Secret Diary of a Dublin Call Girl

Babybuff

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Just a little food for thought Babybuff...but I think you have to be incredibly careful with legislating for issues of disability and prostitution. I have got into a lot of arguments with a disabled rights activist I know over this.

In Holland they allocate a certain amount of social security for sexual services for the disabled. Now I appreciate, more than most, how vital sexual services *CAN* be for the disabled, but that is a very big *CAN*...

I think that to have actual legislation that says you are entitled to an allowance specifically for sexual services is a clear and demoralising message to young disabled people that society automatically deems them unable to attract or form a healthy sexual relationship...maybe that is going to be the sad truth for some of them but not for all.

I wasn't really suggesting legislating for people with disabilities, I wouldn't know a great deal about it tbh, it was more like trying to define where sexual services might be deemed appropriate. I'm not very informed otherwise (although I did work with people with disabilities and people with autism in particular over the years it was never something I had any personal discussion about or knowledge of) but I can appreciate the compassionate aspect of it.

Babybuff

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Actually, far from it...almost the opposite if anything (I disliked even the *IDEA* of prostitution, sometimes at close range, for about 10 years before I ever had to do it...there reallly was nowhere to go with "further dislike"). I was the classic young woman who seeks affirmation of low self esteem in sh*gging anyone who asks...and wakes up next day feeling utterly degraded and humiliated by that...

In very, clear, practical terms I started to realise, whenever a guy would try to pick me up socially that I could get myself made use of to fill exactly the same sexual need by someone nicer and far more respectful AND get paid for it...

...and my next thought was to realise I deserved better that letting myself be used like that for free.

I had to re-read this because I thought I was reading DCGs blog for a minute. This doesn't sound too dissimilar to dcgs own account and yet earlier in this thread you decided that this somehow defined her "pathological need" to become a prostitute, when she clearly stated that actually she just knew she could make easy money.

Not being coy, but I think I went into that *WAY* too much earlier in the thread and it's probably best not revisited, except to say that of course I do not believe you have to be hypersensitive or unstable to be damaged by prostitution...but that those who chose to sell sex and found they were damaged by it probably take responsibility for that choice, rather than projecting it onto others, as a vital part of their recovery.

I think she is very actively taking responsibility for her choices in life.

Babybuff

Stella Marr wrote: »

So sorry Baby Buff, I didn't see this message before my previous post. Hope you have a great afternoon and evening. XO

no worries, mea culpa I had a fuzzy head earlier.

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

I had to re-read this because I thought I was reading DCGs blog for a minute. This doesn't sound too dissimilar to dcgs own account and yet earlier in this thread you decided that this somehow defined her "pathological need" to become a prostitute, when she clearly stated that actually she just knew she could make easy money.

I honestly think you are mixing that up with a different blog, because here is the part about why she got into prostitution:

http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-subtle-infiltration-of-prostitution/

See this bit particularly:

DCG's blog wrote:

I was completely in control of my own work. I didn’t have anyone controlling me or pressuring me or forcing me. The only control I was under was my own mind. I was in full time college at the same time, and had a part time job. My connection to the ‘real world’ and normality was very strong, and, I think the main reason for why I didn’t just denounce the world and end up living alone and escorting full time. I had good friends, a good family and good housemates and was completely financially secure.

She says money wasn't her motive - easy or otherwise - and more *she did not even need the money* ...she was completely financially secure.

(I was utterly desperate for money for necessities to survive, with no "good friends" or family at all, otherwise I would never have been able to force myself to sell sex under any circumstances)

You really have to read the whole piece properly to see what she claims to be her motivation in selling sex, it is complicated, but it does come down to a pathological compulsion (broadly akin to self harm) as a reaction to a deeply twisted relationship she was involved in. Nothing to do with money at all...

I hated prostitution before, during and after I had to do it, DCG claims she did not consciously hate it until afterwards...

I want to avoid ever having to sell sex again if I can, but what other people choose, or need to do for the money is their own business to decide with the same freedom I had.

DCG wants to punish everyone who buys sex so that other people cannot make up their own mind whether they want, or need to sell sex or not.

Babybuff

He broke my already low self esteem down so far that I was a pliable play thing in his hands.

I think it was during these years that made me into such a great actress. Not a theatre actress, but a life actress. I can fool anyone. I could be, if I so chose to be, a master manipulator. I can be two or three people, at the same time, depending on who I am interacting with, or what situation I am in. I can hide what I’m feeling perfectly, and not just hide it, but translate it into something else. I can persuade myself that what I’m feeling isn’t real. I can translate that feeling into something else, something more dealable with. It’s a coping mechanism.

It usually lasted about two hours a time and he always paid me for it. The money was an unspoken thing. He called it ‘pocket money’. I was sixteen.

The money that he paid me both flattered me, and repulsed me. I felt both cheap and valuable. This same contrast of emotions is what propelled me into and kept me involved in prostitution. This is a difficult clash of emotions. I was both gratified and used. I was a teenager, thinking that 100 pounds was a lot of money. I was also so low in self esteem that I would take that 100 pounds and translate it into what I was worth, sexually or otherwise.

This is how prostitution infiltrated my life. With such subtlety. All the pointers were there ; being objectified and commodfied, not owning yourself but rather being owned by men, being used by men for their pathetic sexual interests, doing what you are told. I was a utensil for their ejaculation. This is what prostitution is. This is how prostitution entered my life. Does it sound like I ‘chose’ it?

All of these big parts of what prostitution are were already being subtley manipulated into my head and I didn’t even realise it.

Nobody wakes up one day thinking ‘Hey I think I’ll be a hooker’ and just goes for it. There is always something else behind the scenes, in the backround. There is always some story, some reason beyond the facade. The truth is there somewhere, but while you’re in this mental survival mode, admitting these things is psychological suicide. When you see yourself as an object for men’s use and abuse, it’s easier to go along with it. It’s always easier to be hard as nails then admit vulnerability.

When you have no self worth, and someone thinks you are worth 250 euro an hour, it’s quite addictive, not to mention easy, to place your self worth in that kind of attention. It’s easier to play that role than challenge how you got there. It’s a quagmire of lies and justification and deception, and a deep, deep delusion, and the people funding it, encouraging it, creating it, are the punters.

yeah, I've read it, and it's still a great piece of writing. You don't see the similarities?

She does begin the piece by stating that at times it may sound conflicting or contradictory (not that it does to me) but as she explains that is the psychology behind it.

She does state elsewhere that she used the money to put herself through college, a fact she was almost quite proud of at the time.

funny how you don't see the reseblance though. Ok I'm guessing maybe if you have kids and she doesn't that it might appear trivial but as I said earlier, she knew it was an easy way to make money

and she quite clearly states that the people she feels most resentment toward are the punters Eileen. I doubt she feels that way about you.

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

I wasn't really suggesting legislating for people with disabilities, I wouldn't know a great deal about it tbh, it was more like trying to define where sexual services might be deemed appropriate. I'm not very informed otherwise (although I did work with people with disabilities and people with autism in particular over the years it was never something I had any personal discussion about or knowledge of) but I can appreciate the compassionate aspect of it.

Oh no, it is just as you mentioned it and there was response it reminded me to mention that...because I never even thought about it myself until years after I was out of prostitution when this disabled rights activist I know told me about the Dutch paid sex allowance for the disabled and my gut reaction was:

"WAY TO BUILD self confidence in young disabled people...tell 'em the are so hopeless they need an allowance to buy sex"

I though the sooner and the more often that topic was mention for people to think about the better is all.

Babybuff

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Oh no, it is just as you mentioned it and there was response it reminded me to mention that...because I never even thought about it myself until years after I was out of prostitution when this disabled rights activist I know told me about the Dutch paid sex allowance for the disabled and my gut reaction was:

"WAY TO BUILD self confidence in young disabled people...tell 'em the are so hopeless they need an allowance to buy sex"

I though the sooner and the more often that topic was mention for people to think about the better is all.

um. OK I don't know which kind of disabilities we are referring to because there are a lot. I spent some time working with men with MS and had conversations with the same, as much as they would liked to have been in loving relationships for many it wasn't possible and they did suffer depression as a result of the loss of many aspects of leading a "normal life". (actually it was kind of a joke one guy had running everytime I had to change his catheter, not that I was offended by it in anyway, I knew him and understood his humour.. There were a few men who would have fallen under this category that I could think of and they all lived independently too)

Eileen_Lang

Stella Marr wrote: »

The blog Feminist Ire is written by a woman who has never been prostituted named Wendy Lyon, and she works with Turn Off the Blue Light and posts on the blog of an admitted madam.

Can I correct a very serious factual error about a fully identified individual who is not here to correct it themselves?

Wendy Lyons works with the Sex Workers Alliance Ireland *NOT* "Turn Off the Blue Light". They are two very different organisations indeed.

"Turn Off the Blue Light" is a thinly disguised (I don't think they really fool anyybody) alliance of pimps who want to demand specific legislation that will protect their earnings at the expense of independent sex workers.

It has been inactive for several months.

Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland is very different in origin.

I have no idea whether or not Wendy Lyons posts on the blog of an "admitted madam" but as you were so mistaken about the first part I think you should name that blog or the madam so we can see for ourselves what the connection might be?

"Feminist Ire" is written by two people, not just Wendy Lyons, and makes that very clear.

If you want to see the financial records of *ANY* company (Not just Ruhama) they have to be filed, annually, by law and are available from the Companies' Registration Office online for a nominal fee.

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

You don't see the similarities?

No, not a trace of them...and if if anyone has time to wade through my own (much drier and more objective) story, which should show up on the site on my signature (you need to click through the link to the old site util I have finished upgrading) I don't think they would see any similarities either.

She claims it was all about reactive psychological and emotional compulsion (*BEFORE* I was a prostitute I used to *give away* a lot of one night stands *free* for reasons you might regard as similar, but selling sex taught me more regard for my self and sexuality than that) ...for me, and every hooker I ever met, it was all, strictly about the money...and totally unconnected to my own sexuality in any way. My sexuality (and any attendant hangups) was a different activity that happened elsewhere.

A lot of sex workers go to incredible lengths to draw strict boundaries between their own sexuality and the sexual facility they provide for clients. I was one of them.

Stella Marr

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Can I correct a very serious factual error about a fully identified individual who is not here to correct it themselves?

Wendy Lyons works with the Sex Workers Alliance Ireland *NOT* "Turn Off the Blue Light". They are two very different organisations indeed.

"Turn Off the Blue Light" is a thinly disguised (I don't think they really fool anyybody) alliance of pimps who want to demand specific legislation that will protect their earnings at the expense of independent sex workers.

It has been inactive for several months.

Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland is very different in origin.

I have no idea whether or not Wendy Lyons posts on the blog of an "admitted madam" but as you were so mistaken about the first part I think you should name that blog or the madam so we can see for ourselves what the connection might be?

"Feminist Ire" is written by two people, not just Wendy Lyons, and makes that very clear.

If you want to see the financial records of *ANY* company (Not just Ruhama) they have to be filed, annually, by law and are available from the Companies' Registration Office online for a nominal fee.

Thing is Eileen, Wendy Lyon does post on the blog of an admitted madam named Maggie McNeill. And I have it from very creditable sources that she has been affiliated with Turn Off the Blue Light, which as you helpfully pointed out is a thinly disguised alliance of pimps.

Don't you think it's silly to keep denying the truth of what I'm saying?

What's more, the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland promotes and is affiliated with the International Union of Sex Workers, which is headed by a male pimp who owns one of the largest escort services in London, and many other such services throughout the UK.

THe Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland is also connected with many organizations in the US which are thinly disguised alliances of pimps, such as COYOTE, the Sex Workers Outreach Project, the Sex Workers Project, PONY, STELLA (Montreal) et al. The SWA of Ireland even shares a logo with the Sex Workers Outreach Project and the Sex Workers Project. All of these organizations invite pimps and Johns to be members, and they spend a large percentage of their incoming protecting pimps and Johns rather than improving things for the women in prostitution. So they really aren't alliances or groups of women in prostitution, they are groups composed of those who exploit these women.
http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org/internationallinks.html

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

um. OK I don't know which kind of disabilities we are referring to because there are a lot. I spent some time working with men with MS and had conversations with the same, as much as they would liked to have been in loving relationships for many it wasn't possible and they did suffer depression as a result of the loss of many aspects of leading a "normal life". (actually it was kind of a joke one guy had running everytime I had to change his catheter, not that I was offended by it in anyway, I knew him and understood his humour.. There were a few men who would have fallen under this category that I could think of and they all lived independently too)

This was coming from the perspective of seriously physically disabled people, though not specified as limited to them. The activist I mentioned discussing it with has chronic R and R MS. ( - and still remains hotter'n' hades and not remotely in need of a "paid sex allowance")

Now I *DO* see a place, and a need, for facillitating sex for disabled people)...I just think a *SPECIFIC* "paid for sex" allowance is a terrible demoralising thing to hand them and should probably be done in a more discretionary way or as part of a more generic incapacity allowance.

Stella Marr

Re the disabled and prostitution -- I don't think this should be used to justify decriminalizing pimping and puntering. If this is such an important need, why not have all society members participate in a lottery of some kind -- where those who are picked service anyone who declares a need. That would be much more just.

I do have a lot of compassion for the subject, as someone I grew up with has cerebral palsy (he was like my brother), I have good friends with Asperger's and I myself have multiple sclerosis. (I've had it since I was a teenager). It made me extremely vulnerable to pimps.

Babybuff

The way I see it she is talking retrospectively, and with the benefit of hindsight and wisdom sharing what she believes were the underlying causes which propelled her into the sphere of prostitution. I'm sure when she was there she would probably say she was doing it for the money too.

I understand very well the one night stand and casual sex lifestyle, I don't want to get into my own personal life but I do know exactly what it is like to not be able to form any kind of stable loving relationship with another human being, when sex is meaningless and it is easier to have detached random encounters as some form of substitute for intimacy. I'm guessing a fair few people here do too.

Stella Marr

I realize no one here was suggesting we must have prostitution to service the disabled -- I was making a pre-emptive point for those reading who might have thought it

Thanks much

Stella Marr

Babybuff wrote: »

yeah, I've read it, and it's still a great piece of writing. You don't see the similarities?

and she quite clearly states that the people she feels most resentment toward are the punters Eileen. I doubt she feels that way about you.

I see the similarites Babybuff, and I agree with you.

Babybuff

Stella Marr wrote: »

Re the disabled and prostitution -- I don't think this should be used to justify decriminalizing pimping and puntering. If this is such an important need, why not have all society members participate in a lottery of some kind -- where those who are picked service anyone who declares a need. That would be much more just.

I do have a lot of compassion for the subject, as someone I grew up with has cerebral palsy (he was like my brother), I have good friends with Asperger's and I myself have multiple sclerosis. (I've had it since I was a teenager). It made me extremely vulnerable to pimps.

I honestly wouldn't know where to begin contemplating proposals or solutions to those issues, maybe an area I shouldn't have touched on but I I thought it would be something considered under medical needs. Not sure what kind of category it would even fall under tbh. Will leave it there so

Eileen_Lang

Stella Marr wrote: »

What's more, the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland promotes and is affiliated with the International Union of Sex Workers, which is headed by a male pimp who owns one of the largest escort services in London, and many other such services throughout the UK.

THe Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland is also connected with many organizations in the US which are thinly disguised alliances of pimps, such as COYOTE, the Sex Workers Outreach Project, the Sex Workers Project, PONY, STELLA (Montreal) et al. The SWA of Ireland even shares a logo with the Sex Workers Outreach Project and the Sex Workers Project. All of these organizations invite pimps and Johns to be members, and they spend a large percentage of their incoming protecting pimps and Johns rather than improving things for the women in prostitution. So they really aren't alliances or groups of women in prostitution, they are groups composed of those who exploit these women.
http://www.sexworkersallianceireland.org/internationallinks.html

I see, so you are saying that the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland are, essentially, run and controlled by pimps?

It is only fair to warn you that would contradict the information I have on them.

I actually like MaggieMcNeill myself...for my own enjoyment, not politics, she is, exactly what she says on the tin "honest", no frills, no manipulation...and for me, as a private individual, that quality trumps everything, apart from the intelligence and insight she has in abundance.

I can honestly say I have no idea she even admitted being a Madam (she does) until now and have never seen any reference to what she means by that on her blog...so I can't really comment.

As for "Turn off the Blue Light" I would agree that Wendy has been guilty of taking them at face value in minor ways, but that goes with the territory of being young and idealistic and is *not* the same as being affiliated with them.

Instead of just saying these things here, effectively "behind her back", why don't you say them to her directly through her blog or facebook and let her answer for herself (after all, I am *not* her mother, there is only so much I know)? She is very approachable....and I really do not think you should be making allegations this serious in public against a named and identified person without asking them for comment.

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

The way I see it she is talking retrospectively, and with the benefit of hindsight and wisdom sharing what she believes were the underlying causes which propelled her into the sphere of prostitution. I'm sure when she was there she would probably say she was doing it for the money too.

I don't think it would be appropriate to speculate about what she would probably have said at some past time!!!

My own "underlying causes" (many years on) were that I needed money desperately to survive and had no other way to get it, and the material aspects of "why" are a story that, unfortunately I cannot tell in any more detail than is already on my site without identifying myself...but that should not matter, because needing money for the basic essentials to survive and not having any other way to get it is probably the same whatever the reasons. When it gets to *THAT* stage you do not need another "underlying" reason.

DCG however, is at pains to make it perfectly clear that she had plenty of money and supports to survive.

Babybuff wrote: »

I understand very well the one night stand and casual sex lifestyle, I don't want to get into my own personal life but I do know exactly what it is like to not be able to form any kind of stable loving relationship with another human being, when sex is meaningless and it is easier to have detached random encounters as some form of substitute for intimacy. I'm guessing a fair few people here do too.

Oh no, for me that wasn't it at all...I did not want casual encounters (I hated them)...but I was desperately lonely so I let guys use me for sex so I could kid myself for an hour or two...simple as...


Selling sex was a very nasty job I did because I needed that money so badly...no kidding myself at all there, which also made it impossible for me to kid myself about the (often far less considerate and respectful) guys I let use me in far worse ways for free.

Babybuff

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

Oh no, for me that wasn't it at all...I did not want casual encounters (I hated them)...but I was desperately lonely so I let guys use me for sex so I could kid myself for an hour or two...simple as...

I think sometimes we are just saying the same thing in different languages. It' like having some kind of verbal dyslexia.

Selling sex was a very nasty job I did because I needed that money so badly...no kidding myself at all there, which also made it impossible for me to kid myself about the (often far less considerate and respectful) guys I let use me in far worse ways for free.

Y'know..I need money. I have an 18 year old and I've been needing money for 18 years and honestly what stopped me from selling myself was the fact that I wouldn't rate my body highly enough But other than that at times I don't think I would have given a flying f*ck. I didn't care about myself, was used to be treated like a vessel for mens pleasure anyway and accepted that was just how life is. I had very low self esteem.
(I hate men too much to even consider it at this stage)

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

Y'know..I need money. I have an 18 year old and I've been needing money for 18 years and honestly what stopped me from selling myself was the fact that I wouldn't rate my body highly enough But other than that at times I don't think I would have given a flying f*ck. I didn't care about myself, was used to be treated like a vessel for mens pleasure anyway and accepted that was just how life is. I had very low self esteem.
(I hate men too much to even consider it at this stage)

I have gone through a lot of those phases myself (since I left prostitution, never mind before), but personally, for me, I literally *COULD NOT* sell sex unless it was a matter of survival...that's also why I could not save any money...as soon as I had some I couldn't get myself back out until there was no money left...

But that is *JUST ME* not everybody...I am not saying I am better (or worse) than people I am coming to know who sell sex because, on balance, it is the best of a variety of non-ideal career options...or the one elective prostitute I knew back in the day (and had totally forgotten about) who could not have kids, so she and her partner (absolutely lovely...and I usually have a " 'tude" on a mile high around the partners of active sex workers, but this guy was a darling who worked every hour god sent himself) sat down and worked out all the things they wanted to do with their lives without children, and how they would get the money to pay for them, and that was how it worked out...

I am saying that women have the right to choose prostitution for themselves, whatever their reason...and that, for too many of them, the same as me, that reason is one form or another of absolute desperation for anyone to be arguing with that or trying to take that last chance away from them. (Edited to add, NOBODY has the right to play games as dangerous as that with other people's survival.)

...and that when a person makes any bad, self harmful choices (like my early promiscuity) they have to take responsibility for that choice, and for changing that themselves...

You won't see me calling for one night stands to be criminalised...I don't need to, I just need to recognise who I am, and what I need and go with that instead...and let other people make their own choices, and even their own mistakes...

After all, however bitter I was about that (and I was) I always recognised that I was really bitter about the people who did not and never would love or want me (including family) rather than the guys who used me.

With my clients I had to recognise that I was really bitter about all the other life and career choices I honestly never had a chance at, not with them for buying the sex I sold.

Stella Marr

Eileen_Lang wrote: »

I see, so you are saying that the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland are, essentially, run and controlled by pimps?

It is only fair to warn you that would contradict the information I have on them.

.

No, I'm saying that SWA of Ireland has the same logo as organizations run and controlled by pimps in the USA, and links to these organizations on their website. I think I was quite clear about that.

Stella Marr

Quoting Eileen:
I actually like MaggieMcNeill myself...for my own enjoyment, not politics, she is, exactly what she says on the tin "honest", no frills, no manipulation...and for me, as a private individual, that quality trumps everything, apart from the intelligence and insight she has in abundance.

I can honestly say I have no idea she even admitted being a Madam (she does) until now and have never seen any reference to what she means by that on her blog...so I can't really comment.

Eileen you enjoy Maggie's blog, yet you've never glanced at its "About Maggie McNeill Section?"

From her blog: I'm a retired call girl and madam born in 1966, now retired to my country estate

Call Girls do not retire to country estates, let me tell you. And in fact, she admits she was a madam. And since she's so actively involved in crushing any efforts to control the profits made off of pimping, one can speculate that ....

Stella Marr

Is being a call girl the same as a one night stand?

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/how-is-prostitution-not-like-a-one-night-stand/

Babybuff

think I've just about given myself an ulcer so going to hang up my fingers for the night. Thanks for sharing.

Stella Marr

Take care Babybuff

Eileen_Lang

Stella Marr wrote: »

No, I'm saying that SWA of Ireland has the same logo as organizations run and controlled by pimps in the USA, and links to these organizations on their website.

Like these organisations? Do you have any proof of that?

Coyote:
" COYOTE works for the rights of all sex workers: strippers, phone operators, prostitutes, porn actresses etc. of all genders and persuasions. COYOTE supports programs to assist sex workers in their choice to change their occupation, works to prevent the scapegoating of sex workers for AIDS and other STDs, and to educate sex workers, their clients and the general public about safe sex. COYOTE is a member of The North American Task Force on Prostitution, and The International Committee for Prostitutes' Rights ."

Sex Workers Outreach Project:
"Sex Workers Outreach Project-USA is a national social justice network dedicated to the fundamental human rights of sex workers and their communities, focusing on ending violence and stigma through education and advocacy."

The Sex Workers Project:
"The Sex Workers Project (SWP) provides legal services and legal training, and engages in documentation and policy advocacy, for sex workers. Using a harm reduction and human rights model, we protect the rights and safety of sex workers who by choice, circumstance, or coercion remain in the industry."

STELLA (Montreal):
"Stella was created in 1995 through the initiative of a handful of sex-workers, public-health researchers and sympathisers. The first team consisted of four employees, a handful of volunteers and sympathizers. <snip to get to the point>

We participate in a diversity of committees, coalitions, research groups and Boards of Directors. Our media presence is strong, and we are often invited to give lectures at conferences dealing with topics related to sex work."


(PONY are totally open and honest about their affiliation):
"PONY is a support and advocacy group for all people in the sex industry. We welcome all current or former sex workers, including male, female or TS/TV prostitutes, erotic dancers, nude models, x-rated actors, peep show performers, phone sex workers, S&M/B&D professionals, strippers, madams, and so on." )

Eileen_Lang

Babybuff wrote: »

think I've just about given myself an ulcer so going to hang up my fingers for the night. Thanks for sharing.

You too...

Eileen_Lang

Stella Marr wrote: »

Eileen you enjoy Maggie's blog, yet you've never glanced at its "About Maggie McNeill Section?"

No I haven't, no reason to...as I said, I just read her for fun and interest sometimes - she was linked from a couple of other (non-sex work) blogs I followed. I enjoy the way her mind works as a human being, the fact that it was also about sex work was very incidental to that.

Stella Marr wrote: »

From her blog: I'm a retired call girl and madam born in 1966, now retired to my country estate

I have a feeling that may just be her sense of humour (perhaps even the "Madam" part? I was once capable of being a "proper little Madam" myself, after all) - but, of course, I have no way of knowing...perhaps there is a way to ask her too?

PS: MaggieMcNeil has an email on her blog for queries, so I have asked her, let's see what she has to say?

Stella Marr

OK Elaine. Now you're actively engaging in disinformation. You're also being quite disingenous.

I didn't say the SWA of Ireland had the same logo as all those organizations, I said they had the same logo as the sex workers outreach project, which was founded by a US madam, named RObin Few http://www.swopusa.org/dec17/
Robin Few was convicted of engaging in conspiracy to promote prostitution (in otherwords pimping)

Eileen you even admit PONY welcomes madams so why are you posting them as refutation?

I'll provide more info on the other orgs later

Eileen_Lang

Stella Marr wrote: »

OK Elaine. Now you're actively engaging in disinformation. You're also being quite disingenous.

I didn't say the SWA of Ireland had the same logo as all those organizations,

No, what you *said* went further than saying they had the same logo as all those organisations:

Stella Marr wrote: »

What's more, the Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland promotes and is affiliated with the International Union of Sex Workers, which is headed by a male pimp who owns one of the largest escort services in London, and many other such services throughout the UK.

THe Sex Workers Alliance of Ireland is also connected with many organizations in the US which are thinly disguised alliances of pimps, such as COYOTE, the Sex Workers Outreach Project, the Sex Workers Project, PONY, STELLA (Montreal) et al. The SWA of Ireland even shares a logo with the Sex Workers Outreach Project and the Sex Workers Project. All of these organizations invite pimps and Johns to be members, and they spend a large percentage of their incoming protecting pimps and Johns rather than improving things for the women in prostitution. So they really aren't alliances or groups of women in prostitution, they are groups composed of those who exploit these women.

Stella Marr wrote: »

I said they had the same logo as the sex workers outreach project, which was founded by a US madam, named RObin Few http://www.swopusa.org/dec17/
Robin Few was convicted of engaging in conspiracy to promote prostitution (in otherwords pimping)

I am sorry, there does not seem to be anything about your allegations about Robin few on that link, though it *WAS* an excellent link to post - to a campaign against violence against sex workers and a remarkable video ad by a T-girl sex worker...and I cannot, as yet, find anything else about her at all.

(Here is the link you probably intended to post Robin Few, in her own words, surely not editorialising from me needed? People can form their own opinions, her arrest and conviction was obviously very complicated stuff under the "Patriot Act" (see text below video, it's the most detail I can find), and, so far, hardly establishes whether she was ever a pimp one way or the other http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v24RSf2iNs !!!NOT SUITABLE FOR WORK!!! mostly because of some other videos on the sidebar )

Stella Marr wrote: »

Eileen you even admit PONY welcomes madams so why are you posting them as refutation?

I did not post them as a refutation (and "they" admit it, not "me" - vital distinction), but rather as full information, as opposed to hiding, or distorting anything that did not suit me (too many people do that).

(Though I did genuinely forget to check The International Union of Sex Workers (status inconclusive IMHO though he seems a very nice, empathetic guy whenever I deal with him - and the organisational aims are good to go):

"We’re a group of people who work in the sex industry and adult entertainment, together with allies who support our aims.

We believe that everyone in the industry, whether they are there through choice, circumstance or coercion, deserves the same human, civil and labour rights as other citizens.

We’re a grassroots organisation, founded by a migrant who worked in a range of jobs in the sex industry. The organisation brings together people from all sectors – people who sell sexual contact or BDSM services, people who work for or run agencies, websites or brothels, strippers, erotic dancers and glamour models, porn actors and film makers, phone sex workers and web cam models; men, women and transgender people; straight, gay and bisexual."

Stella Marr wrote: »

I'll provide more info on the other orgs later

If you are going to make allegations I would ask that you substantiate them with something out of respect for boards.