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Margaret Thatcher was she really that bad?

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    #302
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...which rather ignores the fact that Adams had favoured a political solution as far back as the early 70's, as is well known within Republican circles.

    How does it ignore it? any political solution Adams favoured back then did not in any way resemble the good friday agreement. As he stated in older editions of his books
    "No Irish nationalist could support any treaty which institutionalizes British government claims to a part of Irish national territory. Indeed, the term - 'constitutional nationalism'- used by Mr.Mallon (SDLP) and his colleagues to describe their political philosophy is a contradiction in terms. The only constitutional nationalist in Ireland today is Sean McBride. He puts his nationalism within a framework of Irish constitutionality. Mr. Mallon, however, puts his within the framework of British constitutionality. Irish nationalism within British constitutionality is a contradiction in terms."

    - Gerry Adams, 1986
    ("The Politics of Irish Freedom", Gerry Adams, Brandon Book Publishers, Ltd., Dingle, County Kerry, Ireland 1986, page 112, lines 26-35. NOTE: REMOVED FROM 1995 and1996 EDITIONS)

    also i 1984 ""There can be no such things as an Irish nationalist accepting the loyalist veto and partition. You cannot claim to be an Irish nationalist if you consent to an internal six county settlement and if you are willing to negotiate the state of Irish society with a foreign government."


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    #303
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    How does it ignore it? any political solution Adams favoured back then did not in any way resemble the good friday agreement. As he stated in older editions of his books

    .....was he in favour of a political solution, yes he was. Did his concept of what was acceptable change over time? Evidently it did. Or perhaps he let be known what was palatable at the time.

    Are you criticising Adams for not adopting an 'all or nothing' position?


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    #304
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    Nodin wrote: »
    .....was he in favour of a political solution, yes he was. Did his concept of what was acceptable change over time? Evidently it did. Or perhaps he let be known what was palatable at the time.

    but obviously they couldn't bring that kind politics into the political mainstream is the point.

    Back then he wouldn't have been able to influence the IRA. However after the H-Block election results republicans in general were more accepting of politics over militancy. They ran in the next Irish general election after Adams became president in 1983
    Are you criticising Adams for not adopting an 'all or nothing' position?

    I'm not criticising him for that no. But i would criticise him for being an unrepentant hypocrite of the highest order for not admitting the SDLP were right and he was wrong.


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    #305
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    but obviously they couldn't bring that kind politics into the political mainstream is the point. .


    .....but they did. It just wasn't possible to force an agreement on those terms.
    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    I'm not criticising him for that no. But i would criticise him for being an unrepentant hypocrite of the highest order for not admitting the SDLP were right and he was wrong.

    Humes bleating shite for 30 years changed sweet fuck all, except divide the nationalist community. There was virtually no move on sectarianism, reform of the police, the UDR, parades, jobs, the UDA - nada. The fact of the matter is that whether anyone likes it or not it took armed action to get any traction - which is far more a condemnation of those in power than those who took up arms.


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    #306
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    One of the reasons I never really warmed to communists (when they used be around) was that whenever you pointed out some completly unnessecary suffering caused by a policy, they would answer with some bit of semi-flowery rhetoric or other. It's a 'tactic' that doesn't improve when used by the right.

    The welfare of the people....that's supposed to be important.

    Yes. The welfare of the people would be much better if the state was separated entirely from the economy. Austrian economics is foolproof.


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    #307
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Biggins wrote: »
    Good riddance to the bitch and when she is gone, I'll crack open a bottle of champaign I have in my fridge!

    Pretty horrible thing to say about someone who's suffering from dementia.


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    #308
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    Yes. The welfare of the people would be much better if the state was separated entirely from the economy. Austrian economics is foolproof.

    ...and yet more of the same. Lovely. That'll fix an unemployment/heroin 'black spot' allright.
    Pedant wrote: »
    Pretty horrible thing to say about someone who's suffering from dementia..

    Compared to the sentiments of many who suffered via her policies, it's mild.

    As the damage is done and she is no longer active in politics, her fate is at this stage irrelevant. As death claims us all, its hardly a "win" when it eventually comes for her.


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    #309
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Pedant wrote: »
    Pretty horrible thing to say about someone who's suffering from dementia.
    She is a pretty horrible person.


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    #310
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...and yet more of the same. Lovely. That'll fix an unemployment/heroin 'black spot' allright.

    It's simple really. It's impossible for businesses to grow in Ireland because they're choked by taxes and rates. This in turn prevents the business (be they small or large) from creating more jobs as the business will not be able to expand, this is particularly the case for small businesses. The only businesses that seem to make it through the net are those who are powerful/rich enough to lobby politicians and convince them to introduce tax breaks/incentives for their particular business or industry. Socialism or state capitalism will not reduce the number of people unemployed and increase the amount of people employed in the private sector.

    Large scale state intervention in the economy creates inequality in the market. This is a point argued over and over again by leading economists such as Hayek and Von Mises and they have been proved right over and over again. Hayek argued that such intervention only accentuates the natural business cycle leading to booms and busts of greater magnitude (an argument that fits well when looking at the recent economic crisis). State intervention also leads to monopolies - the vast majority of monopolies throughout history have been coercive monopolies; those sponsored by states via tax incentives, special regulations, subsidies, franchises, etc.. (a point argued by Ayn Rand).


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    #311
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Pedant wrote: »
    Pretty horrible thing to say about someone who's suffering from dementia.

    Stuff her. She drove others mental, some in probably to sadly killing themselves also I suspect!
    A few of her victims were good friends of mine in Lancs, England at the time of her seat in power!


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    #312
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Biggins wrote: »
    Stuff her. She drove others mental, in probably some to sadly killing themselves also I suspect!

    It was all Old Labour's fault, not Thatchers. Old Labour are the party that planted the seeds, Old Labour are the ones who brought the UK to the IMF.


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    #313
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    It's simple (........) by Ayn Rand).

    None of that guff really has any bearing on the hardship caused by Thatcher though, because it happened, and is still on-going in parts. You soapbox away with your libertarian/right wing waffle though. Somebody somewhere may actually give a crap.


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    #314
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Pedant wrote: »
    It was all Old Labour's fault, not Thatchers. Old Labour are the party that planted the seeds, Old Labour are the ones who brought the UK to the IMF.

    O' for gods sake, get those rose tinted glasses cleaned.
    Yes, they held a gun to her mental head and made her do all the schite she did!
    What utter stupidity in using that poor miserable excuse!


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    #315
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    None of that guff really has any bearing on the hardship caused by Thatcher though, because it happened, and is still on-going in parts. You soapbox away with your libertarian/right wing waffle though. Somebody somewhere may actually give a crap.

    Typical commie response, doesn't address the facts only mindless emotion. Libertarians predicted the last economic crisis.


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    #316
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Biggins wrote: »
    O' for gods sake, get those rose tinted glasses cleaned.
    Yes, they held a gun to her mental head and made her do all the schite she did!
    What utter stupidity in using that poor miserable excuse!

    Old Labour blew the place up and Thatcher spent the most part of the 1980s trying to clean up their mess.


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    #317
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    Typical commie response, .....

    Really? And this accusation is based on what, exactly?
    Pedant wrote: »
    doesn't address the facts only mindless emotion.....

    So theres no such thing as economic hardship, deprivation and associated suffering?


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    #318
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Pedant wrote: »
    Old Labour blew the place up and Thatcher spent the most part of the 1980s trying to clean up their mess.

    ...And in also trying to clean up a mess as she perceived it, she instead made things worse!
    To use an analogy, instead of just using a nut cracker to crack a nut, she used a wrecking ball - repeatedly!


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    #319
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Biggins wrote: »
    O' for gods sake, get those rose tinted glasses cleaned.
    Yes, they held a gun to her mental head and made her do all the schite she did!
    What utter stupidity in using that poor miserable excuse!

    No, it was the unions, running riot under a useless labour government that were holding a gun to the nation's head


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    #320
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    So theres no such thing as economic hardship, deprivation and associated suffering?

    Yes, the economic hardship and deprivation caused by Old Labour.


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    #321
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No, it was the unions, running riot under a useless labour government that were holding a gun to the nation's head


    ...which, even if true, is hardly an excuse for what Thatcher did.


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    #322
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No, it was the unions, running riot under a useless labour government that were holding a gun to the nation's head
    Biggins wrote: »
    ...And in also trying to clean up a mess as she perceived it, she instead made things worse!
    To use an analogy, instead of just using a nut cracker to crack a nut, she used a wrecking ball - repeatedly!

    Same reply.


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    #323
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Pedant wrote: »
    Yes, the economic hardship and deprivation caused by Old Labour.

    Yet again I'm devastated by your grasp of the macro-economics of the era and their social ramifications.

    Do please explain to me how "old labour" was responsible for creating the economic "black spots" that followed the closure of the mines in wales.


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    #324
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    thatcher saved the uk from the destructive unions......but she did it too fast.......

    what she did most was....give the people of the uk faith in the future.....yes it was going rapidly down the drain......

    with regard to people who suffered......;yes there were many, and many who gained a lot.....just like ireland at the present time.....


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    #325
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote:
    And the alternatives to Mrs Thatch were .....
    golden lane wrote: »
    thatcher saved the uk from the destructive unions......but she did it too fast.......

    what she did most was....give the people of the uk faith in the future.....

    And now we've a southern unionist and a comedian in the mix. Deadly.


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    #326
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    LordSutch wrote: »
    And the alternatives to Mrs Thatch were . . .
    .....

    Michael Foot and the Sun?


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    #327
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Nodin wrote: »
    And now we've a comedian in the mix. Deadly.

    so you know everything......have you had the oppertunity to spend the money that was made in the eighties.......by millions..........or are you just jealous....


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    #328
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    And the alternatives to Mrs Thatch were . . .
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/James_Callaghan.JPG/220px-James_Callaghan.JPG
    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNbU8KRX0s2Q3bzuV4KfPKGE7BVX1boFJcRzeVTFP3kFr9vMf6
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Sunkinnock.jpg

    Anyone else remember the winter of discontent in 79?
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/30/article-1270193-0051205600000258-428_468x297.jpg


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    #329
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    golden lane wrote: »
    thatcher saved the uk from the destructive unions......but she did it too fast.......

    what she did most was....give the people of the uk faith in the future...

    :pac:

    I take it your trying to be funny?

    To repeat part of a previous post I made:
    * Rather than stimulating the economy through investment and tax cuts, she tried to control the amount of money in circulation. Mrs Thatcher thought this would reduce inflation from its 1979 level of 10.3%. It didn't. Inflation doubled within a year and only fell to present day levels of 2-3% in 1986.

    By this point, the damage had been done. To get to such a low level, indirect taxes had been hiked (VAT rose from 8% to 15%), as had interest rates (topping 17%). Subsidies for industry were reduced. The result was a massive rise in unemployment from 1.4m in 1979 to 3.5m by 1982, or one in eight people out of work.

    * Long-term unemployment blighted an entire generation in Northern Ireland (where 20% of people were left out of work), Scotland and the NE and NW of England (16%).

    * ...She also left it in recession, with unemployment, inflation and interest rates rising.
    Above all, not only was she bad for the country during her premiership, she continues to be bad for the country today. The causes of the present slump - unrestricted credit, deregulation and too much financial speculation - all date back to the 1980s. No successive government dared reverse these decisions: a blessing to her legacy, but a curse we must now all share.
    Source: http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.a...ntid=150369015

    * Poll Tax

    * Miner's Strike

    * Abolished free school meals for all children that many she put on the breadline!

    * Abolished free school milk for Englands kids that many she put on the breadline!

    * Stirred up more trouble between England and Ireland.

    * 2 recessions in her tenure

    * In breaking the unions - she left the working class with no voice in their workplace, stuck and either accept their lot or lose their job!

    * 4 million unemployed

    * 15% inflation

    * Record house repossessions

    * Record business closures

    * Record bankruptcies

    * She destroyed whole communities forever in her crusade against socialism and gave away £billions to the City and Corporations in another insane system, the trickle down! She frankly did more damage to British industry than the Luftwaffe did in the second world war its often joked about with sad consequences!
    Any prosperity Thatcher brought was selective, antagonistic to all and temporary. She did leave her favoured parts of Britain “better” as she saw it, but only for some!

    Gave them faith? I lived in England at the time and travelling around the country with work only found that she only have them bills - despair and further reason continuously for more hatred of her!


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    #330
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    LordSutch wrote: »
    And the alternatives to Mrs Thatch were . . .
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/James_Callaghan.JPG/220px-James_Callaghan.JPG
    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNbU8KRX0s2Q3bzuV4KfPKGE7BVX1boFJcRzeVTFP3kFr9vMf6
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Sunkinnock.jpg

    Anyone else remember the winter of discontent in 79?
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/30/article-1270193-0051205600000258-428_468x297.jpg[/QUOTE]

    30 million people, i should think......


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    #331
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yet again I'm devastated by your grasp of the macro-economics of the era and their social ramifications.

    Do please explain to me how "old labour" was responsible for creating the economic "black spots" that followed the closure of the mines in wales.

    The closure of the mines was absolutely justified. Why should the government rap up debt by keeping those totally economically nonviable pits. Keeping them open would have only worsened the national debt in the long term. The "social ramifications" are something that should have been considered when investing in these industries in the first place. They had to be closed at some point or another.


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