Leinster and lay the blame at their feet too.

It's hard to take your points in anyway seriously when you show such bias.

Not to mention you are using this article to back up your opinion when the article in question is just an opinion piece too.

Ulster are doing well in Europe this year, Leinster have had continued success over the last 4 years. Anyway, no accusation can be made of the Ulster lads not performing for their country. They may currently have a limited contingent (Ulster's success in Europe will see to that), but of that contingent Ferris and Best have been two of our best performers in the last year.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 10:54am

justsomebloke wrote: »

From my reading it was about how provincial players in general can be seen not to be stepping up to the mark from Munster players in the past to the current Leinster players. However should I be surprised that you are trying to twist it in such a manner that it is purely targeted at Leinster players probably not.

So I'd just like to remind people that some people are just looking for a reaction, please don't give it to them.

My point is generally aimed at the Leinster players as they are the ones that are currently giving more to their provincial cause than the national one. It is not an issue of them not performing well, but one of the magnitude of their respective performances.

Discussion on the forums is generally reserved for current matters, so it would be appropriate that my discussion is directed towards the Leinster lads, as it Quinlan's article.

I'd appreciate if you didn't use your status to as moderator to suggestively influence the opinions of posters. Propaganda at its finest.

bamboozle · 02-05-2012 10:55am

surely its clear to most rugby fans, the provinces are playing very well, players are playing very well for provinces, they put on the green jersey and they are playing completely different tactics not suited to 2012 professional rugby and certainly not conducive to bringing the best out of players.

Finger can only be pointed at the coaching team, their selections and the jaded tactics they are choosing for the team.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 10:56am

leftleg wrote: »

Now were getting places. maybe a better coach could do this;

Sure, a better coach could achieve this, but maybe some responsibility should be levered on the player's shoulders. They are adults after all.

leftleg · 02-05-2012 10:58am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Sure, a better coach could achieve this, but maybe some responsibility should be levered on the player's shoulders. They are adults after all.

Which ones??

02-05-2012 11:00am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The Leinster contingent would obviously feel more content with their provincial playing philosophy and successes, but a conscious effort should be made to gel into the national setup.

What is this ****?

Team A knows how to win, wins everything.
Team B plays a breed of dead rugby, wins nothing, disappoints often.

Player Z is part of both teams.

Does he buy into the Team A ethos, or the Team B ethos?

What happens when doing your best to get into the Team B ethos results in a very obvious and visible step backwards ( remember half the forum dreading getting players "back" from international duty last year?).

If Robbie Keane was asked to play a defensive midfield role by Trappatoni, and Ireland to play football like Stoke he would, but if you criticise him for not scoring goals as a result, you're missing the point. By some distance.

fitz · 02-05-2012 11:07am

I've been banging this drum for 18 months.
I don't think you can expect players to perform to the standard we're seeing from the provinces when you give them a game-plan that they, and everyone else, can see is completely at odds with what is required to be successful in the modern game.

The provinces have adapted to the rule changes.
Kidney hasn't.
It's unbelievably blinkered and flat out stupid to try to say that it's the players fault that they can't perform to the standards they do at the provinces. They're being sent out to play in a way that doesn't utilise them in the ways that have brought those standards and success to the provinces.

At this stage, anyone blaming the players for the extended inconsistency and malaise in the performance of the national team is either kidding themselves, or just doesn't know what they're talking about.

irishbucsfan · 02-05-2012 11:10am

Does this mean Ireland's failure at the 2007 world cup is the Munster players fault then?

Teferi · 02-05-2012 11:12am

Yeah, this is absolute tin-foil hat stuff and Blackbeard is talking rubbish.

The only Leinster player I can think of underperforming for Ireland is Sexton. Doesn't look happy in a green shirt and is playing a completely unnatural game for himself.

Teferi · 02-05-2012 11:13am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Does this mean Ireland's failure at the 2007 world cup is the Munster players fault then?

I actually really want Blackbeard to answer this. Even for the cheap laugh it will provide.

Let's go even further - Blackbeard, how come Ireland won nothing of any real substance in the early and middle 2000's when Munster where on top of their game? Jaysus those Munster lads were really underperforming for Ireland then and looked uncommitted to the team.

CatFromHue · 02-05-2012 11:16am

What Leinster players aren't performing for Ireland though?

Kearney, Healy, Ross, SOB, and Heaslip all perform the same for Leinster as they do for Ireland.

So that just leaves Sexton and D'arcy. Sexton is playing 20 to 30mins per game at inside centre which is pointless and D'arcy is off form for Ireland.

I'd argue the only person who you could say doesn't perform for Ireland like he does for Leinster is D'arcy. Then when you examine it in more details D'arcy doesn't make that many offensive plays for Leinster but is god defensively for them. That's pretty similar to what he does for Ireland.

leftleg · 02-05-2012 11:17am

leftleg wrote: »

Which ones??

I'm waiting for an answer captain........

fitz · 02-05-2012 11:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

What is this ****?

Team A knows how to win, wins everything.
Team B plays a breed of dead rugby, wins nothing, disappoints often.

Player Z is part of both teams.

Does he buy into the Team A ethos, or the Team B ethos?

What happens when doing your best to get into the Team B ethos results in a very obvious and visible step backwards ( remember half the forum dreading getting players "back" from international duty last year?).

If Robbie Keane was asked to play a defensive midfield role by Trappatoni, and Ireland to play football like Stoke he would, but if you criticise him for not scoring goals as a result, you're missing the point. By some distance.

Another way of looking at it:

Take a winning F1 driver out of his current car and stick him in a car from 3 years ago, which has old technology that is now redundant.
Then blame him when he doesn't win any more.

Yeah, real clever...

leftleg · 02-05-2012 11:20am

I was wondering where my blinkers had got to...

CatFromHue · 02-05-2012 11:26am

Teferi wrote: »

how come Ireland won nothing of any real substance in the early and middle 2000's when Munster where on top of their game? Jaysus those Munster lads were really underperforming for Ireland then and looked uncommitted to the team.

We came second in the 6Nations in 2001, 2003, and 2004 to teams who won the Grand Slam. Excellent teams at that too as England showed when they won the RWC. We lterally went from a team who would win 1 or 2 games in the 90's to a team that was winning 3 or 4 games on average. It may look like nothing now but that was phenomenal for Ireland back then.

rrpc · 02-05-2012 11:29am

I think it's more than a bit disingenuous to be directing these comments at Leinster players alone. ROG has been lauded for his performances in the HEC for Munster and in the shortlist for player of the year. His points tally in the HEC is the highest so far and by quite a margin and his team were one of only two to get through the pool stages unbeaten. This when it's universally accepted that Munster are in a rebuilding phase and a fair distance short of their usual high standards.

Conversely his performances in the Irish shirt have been below the standard he set himself in the HEC. Most telling of all though have been his frequent and thinly veiled attacks on the Irish management's selection policies with regard to himself. It's hard to believe that he is happy with the current setup when he feels the need to vent his frustrations to the media rather than (or perhaps as well as) behind closed doors.

The oft quoted question by Rob Kearney back in 08 is being read in only one way - as reflecting on Munster player's dedication to the Irish cause. What isn't being said, is what if any was the answer to that question and whether in fact it was a case of blaming the players at all.

After all, Kearney could well have been asking what well the Munster players were drinking from when wearing the red shirt and why it couldn't be bottled and served to them when wearing the green shirt.

Edit: Just to add that there does not appear to be anything other than the strongest team bond between the players from all the provinces selected for Ireland. I've often seen ROG and Sexton backslapping and embracing after a match win and congratulating each other. They've both said that they work well together and Sexton has referred to ROG helping him with aspects of his game - especially place kicking. After an interpro, there's always a fair bit of good sportsmanship between players towards each other regardless of how many lumps they took off each other during the game. In short, I don't see any interprovincial rivalry between the players once they pull on the green shirt.

justsomebloke · 02-05-2012 11:35am

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you didn't use your status to as moderator to suggestively influence the opinions of posters. Propaganda at its finest.

ok me trying to say it nicely didn't seem to work so I'll say it in a manner that maybe you'll understand

Stop your leinster bashing and trolling it is getting very tiresome any more and you'll be banned. Given your ban record in the forum your next ban will be at least a 6 month ban

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 11:36am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Does this mean Ireland's failure at the 2007 world cup is the Munster players fault then?

Is Ireland's failure in the 2011 world cup the Leinster player's fault?

I was going to make the point that it is the mid-season tournaments like the 6N which would have the biggest effect. It would be much harder for players to manage the transition from club to country in the middle of a season when they are in full provincial mode.

It will obviously difficult to transition from top of the provincial ladder to middle of the international one. but the players need to manage this transition better. If the national management stays the same and the new coaching teams at Ulster and Munster have a similar effect as to Schmidt's appointment at Leinster, we may be in for an even worse 6N next year.

CatFromHue wrote: »

What Leinster players aren't performing for Ireland though?

Kearney, Healy, Ross, SOB, and Heaslip all perform the same for Leinster as they do for Ireland.

Of that group, neither Sexton or D'Arcy bring the same quality of performance to the table at international level as they do at provincial level. Heaslip too performs much better for Leinster than he does for Ireland. SOB would be a difficult one to judge as he was stilll adjusting to the #7 jersey when he has last played for Ireland and he is not the barnstorming 6 he was when he first came on the scene.

Arguments can be made that Ireland's gameplan does not suit a player like Sexton, but it up to him to make those feelings known to management. We were consistently told that the players are encouraged to play what is in front of them, so you'd assume that the same happens in training when deciding tactics etc. The coaches are not autocratic and Sexton (my example) should step up as a senior player and make a comment on how to get the most out of himself and those around him.

totallegend · 02-05-2012 11:38am

rrpc wrote: »

The oft quoted question by Rob Kearney back in 08 is being read in only one way - as reflecting on Munster player's dedication to the Irish cause. What isn't being said, is what if any was the answer to that question and whether in fact it was a case of blaming the players at all.

Off-topic, but I think O'Gara was pants in this year's HC; everything positive came from his boot and it's not enough for a modern out-half.

But since the man himself hs popped up, why are we only focussing on Kearney's comments (in a private team meeting)? This was in a public press conference in 2008:

Ronan O'Gara wrote:

"I don't think our problems are outside with the opposition. I think we just need to start buying into the Irish jersey a bit more and that's where it starts for this weekend."

Reflecting on the disappointment of losing 22-3 to the All Blacks, he insisted: "There's something lacking, I've been asking myself all week what is it and I'm struggling for answers.

(The Munster game) showed with passion what you can achieve. And I think we can learn from that and start playing for each other."

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/6908.php

Lelantos · 02-05-2012 11:39am

justsomebloke wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd appreciate if you didn't use your status to as moderator to suggestively influence the opinions of posters. Propaganda at its finest.

ok me trying to say it nicely didn't seem to work so I'll say it in a manner that maybe you'll understand

Stop your leinster bashing and trolling it is getting very tiresome any more and you'll be banned. Given your ban record in the forum your next ban will be at least a 6 month ban

This whole thread is a blame game, blame Munster players for past Ireland failures, blame Leinster players for current failures, and blame Kidney for overseeing the whole debacle. I see nothing constructive in thus thread & may I suggest that the provincial lines drawn here can be seen within the national team, ask Mick Galwey

irishbucsfan · 02-05-2012 11:44am

Noone is blaming the Munster players for anything in the past.

Kearney wasn't even doing that FFS

Teferi · 02-05-2012 11:47am

CatFromHue wrote: »

We came second in the 6Nations in 2001, 2003, and 2004 to teams who won the Grand Slam. Excellent teams at that too as England showed when they won the RWC. We lterally went from a team who would win 1 or 2 games in the 90's to a team that was winning 3 or 4 games on average. It may look like nothing now but that was phenomenal for Ireland back then.

I though it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic considering I was talking to Captain Blackbeard...

Cpt_Blackbeard · 02-05-2012 11:52am

justsomebloke wrote: »

ok me trying to say it nicely didn't seem to work so I'll say it in a manner that maybe you'll understand

Stop your leinster bashing and trolling it is getting very tiresome any more and you'll be banned. Given your ban record in the forum your next ban will be at least a 6 month ban

I interpreted your saying it nicely as an attempt to influence the forum while posing as a normal contributor to the forum (hence propaganda statement). If you had sought to give a warning as you just have, it would have been better understood had you actually given the warning.

rrpc wrote: »

I think it's more than a bit disingenuous to be directing these comments at Leinster players alone. ROG has been lauded for his performances in the HEC for Munster and in the shortlist for player of the year.

I think you'll find it difficult to find anyone who hugely rates ROG's performances this year. I'd have no issue in saying that he has performed to a higher standard for his province in Europe than he has consistently for Ireland. Much of that is down to the physicality difference between the levels, but he has still been a world-class international 10 in his day. That said, I do think that ROG prefers playing for Munster, and that is not the right mentality.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone is blaming the Munster players for anything in the past.

Kearney wasn't even doing that FFS

I interpreted Kearney's statement as wanting to tap into Munster's spirit of fighting for one another and never giving up, and apply it to the national team. Just as I feel we need to tap into the similar reserve no so prevalent in the Leinster lads.

The team ethic of the provinces, is not being transfered to the national setup.

02-05-2012 11:53am

For reference for a Munster player who has been far poorer in green than in Red,

has anyone ever seen Conor Murray kick a ball as often as he does for Ireland? He's clearly not comfortable in the Irish jersey, alongside quite a number of other far more experienced internationals too.

This is not a "localised Leinster phenomenom". The leashes that the Irish team are wearing has crippled some players.

Note that others don't look out of sorts because the Irish gameplan involves them so much. Rory Best winning absolutely incredible reviews, he has stepped his game up a notch, but he's far more apparent in green than in white.

irishbucsfan · 02-05-2012 11:54am

To me this screams of jealousy that Leinsters good form can't be reproduced for Ireland. And when the national coach is from Cork who else can you blame but the players, regardless of the fact theyre playing just as well for Ireland on an individual level.

Look at the players:

Healy, playing well
Ross, playing well
O'Brien, was superb against France
Heaslip, played better for Ireland than he did when he returned
Reddan, hardly given a chance but played well when he did
Sexton, played ok, best defensive display from an Irish out half in the professional era takes massive passion
D'Arcy, didn't play great imo, but got himself a contract... Which would have been on Kidneys recommendation
Kearney, maybe the best ever 6 Nation's from an Irish full back

Which players there need to do more?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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