Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56

I'm up for experimentation in the backrow as much as anywhere else, as long as Kidney recognises this and doesn't limit change to just Heaslip. There are more important areas to address

danthefan

profitius wrote: »

I read an article a few weeks back about Heaslip. It said his injury free run over the last few years ment he has been played alot and he could be suffering from burnout. Its a valid reason. A good break from the game could give him back the edge again.

danthefan wrote: »

Ferris at 6 obviously, who would you play at 7?

Henry or POM. Henry probably with POM on the bench to cover the whole backrow. I'd like to see POM introduced slowly on the Irish team.

I also believe strongly in rotation. Irish provinces do it but Kidney doesn't. The provinces are successful, while Ireland looks a bit stale.

I would not object to giving that a shot but I've reservations about POM. He didn't add anything to the side in the 6N really and was easily beaten against both Leinster and Ulster there in the last few weeks, Jennings and Henry both outplayed him.

justsomebloke

Has SOB had many standout matches for Leinster at 8?

totallegend

justsomebloke wrote: »

Has SOB had many standout matches for Leinster at 8?

He pretty much beat Ulster by himself in December 2010 IIRC.

Didn't he get MOTM in all three back-row positions in last year's HC as well?

fitz

A fit and in form Dom Ryan would be ahead of POM every time on my team sheet.
This nonsense about Heaslip and SOB being anonymous is just that. Nonsense.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I really do wonder what it will take for some people to realise the difference is in how they are being used.

Calls to bring in the likes of POM ahead of players who have comprehensively outplayed the other provinces backrows on each occassion this season smacks of provincial bias.

profitius

fitz wrote: »

A fit and in form Dom Ryan would be ahead of POM every time on my team sheet.
This nonsense about Heaslip and SOB being anonymous is just that. Nonsense.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I really do wonder what it will take for some people to realise the difference is in how they are being used.

Calls to bring in the likes of POM ahead of players who have comprehensively outplayed the other provinces backrows on each occassion this season smacks of provincial bias.

POM has picked up numerous MOTM awards. This in a season when Munster are in a bit of disarray in terms of injuries. Hes also being shifted all over the backrow and played well in each. He didn't look out of place in the 6 nations either.

I'd agree with you with regards to provincial bias.

part time punk

totallegend wrote: »

He pretty much beat Ulster by himself in December 2010 IIRC.

Didn't he get MOTM in all three back-row positions in last year's HC as well?

About SOB at 8, just wondering has he played much there behind a beaten/retreating scrum? Heaslip always impresses me with his contol at the back of the scrum which I think is a huge part of the 8's role.

Cpt_Blackbeard

fitz wrote: »

A fit and in form Dom Ryan would be ahead of POM every time on my team sheet.

You mean the same Dom Ryan who cannot get a look-in for Leinster, should be ahead of this year's standout young Irish player? Funny how you go on to mention provincial bias after that statement...

fitz wrote: »

Calls to bring in the likes of POM ahead of players who have comprehensively outplayed the other provinces backrows on each occassion this season smacks of provincial bias.

Should Coughlan have went to the WC ahead of Heaslip as he outplayed him every time they met last season?

Foxtrol

part time punk wrote: »

About SOB at 8, just wondering has he played much there behind a beaten/retreating scrum? Heaslip always impresses me with his contol at the back of the scrum which I think is a huge part of the 8's role.

Agree with this. Also, with the fall off in SOB’s running game (whether it be form, tactical or negated through teams being more prepared for him) I’m not sure if the main positive he brought to the 8 jersey the few times he played there last season would be quite so evident right now.

fitz

profitius wrote: »

POM has picked up numerous MOTM awards. This in a season when Munster are in a bit of disarray in terms of injuries. Hes also being shifted all over the backrow and played well in each. He didn't look out of place in the 6 nations either.

I'd agree with you with regards to provincial bias.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, but calling for him to start ahead of Ferris, SOB, Heaslip or Henry is a bit much.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You mean the same Dom Ryan who cannot get a look-in for Leinster, should be ahead of this year's standout young Irish player? Funny how you go on to mention provincial bias after that statement...

Dom Ryan who's just coming back from a long term injury, and who looks like he could be one of the best 7's we have available. Fair enough, perhaps he's a season off reaching that potential. People bang on about how we're weak at 7, then call for another player who's better at 6 or 8 than they are at 7 over actual 7's. It's the "move BOD to 12 to accommodate Earls" argument again. It doesn't make sense in either case.

Monty Burnz

fitz wrote: »

It's the "move BOD to 13 to accommodate Earls" argument again. It doesn't make sense in either case.

I think that that would eminently sensible. :pac:

CIARAN_BOYLE

fitz wrote: »

Dom Ryan who's just coming back from a long term injury, and who looks like he could be one of the best 7's we have available. Fair enough, perhaps he's a season off reaching that potential. People bang on about how we're weak at 7, then call for another player who's better at 6 or 8 than they are at 7 over actual 7's. It's the "move BOD to 13 to accommodate Earls" argument again. It doesn't make sense in either case.

Dom Ryan is a quality young player, but he is still a young player who has missed a lot of this season. Next year if he gets his chance with Leinster (which he will) and takes it and stays fit then maybe he could break through.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think that that would eminently sensible. :pac:

I think he meant move BOD to 12 to accommodate Earls

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You mean the same Dom Ryan who cannot get a look-in for Leinster, should be ahead of this year's standout young Irish player? Funny how you go on to mention provincial bias after that statement...

Ugh, provincial p*ssing contest. Great, but can we at least keep it sensible?

This season, O'Mahony was competing for a place with Niall Ronan, James Coughlan and Denis Leamy playing on one leg.

Ryan is competing with Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings and Ruddock.

I don't know who is the better player, and at their age I don't care, but to dismiss Ryan because he's not first choice at Leinster is a ridiculous argument. Surely even you can see that.

fitz

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

fitz wrote: »

Dom Ryan who's just coming back from a long term injury, and who looks like he could be one of the best 7's we have available. Fair enough, perhaps he's a season off reaching that potential. People bang on about how we're weak at 7, then call for another player who's better at 6 or 8 than they are at 7 over actual 7's. It's the "move BOD to 13 to accommodate Earls" argument again. It doesn't make sense in either case.

Dom Ryan is a quality young player, but he is still a young player who has missed a lot of this season. Next year if he gets his chance with Leinster (which he will) and takes it and stays fit then maybe he could break through.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think that that would eminently sensible. :pac:

I think he meant move BOD to 12 to accommodate Earls

Fair cop on Ryan. I'd have Henry ahead of POM currently, and I reckon Ryan will overtake him next season.

And yes, meant BOD to 12. Oops!
Big thumbs and phone not a good mix...

phog

danthefan wrote: »

I would not object to giving that a shot but I've reservations about POM. He didn't add anything to the side in the 6N really and was easily beaten against both Leinster and Ulster there in the last few weeks, Jennings and Henry both outplayed him.

While he may not have added anything he certainly didn't take anything either, in fact the kick up the arse that SOB got from being subbed may have added to the overall performance of what was a subdued backrow.

Also, I think you're trying to measure POM in a Munster backrow that is decimated with injury to two in form and fit backrows of Ulster and Leinster.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

I would not object to giving that a shot but I've reservations about POM. He didn't add anything to the side in the 6N really and was easily beaten against both Leinster and Ulster there in the last few weeks, Jennings and Henry both outplayed him.

While he may not have added anything he certainly didn't take anything either, in fact the kick up the arse that SOB got from being dropped may have added to the overall performance of what was a subdued backrow.

Also, I think you're trying to measure POM in a Munster backrow that is decimated with injury to two in form and fit backrows of Ulster and Leinster.

SOB was never dropped.

Cpt_Blackbeard

totallegend wrote: »

Ugh, provincial p*ssing contest. Great, but can we at least keep it sensible?

This season, O'Mahony was competing for a place with Niall Ronan, James Coughlan and Denis Leamy playing on one leg.

Ryan is competing with Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings and Ruddock.

I don't know who is the better player, and at their age I don't care, but to dismiss Ryan because he's not first choice at Leinster is a ridiculous argument. Surely even you can see that.

How have I dismissed Ryan? He has played next to no serious rugby this year, so calling for his inclusion in the Irish setup is completely baseless and premature. He is a very promising player, but until he gets some first team rugby, he shouldn't be considered.

Putting him ahead of POM who is a key Munster player, has captained Munster in the Rabo, has excelled (MOTM awards) at HEC and PRO12 level, and has performed well for Ireland when called upon, is the only thing that smacks of bias around here.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Putting him ahead of Henry who is a key Ulster player, has captained Ulster in the Rabo, has excelled (MOTM awards) at HEC and PRO12 level, and has performed well for Ireland when called upon, is the only thing that smacks of bias around here.

fyp

ray jay

It would be ridiculous to include Dom Ryan in the Irish 22 at this point, there are several players ahead of him currently. If he has a good season next year then he could be considered, but there's no good reason to do so now.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

fyp

I wasn't aware that posters where putting Ryan ahead of Henry too. Thanks for the correction.

:rolleyes:

fitz

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

totallegend wrote: »

Ugh, provincial p*ssing contest. Great, but can we at least keep it sensible?

This season, O'Mahony was competing for a place with Niall Ronan, James Coughlan and Denis Leamy playing on one leg.

Ryan is competing with Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings and Ruddock.

I don't know who is the better player, and at their age I don't care, but to dismiss Ryan because he's not first choice at Leinster is a ridiculous argument. Surely even you can see that.

How have I dismissed Ryan? He has played next to no serious rugby this year, so calling for his inclusion in the Irish setup is completely baseless and premature. He is a very promising player, but until he gets some first team rugby, he shouldn't be considered.

Putting him ahead of POM who is a key Munster player, has captained Munster in the Rabo, has excelled (MOTM awards) at HEC and PRO12 level, and has performed well for Ireland when called upon, is the only thing that smacks of bias around here.

I said I'd have a fit and in form Ryan ahead of POM. Not right now, but sure carry on ignoring whatever suits you.

POM is, imo, still some way behind all of the starting back row, and Henry.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wasn't aware that posters where putting Ryan ahead of Henry too. Thanks for the correction.

:rolleyes:

Interesting as always to note that you would use a weighting of importance due to the exact same statement being true of a player at Munster, yet would struggle massively to accept that the same is not only true, but more impressive for the Ulster player, given the difference in their group difficulties, their respective performances and their current aspirations in the Heineken Cup.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Kate Harsh Lightning wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I wasn't aware that posters where putting Ryan ahead of Henry too. Thanks for the correction.

:rolleyes:

Interesting as always to note that you would use a weighting of importance due to the exact same statement being true of a player at Munster, yet would struggle massively to accept that the same is not only true, but more impressive for the Ulster player, given the difference in their group difficulties, their respective performances and their current aspirations in the Heineken Cup.

What does this have to do with the original point? You are doing nothing but derailing the thread.

I have made no effort to rate POM as a better player than Henry. As it stands, POM was the form option going into the 6N and Henry has been the form player since.

That said, POM has excelled in a decimated Munster pack in every backrow position. He has more potential than Henry and has more recent experience in all the backrow positions. He is a better bench option.

If we are talking about the starting 7 jersey, Henry gets the nod. I'd give it to POM in the other two jerseys. This all depends on the dropping of one of the current trio though.

totallegend

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

How have I dismissed Ryan? He has played next to no serious rugby this year, so calling for his inclusion in the Irish setup is completely baseless and premature. He is a very promising player, but until he gets some first team rugby, he shouldn't be considered.

You said:

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

"You mean the same Dom Ryan who cannot get a look-in for Leinster"

, pretty dismissive IMO.

I was just pointing out that getting a look-in with the current Munster team (especially now that Wallace is gone, Leamy is hobbled and Ryan is a second row) is light-years away from getting a look-in with Leinster.

I didn't say he should be picked for Ireland, FYI.

danthefan

Ryan has spent a good part of this season injured. He's clearly not ahead of Henry or POM currently but imo has a big future.

Foxtrol

phog wrote: »

Also, I think you're trying to measure POM in a Munster backrow that is decimated with injury to two in form and fit backrows of Ulster and Leinster.

Do you think it was fair then for posters to use the Magners final performances of Murray and Reddan (the latter in a team decimated with a literal and figurative H Cup hangover and the former in a team who had two weeks preparation) as measuring stick to compare the two players in the run up to the World Cup?

irishbucsfan

Henry was in better form before the 6N and has been ever since. Especially at 7.

Id love to know what exactly Heaslip isn't doing as a specialist 8. His control of the ball is excellent, his defense off the back is probably the best in the world, his carrying off the back is technically top class and ball retention from his carrying there is pretty much 100%, which is what you need from an 8 off the scrum. What exactly more do you want? Do you want him to drive the rest of the pack single-handedly!?

phog

danthefan wrote: »

SOB was never dropped.

I thought he was called ashore in one of the 6Ns games and looked very disappointed at being called ashore, if I'm wrong apologise but my point still remainds trying to compare one back rower to another without looking at the unit is unjust.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do you think it was fair then for posters to use the Magners final performances of Murray and Reddan (the latter in a team decimated with a literal and figurative H Cup hangover and the former in a team who had two weeks preparation) as measuring stick to compare the two players in the run up to the World Cup?

When has POM played in a back row for Munster that could equal Leinster's or Ulster's, our backrow has been decimated with injury since the start of the season, not just one game. Has Leamy or Wallace started/played in a game this season? I doubt it.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

danthefan wrote: »

SOB was never dropped.

I thought he was called ashore in one of the 6Ns games and looked very disappointed at being called ashore, if I'm wrong apologise but my point still remainds trying to compare one back rower to another without looking at the unit is unjust.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Do you think it was fair then for posters to use the Magners final performances of Murray and Reddan (the latter in a team decimated with a literal and figurative H Cup hangover and the former in a team who had two weeks preparation) as measuring stick to compare the two players in the run up to the World Cup?

When has POM played in a back row for Munster that could equal Leinster's or Ulster's, our backrow has been decimated with injury since the start of the season, not just one game. Has Leamy or Wallace started/played in a game this season? I doubt it.

Does being subbed off = being dropped? Conor Murray was dropped every week so?

As for the second point, maybe if POM was playing in a stronger back row his performances wouldn't be as noticeable. He still has flaws in his game, as much as I rate him. He is extremely impressive and I'd have him in the Irish squad behind the starting 3 and Henry at the moment.

JustinDee

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Should Coughlan have went to the WC ahead of Heaslip as he outplayed him every time they met last season?

In your opinion, Coughlan outplayed Heaslip.
The reality of it is that Heaslip is an experienced backrower, lineout operator and 8th man, with the added bonus facet of being the best fetcher out of the four provinces and in the international team bar none.