Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Hagz

Tox56 wrote: »

BOD?? He has to at least play some part. I would like to see Cave get a start, but not at the same time as McFadden. You need some experience in such an important part of the pitch.

I know but the original question was sort of a "if you could come up with any team team you'd like to see". It's obviously not the team I'd go with. With regard to the O'Driscoll, I would like to see him rested at the very least for one of the tests.

Lelantos

Hagz wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

BOD?? He has to at least play some part. I would like to see Cave get a start, but not at the same time as McFadden. You need some experience in such an important part of the pitch.

I know but the original question was sort of a "if you could come up with any team team you'd like to see". It's obviously not the team I'd go with. With regard to the O'Driscoll, I would like to see him rested at the very least for one of the tests.

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

Hagz

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

Hmmm. Matter of opinion I guess.

irishbucsfan

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

I'm a Leinster fan and I agree that I haven't seen anything from him yet at 12 that would have me thinking he should be playing there for Ireland.

Lelantos

Hagz wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

Hmmm. Matter of opinion I guess.

It's the Leinster coaching opinion for the games that count, if Darcy is fit, he plays, McFadden doesn't

Tox56

Lelantos wrote: »

Hagz wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

Hmmm. Matter of opinion I guess.

It's the Leinster coaching opinion for the games that count, if Darcy is fit, he plays, McFadden doesn't

It's not as simple as that, McFadden started at 13 several times with D'Arcy, and started ahead of him in one of the group games.

Ireland don't have a Pro12 league to test players like Leinster, so experimentation must happen in matches. Similarly, if Leinster had 3 HEC semi-finals in 3 weeks at the end of the season, I would bet D'Arcy would not start all 3. That is the scenario facing Ireland in NZ.

GerM

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, not so much Cave, more McFadden, I know I will get howls of derision from Leinster fans, but the guy isn't international class

A lot less than you might anticipate. Many Leinster fans, including myself, don't particularly rate him as a centre. He doesn't have the attacking game to be a top class 12 nor the defensive game to be a top class 13.

Hagz

Lelantos wrote: »

It's the Leinster coaching opinion for the games that count, if Darcy is fit, he plays, McFadden doesn't

I still think it's an opinion. D'Arcy hasn't' experienced the drop in form at club level that he has at international level, so why drop him for McFadden?
That sounds strange when I'm arguing for McFadden to be given a start for Ireland I know. But other than McFadden, there is no other young 12 in the country. So there are 3 options. Continue with an out of form D'Arcy for the three tests. Go with the in form Wallace with an eye to the present. Or give McFadden a start at 12.

Personally I feel McFadden has been good at 12 for Leinster this season. He has a kicking facet to his game as well as genuine pace, added to his powerful carrying.

Finally, just because I see no point in dropping D'Arcy at Leinster does not mean I feel he's the better player. I would not be worried if McFadden was given the 12 jersey in the final. I just wouldn't drop D'Arcy because he's playing well and why mess with a winning system. The difference with Ireland is that it's not a winning system. So I think there should be a small amount of room to meddle.

tolosenc

Hagz wrote: »

there is no other young 12 in the country.

Danny Barnes. :rolleyes:

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

Personally I feel McFadden has been good at 12 for Leinster this season. He has a kicking facet to his game

I've seen people mention this before but he really doesn't unless you're referring to his goal kicking which doesn't really matter in relation to his position or when Sexton is always on the park at the same time. McFadden played 4 games in the centre in the HEC this season and didn't put boot to ball once in those games. The majority of the time I've seen him kick from hand it has been clearing kicks from his own territory, hammered down the field. The most memorable kick he had this season was an ugly slice from his own 22 that scampered into touch fortunately. I really think he'd be a very good winger if he got a good run there.

GerM

tolosenc wrote: »

Danny Barnes. :rolleyes:

Is a 13 who has played 12.

Hagz

GerM wrote: »

I've seen people mention this before but he really doesn't unless you're referring to his goal kicking which doesn't really matter in relation to his position or when Sexton is always on the park at the same time. McFadden played 4 games in the centre in the HEC this season and didn't put boot to ball once in those games. The majority of the time I've seen him kick from hand it has been clearing kicks from his own territory, hammered down the field. The most memorable kick he had this season was an ugly slice from his own 22 that scampered into touch fortunately. I really think he'd be a very good winger if he got a good run there.

I'm basing it on my memory of him pinging a few sweet kicks at P12 level this season, although I could be mistaken or over-exaggerating 2 or 3 good kicks. Willing to accept your point given that I'm really not arsed finding evidence to back mine up:D

With regards to him as a winger. He could be a good winger, but christ don't we have enough of those!? The other theory of course is that Fitzgerald could make a good 12, push McFadden to the wing and Fitzgerald to 12. But I'm not willing to buy into that theory until I see some sort of willingness from Fitzgerald to play centre. The feeling I got was that he was playing there out of necessity and wanted to get back out on the wing as soon a possible.

Cpt_Blackbeard

GerM wrote: »

I've seen people mention this before but he really doesn't unless you're referring to his goal kicking which doesn't really matter in relation to his position or when Sexton is always on the park at the same time. McFadden played 4 games in the centre in the HEC this season and didn't put boot to ball once in those games. The majority of the time I've seen him kick from hand it has been clearing kicks from his own territory, hammered down the field. The most memorable kick he had this season was an ugly slice from his own 22 that scampered into touch fortunately. I really think he'd be a very good winger if he got a good run there.

If Schmidt plays him at 11 in Fitz' absence, he could/should get ahead of Trimble in the pecking order for the #14 jersey.

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

With regards to him as a winger. He could be a good winger, but christ don't we have enough of those!?

We do have wingers but how many are undoubted HEC quality which McFadden would be, I think, if he played there? Horgan is gone. Carr isn't HEC standard. Fitzgerald and Conway are constantly broken. Not sure if Hudson has the goods. Isa and Dave Kearney are the only other wingers that are generally fit and of the required standard. I think we've a lot of options in the centre with more natural centres than McFadden. Reid, Macken and EOM are all more natural centres, I think. I'd like to see them get the available game time next year in the Pro12. I believe Reid and Macken can go very far if they get the chance.

Tox56

I just think Mcfadden has been shunted around too often (mostly due to BOD's injury) this season, and when he has had BOD outside him he has looked good imo. I definitely wouldn't be giving up on him as a 12 just yet.

Hagz

GerM wrote: »

We do have wingers but how many are undoubted HEC quality which McFadden would be, I think, if he played there? Horgan is gone. Carr isn't HEC standard. Fitzgerald and Conway are constantly broken. Not sure if Hudson has the goods. Isa and Dave Kearney are the only other wingers that are generally fit and of the required standard. I think we've a lot of options in the centre with more natural centres than McFadden. Reid, Macken and EOM are all more natural centres, I think. I'd like to see them get the available game time next year in the Pro12. I believe Reid and Macken can go very far if they get the chance.

Well, when I said we have a lot of wingers I meant at international level. From a Leinster perspective, now that Horgan's gone there is a case for it. Although I would be one of the remaining hopefuls refusing to accept that Conway isn't a future star.

The problem with the centers you mentioned is that
1. O'Malley is a 13, although he has played at 12, I would be of the opinion that he is an out and out 13.
2. Macken is imo a 13. I don't like the idea of him at 12 simply because I feel that he's better served at 13 as well as the questions surrounding his distribution. I do think he'll go far.
3. I know there are a lot of people who think Reid is quality, but I have huge doubts surrounding him. Doubts that I'd be happy to see proven wrong.

Out of those three centers, none of them are out and out 12s. Sheridan was the guy coming through but he's just as broken as Conway is. I think that if Fitz won't shift to 12, then McFadden is the future 12 when D'Arcy retires.

RoundBox11

With regard to the NZ tour i think the 12 situation could be temporarily "plastered over" by playing BOD at 12 with Earls or Cave outside him. That would open up a wing slot for McFadden/D. Kearney/Zebo/Gilroy or whoever Kidney wants to try there.

I know its not a great long term option but i think it would be a good idea, given that it allows for further development of a new 13, while opening up a spot on the wing.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing McFadden at 12, but if he's not ready at test level at 12 i think putting him there vs the all blacks won't end too well. I think D'Arcy doesnt deserve a starting spot so shouldn't get it. I'd have no complaints about Wallace starting at 12 either but it doesnt help our future options either.

On another note, any word on Paul O'Connell's injury?

CatFromHue

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I'd have no complaints about Wallace starting at 12 either but it doesnt help our future options either.

If you're good enough you're old enough. You can't always be building for the future and certainly in respect to the next RWC it'd be pointless to be even thinking about it now. We should be playing our strongest possible team and if Wallace is in that bracket then he should play. I personally would love to see him get a game. Certainly when you think back to the pre RWC warm up games and even in the games he played at the RWC Wallace looked pretty handy to me. I'd have had him at 12 for the OZ, Italy, and Wales games at the RWC myself.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I like Wallace at Ulster because when there he plays as a 2nd five eights type of 12. I don't like him in green because he tries to be Darcy and ends up looking poor. He isn't the second distributive axis that he is at Ulster.

RoundBox11

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you're good enough you're old enough. You can't always be building for the future and certainly in respect to the next RWC it'd be pointless to be even thinking about it now. We should be playing our strongest possible team and if Wallace is in that bracket then he should play. I personally would love to see him get a game. Certainly when you think back to the pre RWC warm up games and even in the games he played at the RWC Wallace looked pretty handy to me. I'd have had him at 12 for the OZ, Italy, and Wales games at the RWC myself.

Fair enough.

But I don't believe that Wallace at 12 along side BOD at 13 is any better than BOD at 12 with Earls or Cave at 13.

And by playing Earls or Cave at 13 allows for their further development while maintaining the experience and leadership provided by BOD. Also as i said before, if Earls is played at 13 alongside BOD it would force Kidney to give somebody new a go on the wing.
I would bring Wallace as part of the squad and i'd pick him ahead of Darce, but i just think given that it's a good opportunity to give one or two new players a go.
I'm not saying to blood a whole new team. I'd only introduce maybe 2 or 3 new faces max per game.

thomond2006

I'm guessing the tour squad will be announced any day now?

I'm actually looking forward to the Barbarians game, hopefully a few players will put their hands up.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm guessing the tour squad will be announced any day now?

I'm actually looking forward to the Barbarians game, hopefully a few players will put their hands up.

Would it be this early? I'd have thought they'd wait until after the H Cup?

I suppose that might be too late

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm guessing the tour squad will be announced any day now?

Do you think? Considering we still have three rounds to go, one of which will involve two Irish teams knocking the sh*te out of each other in the biggest game of the season, I would think it's very premature to announce a squad because a) guys will still be hoping there's time to make an impression on Kidney and b) further injuries are almost inevitable.

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm actually looking forward to the Barbarians game, hopefully a few players will put their hands up.

I don't know what to make of this game tbh. Like, if some young guy goes out and tears it up against a BaaBaas team who've been on the lash for a few days, is it an indication of how well they're going to fare in NZ? Or if we have to field a team without Munster and/or Leinster guys and get hockeyed, is that fair either?

Deleted User

Thought it made more sense to take this discussion out of the Munster thread.

Deleted User wrote: »

seriously wtf

I'd appreciate if you could post (in the Ireland thread obviously), any reasons for this ridiculous misconception that Heaslip has been "bad" at any stage in the past 12 months.

What is he not doing? What do you want him doing more of? What do you expect from him that he's not getting done enough? I asked someone to substantiate their reasoning on the matter before and when pressed they went suspiciously quiet. It's actually head wrecking that I see this posted so often by people who actually seem to know what they're talking about mostly.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

His carrying has been poor for an International 8, he's behind Ferris, SOB and Healy now as out "go to" carrier. He has an increasing tendency to fade in and out of games now. He's also been notably shut down by Wales in the last two tests. My abiding memory of that quarter final is him being ran into touch like an also-ran.

Now, i know people will counter that he's just not as good at carrying at Healy, SOB and Ferris, and fair enough he isn't, but that itself is hardly a proud boast.

He's not being asked to carry. Being behind Ferris and SOB in the carrying stakes isn't exactly a massive shame, considering they're probably both in the "top 10 carriers" in World Rugby. It's like slamming ROG for being second best kicker in the Rabo12 behind Sexton. This isn't Talladega nights, if you're not first, you're not automatically last.

This 'tendency' you speak of is massively subjective, funny that the above came from you asking for specific instances where someone else had questioned the ability of another player. This subjectivity isn't based on anything that we can discuss, otherwise you would've mentioned times when he's faded. A certain pretty ironic nickname that has been pandered around has given people cause to actively search out times when Heaslip isn't playing 100% of the game at 100 miles an hour. It's pretty funny, and petty, and belongs in the realms of wind-up-merchants and pub speak.

Notably shut down by Wales? That's pretty funny, I'm almost certain that there was 14 others notably shut down by them too. We were absolutely enveloped by a far superior gameplan (that was blindingly obvious to most on here too!) and played directly into their hands. I can't recall Heaslip kicking away possession with alarm regularlarity, can't recall him missing important tackles, can't recall a repeated set of knock ons, can't recall him taking ball into himself and making no net yards over a whole game.

Yet we have 4 ex-Lions players in ROG, D'Arcy, BOD and POC whom these things all happened to in the same time period and Heaslip has been "bad for 12 months"?

Pull the other one.

donfers wrote: »

I don't think he has necessarily been bad in the last year, just very average and not as effective as he was in previous seasons - maybe it's the balance in the back row that has caused him to modify his role but he certainly has beenn nowhere near as dynamic as he used to be

I mean all the talk at the world cup was that we had the best back row in the world, but then you look at the six nations and well i don't often agree with george hook but he was spot on when he said in every game he was outplayed by his opposite number 8


back to munster, a new backs coach and maybe a NZ u-21 player to come into the back row as project player - thank you

His role has changed massively in the side with the introduction of SOB. He's become an absolute menace at the breakdown, with consistently high turnover stats and penalties forced. He's still the number 1 #8 when it comes to unclean ball from a scrum, evidenced recently enough in the Leinster v Clermont semi final.

Like I said before, if Trappatoni asks Robbie Keane to play a defensive midfield role at the Euros, and he plays it absolutely perfectly, people criticising him for not scoring any goals have massively missed the point of his role in the team. (Trappatoni would need his head examined if he were to ask him to do so, but a shining example could help some people see the light).

irishbucsfan

Heaslip has had a target on his back for years now. People were criticising him during the world cup despite him being one of our most influential players. Some people just want to see him fail I guess.

I personally think his form has slipped a little. I think he was well marked as a carrier and was able to maintain a massive amount of influence by switching his focus to the defensive side of his game. Other teams weren't focusing on clearing him out as much as they would a 7 like Warburton and so he managed to spoil and steal tons of possession while SOB took his ball carrying on. Nowadays I think that partnership has been analysed and targeted.

The answer for me would be the addition of another back row. POM, Henry or Dom Ryan. Rotate them in and out and have the roles constantly changing. It makes it harder to play us. Use the 19 jersey better than we have been. Then we'll see them all freed up to do what they do best.

shuffol

I think Heaslip is the type of player that you only really appreciate when he's not in the side. That said he has lost an aggressiveness to his carrying that was there in 2010, too often he dips into contact as if to brace himself for the collision, at his best he was using his excellent footwork to stand up defenders and attack a weak shoulder. I think 8 is a position in the backrow where more competition is needed, would've liked to see POM coming on for Heaslip in a few games in the 6N with SOB moving to 8.

Cpt_Blackbeard

The idea that Heaslip's role as a ball carrier has greatly diminished since the introduction of SOB isn't a great one in my book. It held some credence during the WC when SOB was carrying brilliantly, but it does not explain Heaslip's role during the 6N. During the 6N SOB carried less and concentrated more on his groundwork. Heaslip was no more prominent as a carrier.

Heaslip's best form in an Irish jersey coincided with Ferris and Wallace as his flankers. Despite Wallace performing well on the ground, defending the 10 channel and being our primary carrier in the pack (all tasks SOB attempts), Heaslip still found a way to stand out and make big carries.

The simple fact is that Heaslip isn't as good as he was a few years ago. He has lost aggression when carrying the ball and he no longer attacks the gainline with any passion. Despite this, he is still performing well as a backrow forward. His problems lie as a specialist 8.

profitius

Ireland have plenty of backrowers these days so I can't see why Heaslip is an ever present in the team. Hes not setting the world alight and there are potentially better options.

I'd like to see SOB moved to 8 to add a bit of power to the backrow.

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

Ireland have plenty of backrowers these days so I can't see why Heaslip is an ever present in the team. Hes not setting the world alight and there are potentially better options.

I'd like to see SOB moved to 8 to add a bit of power to the backrow.

Ferris at 6 obviously, who would you play at 7?

profitius

I read an article a few weeks back about Heaslip. It said his injury free run over the last few years ment he has been played alot and he could be suffering from burnout. Its a valid reason. A good break from the game could give him back the edge again.

danthefan wrote: »

Ferris at 6 obviously, who would you play at 7?

Henry or POM. Henry probably with POM on the bench to cover the whole backrow. I'd like to see POM introduced slowly on the Irish team.

I also believe strongly in rotation. Irish provinces do it but Kidney doesn't. The provinces are successful, while Ireland looks a bit stale.