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Secret Diary of a Dublin Call Girl

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Comments

  • #242
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    I agree with the first portion, not the second. There's a distinct whiff of blame and reducing of viewpoints in that. Some women HAVE been damaged by prostitution and it would be churlish to say they hadn't. That doesn't make them "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive".

    It's tricky country Millicent...I agree with you *AND* I agree with creditable...

    I was horrendously damage by prostitution, but in a kind of..."ok, here is the thing, if we don't amputate your leg immediately you will still be there when the petrol tank blows" kinda way...

    For me, like a lot of people, it was, significantly, the lesser of two evils...

    But even if it wasn't the lesser of two evils for me at all (as DCG claims of herself) that does not give me the right to demand everybody else be prevented from selling sex because I made a bad, unhealthy choice and it damaged me...


  • #243
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    creditable wrote: »
    This is one of the most incorrect and deluded statement I've ever seen made. It's baffling. One of the main factors which determines to which extent a culture is a matriarchy is the promiscuity of women. You can see this very clearly in cultures across earth. Patriarchal societies = non-promiscuous women. Matriarchal societies = promiscuous women. It's the promiscuity of women in this matriarchal society (Ireland) which has caused the massive demand for prostitution we have in this country. If our men grew up in a patriarchal, conservative country, they would not feel such a strong need to 'get their bit' and visit prostitutes to the huge extent that they do.

    That's a very simple and fallacious view of patriarchy, to be honest. Prostitution in Ireland only came strongly into being AFTER women were disenfranchised through a patriarchal system, whereby they could not hold wealth or inherit land.


  • #244
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Eileen_Lang wrote: »
    It's tricky country Millicent...I agree with you *AND* I agree with creditable...

    I was horrendously damage by prostitution, but in a kind of..."ok, here is the thing, if we don't amputate your leg immediately you will still be there when the petrol tank blows" kinda way...

    For me, like a lot of people, it was, significantly, the lesser of two evils...

    But even if it wasn't the lesser of two evils for me at all (as DCG claims of herself) that does not give me the right to demand everybody else be prevented from selling sex because I made a bad, unhealthy choice and it damaged me...

    The fact is though there are people who have been "damaged" (not my description; I'm using that poster's) by sexual abuse who are more prone to self-objectification and lesser value of their own bodies. They are a world away from a woman who has not been abused and who doesn't place a high worth on sexual activity for their own reasons.

    The women who may be "damaged" (again not my description) may be perpetuating life lessons taught to them by trauma in their past. Those women do not deserve to be labelled as "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive" by a poster who seems unwilling to acknowledge those shades of grey we were talking about.


  • #245
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Kooli wrote: »
    The difference is that prostitution is a product of the patriarchy, whereas abortion is not (in fact, you could argue quite easily that the partiarchy would be pro-life).

    If we did not live in a patriarchy where men were dominant and culture encouraged men to feel entitlement and ownership over women's bodies as well as normalising the objectification, dehumanisation and villification of women, while encouraging women to be submissive and sexually available, I don't think prostitution would exist.

    A lot of men pay for sex precisely because they do *NOT* feel they have a a sense of entitlement over women's bodies, or any right to expect sexual gratification unless they offer compensation


  • #246
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I have to get to work, boss isn't going to be too happy with the head on me today :( I really haven't read into the nordic model yet, other than what's been spouted throughout this thread (which wasn't impressive) but I'm going to have a sit down with it later and educate myself. Thanks

    Forgive me, but I wasn't 'spouting,' I am a survivor sharing information. What I like about the nordic model is that it targets pimps.

    If we make pimping legal, we are empowering the pimps/traffickers to abuse women in prostitution.

    Such as the woman you were so disgusted with in that TV program


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  • #247
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Babybuff wrote: »
    this is what I meant by what was previously spouted wrt the nordic model btw.. :o

    So sorry Baby Buff, I didn't see this message before my previous post. Hope you have a great afternoon and evening. XO


  • #248
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    Millicent wrote: »
    Do you not thinking legalising prostitution would help to care for the women within it?

    I mustn't have communicated well. The jury is out for me on the issue. I am waiting to hear from all sides what would be the very best protection for prostitutes. Whatever that is, I will vote for it. If legalising it is the best thing then I will vote for it, definitely.

    But I would never vote for it so that a woman's choice to be a prostitute could be protected. I would vote for it so that women who ended up in prostitution could be safe and protected (as far as is possible in such a depressing industry).


  • #249
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    The fact is though there are people who have been "damaged" (not by description; I'm using that poster's) by sexual abuse who are more prone to self-objectification and lesser value of their own bodies. They are a world away from a woman who has not been abused and who doesn't place a high worth on sexual activity for their own reasons.

    There is another perspective on that though (actually, given the diversity of human nature there are probably a fair few:)). As someone who had been damaged young by various kinds of abuse I found that prostitution had the side effect of teaching me to *VALUE* my body and my sexuality in a way I doubt if I would ever have been able to do otherwise.
    Millicent wrote: »
    The women who may be "damaged" (again not my description) may be perpetuating life lessons taught to them by trauma in their past. Those women do not deserve to be labelled as "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive" by a poster who seems unwilling to acknowledge those shades of grey we were talking about.

    There is not much I can say here because I have a totally different take on those same people to either of you.


  • #250
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Millicent I honestly think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here.

    This is not a thread about who is in favour of prostitution and who is against it. By "in favour" I presume you mean in favour of it being legalised?

    This thread is about the realities of prostitution versus the fantasies. Eileen is the one who has come in and effectively said "Stop talking about it being bad for women: the only thing we should be concerned about is allowing women to make their own choices about being prostitutes."

    Sorry, but that's just not the full story. I understand you wish to engage Eileen, but I did my level best and unless you agree with 100% of what she says, and also agree to slate the viewpoints of ex-prostitutes who don't agree with her, then she simply will not engage fairly or with any measure of precision. She has slandered every other ex-prostitute mentioned in this thread and said a hell of a lot of spurious things about knowing who DCG is etc.

    For me, who abhors the idea of prostitution, it isn't even about stamping out prostitution. It is about caring for the women who get wrapped up in it. If legalising it were actually the best thing for the women involved, I would be all for it.

    I completely agree with you neuro.

    The most important thing to me also is caring for the women who get wrapped up in prostitution.

    It's so hard as survivors to speak out about what happens to us in prostitution because we are slandered, accused of all kinds of things (on another website Eileen accused me of promoting manslaughter because I am against legalized pimping.)

    All the survivors I know, myself included, speak out because of our deep concern for the women in prostitution. I believe if people really understood what it was, there would be deep social change. These legalize/don't legalize arguments distract from the suffering of the women in prostitution -- and we become invisible beneath such arguments.

    I really appreciate your pointing that out.


  • #251
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    I mustn't have communicated well. The jury is out for me on the issue. I am waiting to hear from all sides what would be the very best protection for prostitutes. Whatever that is, I will vote for it. If legalising it is the best thing then I will vote for it, definitely.

    But I would never vote for it so that a woman's choice to be a prostitute could be protected. I would vote for it so that women who ended up in prostitution could be safe and protected (as far as is possible in such a depressing industry).

    Gotcha. Sorry for misreading you. :)

    As I've said, I do think prostitution is a direct result of the inability to see women as sexual beings, thus creating a designation of "wife" vs "whore". I want to see that changed but until then, I'm in favour of legalising it to protect those involved. I am also in favour of increasing opportunities to women so that they don't see themselves as purely sexual beings and use the best of their attributes and traits, whatever those may be.

    I still do think there are women who would choose it and I'm not standing in judgement of those women either. As I said, I had a friend who chose it who did better monetarily from it than she would a retail job. She was happy enough to do it as she doesn't see sex as a big deal and I wouldn't deny that that choice worked for her at that time and in her circumstances.


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  • #252
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Eileen_Lang wrote: »
    There is another perspective on that though (actually, given the diversity of human nature there are probably a fair few:)). As someone who had been damaged young by various kinds of abuse I found that prostitution had the side effect of teaching me to *VALUE* my body and my sexuality in a way I doubt if I would ever have been able to do otherwise.

    That's interesting. Do you think maybe that's as a result of coming to dislike prostitution and the punters' view of you?

    Eileen_Lang wrote: »
    There is not much I can say here because I have a totally different take on those same people to either of you.

    How so?


  • #253
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    I am also in favour of increasing opportunities to women so that they don't see themselves as purely sexual beings

    Do women still do that? I wouldn't have thought so myself...not for a couple of decades.


  • #254
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Stella Marr wrote: »
    All the survivors I know, myself included, speak out because of our deep concern for the women in prostitution. I believe if people really understood what it was, there would be deep social change. These legalize/don't legalize arguments distract from the suffering of the women in prostitution -- and we become invisible beneath such arguments.

    That's an important point and I am sorry if it has appeared in any way that I am seeking to minimise that suffering. That sincerely would never be my intention.

    I don't think those involved in either side of the debate should ignore what is happening to prostitutes now. My interest in the legalise/don't legalise debate is how best sex workers might be protected against abuse or violence.


  • #255
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    But I would never vote for it so that a woman's choice to be a prostitute could be protected. I would vote for it so that women who ended up in prostitution could be safe and protected (as far as is possible in such a depressing industry).

    And I think the best way to know what would be best for the women in prostitution is to listen to survivors of prostitution.

    There are actually some women out there claiming to have been/or be 'sex workers' who 'love their work' who are pimping other women. You usually can find evidence if you do some research -- they'll mention it somewhere, because they want to recruit girls and they want to use their 'activism' to get customers.

    Since these women have a vested interest in protecting their ability to profit off of commercial sexual exploitation -- what they say about the sex industry should be discounted.

    Any woman who has been prostituted will need counseling and healthcare, as well as a safe place to live after she is prostituted -- because recovery from the experience is very difficult.

    Angel K, an eloquent survivor, is writing beautiful about how hard it is to recover. You can read about that here:

    http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/terrible-beauty-angel-k-on-prostitution-the-inadequacy-of-language/


  • #256
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Stella Marr wrote: »
    All the survivors I know, myself included, speak out because of our deep concern for the women in prostitution. I believe if people really understood what it was, there would be deep social change. These legalize/don't legalize arguments distract from the suffering of the women in prostitution -- and we become invisible beneath such arguments.
    The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

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  • #257
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    That's interesting. Do you think maybe that's as a result of coming to dislike prostitution and the punters' view of you?

    Actually, far from it...almost the opposite if anything (I disliked even the *IDEA* of prostitution, sometimes at close range, for about 10 years before I ever had to do it...there reallly was nowhere to go with "further dislike"). I was the classic young woman who seeks affirmation of low self esteem in sh*gging anyone who asks...and wakes up next day feeling utterly degraded and humiliated by that...

    In very, clear, practical terms I started to realise, whenever a guy would try to pick me up socially that I could get myself made use of to fill exactly the same sexual need by someone nicer and far more respectful AND get paid for it...

    ...and my next thought was to realise I deserved better that letting myself be used like that for free.
    Millicent wrote: »
    How so?

    Not being coy, but I think I went into that *WAY* too much earlier in the thread and it's probably best not revisited, except to say that of course I do not believe you have to be hypersensitive or unstable to be damaged by prostitution...but that those who chose to sell sex and found they were damaged by it probably take responsibility for that choice, rather than projecting it onto others, as a vital part of their recovery.


  • #258
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Eileen_Lang wrote: »
    Do women still do that? I wouldn't have thought so myself...not for a couple of decades.

    Absolutely. I still know girls who view themselves in term of looks, beauty and attractiveness to the opposite sex. It's still there, sadly, even in young girls.


  • #259
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    28064212 wrote: »
    The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

    Can I thank this post twice? :)


  • #260
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    Absolutely. I still know girls who view themselves in term of looks, beauty and attractiveness to the opposite sex. It's still there, sadly, even in young girls.

    That genuinely surprises me...I really thought young women dressed and blinged up to be pleasing in their own eyes these days...

    Perhaps I just got old and out of touch?:(


  • #261
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    28064212 wrote: »
    The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.

    Organized crime is deeply involved in prostitution in places where there's legal pimping, such as Amsterdam and Germany, who have some of the highest trafficking rates in the world. In New York City where I was prostituted it was technically illegal, but punters/Johns were rarely arrested, and escort services operated with nearly complete impunity. My pimps worked with corrupt police officers, who were also involved in threatening my life and making me feel I couldn't report the violence and coercion to the police. They told me that if I went to the cops, the cops would just bring me back to my pimps.


    Regarding prohibition -- prohibition refers to consumable substances like drugs and alcohol. I am not a consumable substance. I am a human being. What's more, no one is prohibiting sex. So the argument makes no sense.

    Using the idea of prohibition in connection with prostitution dehumanizes the women involved.


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  • #262
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Stella Marr wrote: »
    Organized crime is deeply involved in prostitution in places where there's legal pimping, such as Amsterdam and Germany, who have some of the highest trafficking rates in the world. In New York City where I was prostituted it was technically illegal, but punters/Johns were rarely arrested, and escort services operated with nearly complete impunity. My pimps worked with corrupt police officers, who were also involved in threatening my life and making me feel I couldn't report the violence and coercion to the police. They told me that if I went to the cops, the cops would just bring me back to my pimps.
    Why do you use a place where it's illegal as an example when that's exactly my point? Organised criminals get involved when there is a demand that lawful enterprises cannot supply.
    Stella Marr wrote: »
    Regarding prohibition -- prohibition refers to consumable substances like drugs and alcohol. I am not a consumable substance. I am a human being. What's more, no one is prohibiting sex. So the argument makes no sense.

    Using the idea of prohibition in connection with prostitution dehumanizes the women involved.
    Only if you choose to read it that way. Prohibited means forbidden by law, whether that's a product, a service or an act

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  • #263
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    credible site-banned as re-reg of poster previously site-banned for spouting much the same...

    Have deleted their posts and those referring to them as to give them air-time just encourages them to keep re-regging.


  • #264
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Just to re-iterate - this is a discussion forum aimed at the female postership of Boards.

    Any interesting addition to the discussion is welcome but could posters avoid using the forum just as a platform to soap-box issues and avoid cutting and pasting swathes from articles/blogs in lieu of interactive discussion with the community.

    Cheers.


  • #265
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    laneyc86 wrote: »
    I am aware that Ruhama and some Government agencies provide educational training and financial assistance for those who wish to leave prostitution. My question is do women get to choose the supports which they feel *they* would benefit from the most? Or are they told to "shut up and be grateful for what you get?"

    Well? Which is it?
    a woman can go from being pimped in a physical and sexual sense, to being pimped by those who are attracted to the fact that they can have control, power and influence over the lives of other people who will always be more disadvantaged, isolated and vulnerable.

    Who is doing this? Be specific. And what can we do about it?
    Many disability organisations are far more political than most people would like to believe, or wish to get themselves involved in. The same goes for organisations like Ruhama and others involved in "Turn off the Red Light". Amidst all the backslapping, "raising awareness", fancy lunches and high salaries some people's lives are still being devastated by those who claim to "support" them. And I believe that is wrong.

    Yeah, I believe it's wrong too. Who is doing this and how are lives being devastated by these organisations? Genuine question - I have no affiliations.
    Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests.

    Please give us some examples and if you have them, ways to combat this culture.
    To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality.
    The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.

    Agreed. How would we do this?


  • #266
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    laneyc86 wrote: »

    Awareness of any issue should ALWAYS be about PEOPLE – it should NEVER exclude or exploit those who are isolated, marginalised or vulnerable.
    REAL awareness should aim to treat those same isolated, marginalised and vulnerable people with the same dignity and respect as any other human being.
    Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests. To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality.
    The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.

    Snipped to the core conclusion but that is remarkable insight...the parallels truly never end.

    When you think about it there is little or no difference between perceived disability and perceived disadvantage in the political arena...both are regarded as fair game as far as I can see.

    ...and I would say that just as many autistic ladies as prostitutes were sent "do penance" in the laundries and just as many prostitutes as autistics were incarcerated in places like St Ita's for the duration of whatever...


  • #267
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    laneyc86 wrote:
    To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality.
    The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.
    Agreed. How would we do this?

    That looks self explanatory to me.


  • #268
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Well? Which is it?



    Who is doing this? Be specific. And what can we do about it?



    Yeah, I believe it's wrong too. Who is doing this and how are lives being devastated by these organisations? Genuine question - I have no affiliations.



    Please give us some examples and if you have them, ways to combat this culture.



    Agreed. How would we do this?

    I think neuropraxis's questions above are very important. Regarding prostitution, I don't think lives are being devastated by organizations like Ruhama.

    The devastation is being done by pimps and Johns. But there should be more prostittution survivors in leadership roles in any organization that has a mission to help women in prostitution. Right now on both sides of the Atlantic there seems to be a disconnect -- survivor activists are fighting a lonely battle outside of most of the institutions that are soliciting public donations to help women in prostitution. This doesn't make any sense, and can sometimes result in a secondary kind of exploitation (I can't speak for Ireland -- I'm talking about the USA).

    I've been very inspired by the disabled rights movement, especially by the poet Laura Hershey, as has Dublin Call Girl.


  • #269
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    laneyc86 wrote: »
    However, a lot of these adults have degrees and independent lives (which is totally unrepresentative of the majority) and all are used in purely tokenistic positions - they do not have a role in management or direction of the organisation. Quite simply, one is *expected* to be a "Self-narrating Zoo Exhibit" and only speak about aspects of their own personal lives, and not about the wider disability rights perspective.

    I can see similarities in Dublin Call Girl's writings. For example, someone who has not been driven into prostitution as a result of poverty, coercion, trafficking or drug addiction seems to think in terms of "those people":

    http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-subtle-infiltration-of-prostitution/


    .

    I found much of what Laney expressed about disabled rights to be true. But I think it's unfair to say that Dublin Call Girl thinks in terms of "those people." That's pretty slanderous, and it's surprising to see such a nasty klinker in a discussion of disabled rights.

    Dublin Call Girl is not thinking in terms of 'those people' when she states that things are 50 times worse for people less privileged than she is. She's acknowledging her privilege and acknowledging the truth -- things are much worse for a lot of women in prostitution than they were for her. That's why she was able to get out of the life and be the brilliant writer she is today.

    Although there are some parallels between how people with autism and prostitution survivors are treated by helping organizations, having autism and being a survivor of prostitution are very different. Why? Because prostitution itself is causing devastating damage on the women within it. Lasting damage. Without the horrific effects of prostittuion, there'd be no need for organizations to help women within it. These damaging effects can't be remediated via government regulation of a system that creates and dehumanizes the prostituted class.

    In other words the punters/Johns and the pimps, male and female, are the perpetrators.

    In contrast, in the past organizations that are supposed to help the disabled can act as perpetrators -- by misappropriating funds that are supposed to go to the disabled, by institutionalizing people unfairly, and by not using their funds to educate the public and contribute to social change. Predictably, the social change regarding public perception of asperger's and autism has come from autistic people or aspies speaking out despite the great risk. There's still a long way to go, but Temple Grandin, Michael John Carley and many others have made an impact.

    Prostitution has the added complication of possible physical harm coming to the women if they speak out, via angry pimps and traffickers, or deranged punters. So organizations that help women in prostitution must be careful not to exploit the women via media exposure or use them for fund raising. Rather, these organizaitons should be elevating survivors to leadership roles.


  • #270
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    I do think the disabled rights movement has to struggle with false public perceptions of the disabled -- which compounds the problems disabled people experience. Some people love to blame the victim. It doesn't make sense to blame someone for a disability but people will do it anyway, rather than seeing the disabled as people like themselves.

    Women in and survivors of prostitution struggle with victim-blaming too.

    There's a certain hatred many types express toward anyone they perceive as "weak," a word they define as meaning easy to attack and not like them. These types are usually bullies -- and they scare off potential supporters of disabled rights or human rights fo the prostituted because these potential supporters are afraid they'll be attacked too. This enforces the social marginalization of both the disabled and survivors of and women in prostitution..

    Actually survivors of prostitution and the disabled are usually quite emotionally strong. Because they have to be. It's those that marginalize them who are weak.


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  • #271
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Laney wrote, and I quote:

    One question I will ask, is that if Johns are now too frightened to pay for sex due to the possibility of a criminal conviction, what will happen to the women trafficked or coerced into prostitution?


    OK Laney, so this isn't really about disabled rights after all. You've just been piggy-backing on the issue in an attempt to turn this conversation into a discussion of legalization instead of a discussion on the experiences of the women in prostitution.

    The blog Feminist Ire is written by a woman who has never been prostituted named Wendy Lyon, and she works with Turn Off the Blue Light and posts on the blog of an admitted madam.

    The report she links to in her blog was written about Sweden, but according to the Swedes who work with the prostituted on a daily basis, no one from the UN ever spoke to them. Instead they spoke to a male professor at the University of Chicago. THe information in the report is not true, which is not a surprise, since this male professor didn't even bother to talk to anyone in Sweden.

    Most young women have trouble going to the super market without being propositioned. If a woman wants to self-sell her body, she'll always be able to find customers. I doubt very much that women in prostitution are concerned about the reduced demand.

    In contrast, pimps are very upset about it. Because as long as it's legal to buy women, the demand will keep increasing. And these pimps can traffick women in from the former Soviet Union or Korea or Africa. And they can profit off of vulnerable young Irish girls who've been brutally sexually abused.

    Pimps will always coerce and control as many young women as they can, as long as there's demand.

    But most of the wealthy men who use prostitutes care about their public reputation. So some of them will stop buying women. And less girls like Dublin Call Girl or young Latvian or Korean women will be sold in Ireland. The law would hurt the pimps, not the women in prostitution. As a survivor of ten years of prostitution I feel qualified in making this assessment.

    Laney, can you give me a link to that financial data about Ruhama?


This discussion has been closed.
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