Millicent wrote: » I agree with the first portion, not the second. There's a distinct whiff of blame and reducing of viewpoints in that. Some women HAVE been damaged by prostitution and it would be churlish to say they hadn't. That doesn't make them "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive".
creditable wrote: » This is one of the most incorrect and deluded statement I've ever seen made. It's baffling. One of the main factors which determines to which extent a culture is a matriarchy is the promiscuity of women. You can see this very clearly in cultures across earth. Patriarchal societies = non-promiscuous women. Matriarchal societies = promiscuous women. It's the promiscuity of women in this matriarchal society (Ireland) which has caused the massive demand for prostitution we have in this country. If our men grew up in a patriarchal, conservative country, they would not feel such a strong need to 'get their bit' and visit prostitutes to the huge extent that they do.
Eileen_Lang wrote: » It's tricky country Millicent...I agree with you *AND* I agree with creditable... I was horrendously damage by prostitution, but in a kind of..."ok, here is the thing, if we don't amputate your leg immediately you will still be there when the petrol tank blows" kinda way... For me, like a lot of people, it was, significantly, the lesser of two evils... But even if it wasn't the lesser of two evils for me at all (as DCG claims of herself) that does not give me the right to demand everybody else be prevented from selling sex because I made a bad, unhealthy choice and it damaged me...
Kooli wrote: » The difference is that prostitution is a product of the patriarchy, whereas abortion is not (in fact, you could argue quite easily that the partiarchy would be pro-life). If we did not live in a patriarchy where men were dominant and culture encouraged men to feel entitlement and ownership over women's bodies as well as normalising the objectification, dehumanisation and villification of women, while encouraging women to be submissive and sexually available, I don't think prostitution would exist.
Babybuff wrote: » I have to get to work, boss isn't going to be too happy with the head on me today I really haven't read into the nordic model yet, other than what's been spouted throughout this thread (which wasn't impressive) but I'm going to have a sit down with it later and educate myself. Thanks
Babybuff wrote: » this is what I meant by what was previously spouted wrt the nordic model btw..
Millicent wrote: » Do you not thinking legalising prostitution would help to care for the women within it?
Millicent wrote: » The fact is though there are people who have been "damaged" (not by description; I'm using that poster's) by sexual abuse who are more prone to self-objectification and lesser value of their own bodies. They are a world away from a woman who has not been abused and who doesn't place a high worth on sexual activity for their own reasons.
Millicent wrote: » The women who may be "damaged" (again not my description) may be perpetuating life lessons taught to them by trauma in their past. Those women do not deserve to be labelled as "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive" by a poster who seems unwilling to acknowledge those shades of grey we were talking about.
neuro-praxis wrote: » Millicent I honestly think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here. This is not a thread about who is in favour of prostitution and who is against it. By "in favour" I presume you mean in favour of it being legalised? This thread is about the realities of prostitution versus the fantasies. Eileen is the one who has come in and effectively said "Stop talking about it being bad for women: the only thing we should be concerned about is allowing women to make their own choices about being prostitutes." Sorry, but that's just not the full story. I understand you wish to engage Eileen, but I did my level best and unless you agree with 100% of what she says, and also agree to slate the viewpoints of ex-prostitutes who don't agree with her, then she simply will not engage fairly or with any measure of precision. She has slandered every other ex-prostitute mentioned in this thread and said a hell of a lot of spurious things about knowing who DCG is etc. For me, who abhors the idea of prostitution, it isn't even about stamping out prostitution. It is about caring for the women who get wrapped up in it. If legalising it were actually the best thing for the women involved, I would be all for it.
neuro-praxis wrote: » I mustn't have communicated well. The jury is out for me on the issue. I am waiting to hear from all sides what would be the very best protection for prostitutes. Whatever that is, I will vote for it. If legalising it is the best thing then I will vote for it, definitely. But I would never vote for it so that a woman's choice to be a prostitute could be protected. I would vote for it so that women who ended up in prostitution could be safe and protected (as far as is possible in such a depressing industry).
Eileen_Lang wrote: » There is another perspective on that though (actually, given the diversity of human nature there are probably a fair few:)). As someone who had been damaged young by various kinds of abuse I found that prostitution had the side effect of teaching me to *VALUE* my body and my sexuality in a way I doubt if I would ever have been able to do otherwise.
Eileen_Lang wrote: » There is not much I can say here because I have a totally different take on those same people to either of you.
Millicent wrote: » I am also in favour of increasing opportunities to women so that they don't see themselves as purely sexual beings
Stella Marr wrote: » All the survivors I know, myself included, speak out because of our deep concern for the women in prostitution. I believe if people really understood what it was, there would be deep social change. These legalize/don't legalize arguments distract from the suffering of the women in prostitution -- and we become invisible beneath such arguments.
neuro-praxis wrote: » But I would never vote for it so that a woman's choice to be a prostitute could be protected. I would vote for it so that women who ended up in prostitution could be safe and protected (as far as is possible in such a depressing industry).
Millicent wrote: » That's interesting. Do you think maybe that's as a result of coming to dislike prostitution and the punters' view of you?
Millicent wrote: » How so?
Eileen_Lang wrote: » Do women still do that? I wouldn't have thought so myself...not for a couple of decades.
28064212 wrote: » The invisibility is greatly contributed to by the attempts to smother prostitution by prohibition. It hides the actual realities of the industry, pushes prostitutes towards organised crime, and women who are caught up in it have nowhere to turn.
Millicent wrote: » Absolutely. I still know girls who view themselves in term of looks, beauty and attractiveness to the opposite sex. It's still there, sadly, even in young girls.
Stella Marr wrote: » Organized crime is deeply involved in prostitution in places where there's legal pimping, such as Amsterdam and Germany, who have some of the highest trafficking rates in the world. In New York City where I was prostituted it was technically illegal, but punters/Johns were rarely arrested, and escort services operated with nearly complete impunity. My pimps worked with corrupt police officers, who were also involved in threatening my life and making me feel I couldn't report the violence and coercion to the police. They told me that if I went to the cops, the cops would just bring me back to my pimps.
Stella Marr wrote: » Regarding prohibition -- prohibition refers to consumable substances like drugs and alcohol. I am not a consumable substance. I am a human being. What's more, no one is prohibiting sex. So the argument makes no sense. Using the idea of prohibition in connection with prostitution dehumanizes the women involved.
laneyc86 wrote: » I am aware that Ruhama and some Government agencies provide educational training and financial assistance for those who wish to leave prostitution. My question is do women get to choose the supports which they feel *they* would benefit from the most? Or are they told to "shut up and be grateful for what you get?"
a woman can go from being pimped in a physical and sexual sense, to being pimped by those who are attracted to the fact that they can have control, power and influence over the lives of other people who will always be more disadvantaged, isolated and vulnerable.
Many disability organisations are far more political than most people would like to believe, or wish to get themselves involved in. The same goes for organisations like Ruhama and others involved in "Turn off the Red Light". Amidst all the backslapping, "raising awareness", fancy lunches and high salaries some people's lives are still being devastated by those who claim to "support" them. And I believe that is wrong.
Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests.
To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality. The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.
laneyc86 wrote: » Awareness of any issue should ALWAYS be about PEOPLE – it should NEVER exclude or exploit those who are isolated, marginalised or vulnerable. REAL awareness should aim to treat those same isolated, marginalised and vulnerable people with the same dignity and respect as any other human being. Disadvantaged people are often rendered invisible by society and repeatedly ignored, silenced and even intimidated by those who claim to work for their best interests. To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality. The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.
neuro-praxis wrote: » laneyc86 wrote: To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality. The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us. Agreed. How would we do this?
laneyc86 wrote: To portray someone as “vulnerable” and “helpless” with NO voice of their own only develops a culture of pity and inequality. The only way we can break that cycle of pity and inequality, vulnerability and dependence is to express solidarity with each other, to acknowledge that given an entirely different set of circumstances – it could just as easily be any one of us.
neuro-praxis wrote: » Well? Which is it? Who is doing this? Be specific. And what can we do about it? Yeah, I believe it's wrong too. Who is doing this and how are lives being devastated by these organisations? Genuine question - I have no affiliations. Please give us some examples and if you have them, ways to combat this culture. Agreed. How would we do this?
laneyc86 wrote: » However, a lot of these adults have degrees and independent lives (which is totally unrepresentative of the majority) and all are used in purely tokenistic positions - they do not have a role in management or direction of the organisation. Quite simply, one is *expected* to be a "Self-narrating Zoo Exhibit" and only speak about aspects of their own personal lives, and not about the wider disability rights perspective. I can see similarities in Dublin Call Girl's writings. For example, someone who has not been driven into prostitution as a result of poverty, coercion, trafficking or drug addiction seems to think in terms of "those people":http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-subtle-infiltration-of-prostitution/ .
