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Secret Diary of a Dublin Call Girl

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  • #212
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Eileen_Lang wrote: »
    Does it ever cross your mind that not even a pimp would do anything as inhuman as fight to take the whole of the women's income away and leave them with nothing but a handful of empty, dishonest, platitudes to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads?

    So now you're defending pimps Eileen. I must say that's very predictable.

    As a woman who was prostituted for ten years, I think it's ridiculous to say survivors who speak out and those that empathize with them are 'insulting' women still in prostitution. That's a common argument used by the sex industry lobby to try to silence survivors. There's something vicious about saying that by speaking out about the violence and abuse we experienced, we are insulting and therefore must shut up.

    Imagine someone doing this to a woman who was speaking about a sexual assault she'd experienced. No one would tolerate it.


  • #213
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    yeah...I started out this thread feeling angry with men and all I feel now is disgust with the women who perpetuate this kind of crap. I'm hating women today.


  • #214
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    yeah...I started out this thread feeling angry with men and all I feel now is disgust with the women who perpetuate this kind of crap. I'm hating women today.

    Why is Eileen's view not valid though? This is what I don't understand. You may find her reasoning flawed or argue that it's coming from an unhealthy place (I wouldn't be so sure). Why is she demonised because she is not against prostitution? Why don't people argue against her stance rather than getting angry at her? Her perspective is worth hearing too.


  • #215
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Millicent wrote: »
    Why is Eileen's view not valid though? This is what I don't understand. You may find her reasoning flawed or argue that it's coming from an unhealthy place (I wouldn't be so sure). Why is she demonised because she is not against prostitution? Why don't people argue against her stance rather than getting angry at her? Her perspective is worth hearing too.
    I never said her view wasn't valid, I just disagree with it, this is how it makes me feel..ashamed and if I wasn't so hungover right now I'd try and articulate why. I'm also tired of trying to communicate my sentiments on the topic as they don't seem to count anyway. Stil...cmon eileen.


  • #216
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Babybuff wrote: »
    yeah...I started out this thread feeling angry with men and all I feel now is disgust with the women who perpetuate this kind of crap.

    It is really disgusting, I agree with that. But men's demand is the engine that drives prostitution and they perpetrate almost all the violence on the women in prostitution.

    But there are women who are profitting vastly off the prostitution of other women. They almost always in business with violent men. And the tactics of these women can be especially vicious.

    Additionally, online sometimes male pimps or Johns will pose as women. Again, I'm speaking in generalization, I'm not referring specifically to Eileen ....


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  • #217
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    I appreciate your comments Baby Buff


  • #218
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Stella Marr wrote: »
    It is really disgusting, I agree with that. But men's demand is the engine that drives prostitution and they perpetrate almost all the violence on the women in prostitution.

    But there are women who are profitting vastly off the prostitution of other women. They almost always in business with violent men. And the tactics of these women can be especially vicious.

    Additionally, online sometimes male pimps or Johns will pose as women. Again, I'm speaking in generalization, I'm not referring specifically to Eileen ....
    I watched the primetime episode which investigated prostitution in Ireland and one of the main culprits was a woman. I can't really begin to say how it makes me feel.


  • #219
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I never said her view wasn't valid, I just disagree with it, this is how it makes me feel..ashamed and if I wasn't so hungover right now I'd try and articulate why. I'm also tired of trying to communicate my sentiments on the topic as they don't seem to count anyway. Stil...cmon eileen.

    But you said you're "disgusted" by the women in this thread. I assume that means Eileen?

    Sorry, don't mean to be annoying you when you've a hangover! ;) I don't mean to be aggressive either, btw. There just seemed to be a bit of a pile-on on Eileen.


  • #220
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Millicent wrote: »
    But you said you're "disgusted" by the women in this thread. I assume that means Eileen?

    Sorry, don't mean to be annoying you when you've a hangover! ;) I don't mean to be aggressive either, btw. There just seemed to be a bit of a pile-on on Eileen.
    no I said I'm disgusted by the women who perpetuate the cycle, the ones who enable men to do this, treat women like crap. it all seems so hopeless though.


  • #221
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I watched the primetime episode which investigated prostitution in Ireland and one of the main culprits was a woman. I can't really begin to say how it makes me feel.

    Yes -- it's often that way. Because the women help draw the girls in and they keep the misleading fantasies about prostitution going, using these fantasies as a device to sell the women they are sexually exploiting to men. And using this deception to advocate for pimp profits and silence survivors whenever it seems society is awakening to the truth about prostitution.


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  • #222
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    no I said I'm disgusted by the women who perpetuate the cycle, the ones who enable men to do this, treat women like crap. it all seems so hopeless though.

    What crap specifically? Prostitution? Or the abuse that happens within prostitution?


  • #223
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Millicent wrote: »
    What crap specifically? Prostitution? Or the abuse that happens within prostitution?
    Both


  • #224
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    Both

    So you are 100 per cent against prostitution, even in cases, like the ones Eileen described, where it's a survival tactic?


  • #225
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Millicent wrote: »
    So you are 100 per cent against prostitution, even in cases, like the ones Eileen described, where it's a survival tactic?
    I'm against murder, even though I think society would be better off without some people in it. if you know what I mean.


  • #226
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I'm against murder, even though I think society would be better off without some people in it. if you know what I mean.

    Would you think it's as great a crime? ETA: Or do you consider a crime? On the part of the prostitute or the john? And what would you have those same women do instead if they have no other options?

    Thanks for the analogy; I get what you mean.


  • #227
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Hang on, I should really try harder. I'm against prostitution 98%..if that's at all acceptable. I mean if it were regulated and I mean really regulated where the girls health was first priority and in that I mean regular mental and physical checks and the availability of counselling (actually practically compulsory as part of the job)
    I also understand that there might be an element of society which need "servicing"..but really in terms of a medical substitute say for instance in cases of physical disability and the like.


  • #228
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Babybuff wrote: »
    no I said I'm disgusted by the women who perpetuate the cycle, the ones who enable men to do this, treat women like crap. it all seems so hopeless though.

    I'm disgusted too. But it isn't hopeless -- many things seem homeless, and then a solution appears -- for example in the southern USA people of color were segregated from the white population and terrorized by the Ku Klux Klan. It seemed hopeless, but with the passage of the civil rights act in 1964 all schools and public places became integrated.

    A series of laws referred to as "the nordic model" have vastly reduced trafficking and the numbers of women in prostitution in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland.

    Here's how it works: It makes it illegal to be a punter/John or a pimp (meaning male & female pimps, brothel and escort agency owners, 'managers' whatever title pimps choose to give themselves).

    BUT IT IS NEVER A CRIME TO BE A PROSTITUTE -- instead the women are connected with social services and given the status of crime victims. They can even sue their punters/Johns for financial damages, on the basis that these men have violated their equality, humanity and dignity.

    Men's demand is the engine that drives prostitution. It motivates pimps (whether male or female) to commercially sexually exploit girls and young women.

    It's been very successful.

    Here's a good article on it:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1079125--the-scars-of-prostitution


  • #229
    Stella Marr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Stella Marr


    Above, I meant the nordic model has been very successful, as described here:

    http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1079125--the-scars-of-prostitution


  • #230
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Babybuff wrote: »
    Hang on, I should really try harder. I'm against prostitution 98%..if that's at all acceptable. I mean if it were regulated and I mean really regulated where the girls health was first priority and in that I mean regular mental and physical checks and the availability of counselling (actually practically compulsory as part of the job)
    I also understand that there might be an element of society which need "servicing"..but really in terms of a medical substitute say for instance in cases of physical disability and the like.

    Thanks for that. I actually think we're close enough in viewpoint now you've said that. I'm in favour of legislating, legalising and regulating prostitution. I think forcing it underground is worse for the women (and male too) prostitutes involved.

    I probably wouldn't distinguish between customers with physical disability, but do think the people who use prostitutes should be treated like in any work place, with security like in any job, and those who are troublesome or abusive ejected and reported to the police.


  • #231
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent I think this is a microcosm of the whole issue...

    Like abortion, prostitution is a part of reality many people find unpalatable as well as being the best crisis resolution choice available to a significant number of people, and, I am informed the best life choice available to even more.

    Unlike abortion prostitution harms nobody except the woman who does it, which is why it should be her choice and hers alone to make...because nobody else will ever be able to understand the nuances of her individual choices well enough...

    ...and, by the way, when did it get to be ok to impose our choices on other women's lives anyway?

    Also like abortion there is one lobby that is pro choice and another lobby that is anti-choice and wants to impose it's agenda on other people.

    They have no interest in finding out what the women working in the sex industry want or need because they intend, to decide that for them, and then impose it upon them by hook or by crook.

    Reason does not matter to them, reality does not matter to them, the needs of the women do not matter to them and the best interests of the women do not matter them...


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  • #232
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    I have to get to work, boss isn't going to be too happy with the head on me today :( I really haven't read into the nordic model yet, other than what's been spouted throughout this thread (which wasn't impressive) but I'm going to have a sit down with it later and educate myself. Thanks


  • #233
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Eileen, I agree with that. I think because some view sex as sacrosanct, they get angry at others who don't. Not everyone has an issue with using their sexual property for a living instead of their intellectual property or physical skills. I have a friend who prostituted briefly who is unaffected by it (and I mean that sincerely). It got her through a tough time and she doesn't regret it. I don't think she is indicative of all in the sex industry but I don't think she is all that unique either.

    I don't think it's an absolutist subject and I don't like seeing it treated like one, on either side. There are far too many shades of grey that fall to the wayside when that happens.


  • #234
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    The difference is that prostitution is a product of the patriarchy, whereas abortion is not (in fact, you could argue quite easily that the partiarchy would be pro-life).

    If we did not live in a patriarchy where men were dominant and culture encouraged men to feel entitlement and ownership over women's bodies as well as normalising the objectification, dehumanisation and villification of women, while encouraging women to be submissive and sexually available, I don't think prostitution would exist.


  • #235
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Kooli wrote: »
    The difference is that prostitution is a product of the patriarchy, whereas abortion is not (in fact, you could argue quite easily that the partiarchy would be pro-life).

    If we did not live in a patriarchy where men were dominant and culture encouraged men to feel entitlement and ownership over women's bodies as well as normalising the objectification, dehumanisation and villification of women, while encouraging women to be submissive and sexually available, I don't think prostitution would exist.

    I agree with that too. Prostitution is definitely the result of male gaze and objectification (which is very apparently demonstrated by the fact that lesbian prostitution is incredibly rare, while straight hetero and male gay prostitution is common).

    I think part of it comes from the "Madonna/whore" conundrum in that many customers of female prostitution can't see women as whole beings with both sexual and nurturing sides. Because of this, some male customers will see a prostitute for what their wife won't do or that he wouldn't ask her to do. I think we need to keep working on changing these attitudes and I honestly believe that when we do (as a society), we'll see prostitution drop off.

    Until then, however, there are still prostitutes and will always be prostitutes. I think we can work to ensure that those women and men are protected while still working to change those patriarchal attitudes.


  • #236
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I also understand that there might be an element of society which need "servicing"..but really in terms of a medical substitute say for instance in cases of physical disability and the like.

    Just a little food for thought Babybuff...but I think you have to be incredibly careful with legislating for issues of disability and prostitution. I have got into a lot of arguments with a disabled rights activist I know over this.

    In Holland they allocate a certain amount of social security for sexual services for the disabled. Now I appreciate, more than most, how vital sexual services *CAN* be for the disabled, but that is a very big *CAN*...

    I think that to have actual legislation that says you are entitled to an allowance specifically for sexual services is a clear and demoralising message to young disabled people that society automatically deems them unable to attract or form a healthy sexual relationship...maybe that is going to be the sad truth for some of them but not for all.


  • #237
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    creditable wrote: »
    It comes down to this - Some women can sell their bodies and laugh about how it's easy money, others will experience deep psychological trauma. It's the prospective prostitute's responsibility to estimate to which extent she fits into either of those two categories, and judging by that estimate, decide if it will be worth the money earned as weighted by their financial needs/wants.
    creditable wrote: »
    If their estimate turns out to be incorrect, and the reward of partaking in prostitution end ups up to be worth less to them than the extent of the resulting damage they receive, it's their fault, end of story.

    Just because some women who were already mentally damaged/hypersensitive made the wrong choice to enter into the industry when they should have know better, does not mean theses individuals can project their personal feelings onto women as a whole, many of whom have decided and concluded that it is worth the reward.

    I agree with the first portion, not the second. There's a distinct whiff of blame and reducing of viewpoints in that. Some women HAVE been damaged by prostitution and it would be churlish to say they hadn't. That doesn't make them "mentally damaged" or "hypersensitive".


  • #238
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    Millicent I honestly think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here.

    This is not a thread about who is in favour of prostitution and who is against it. By "in favour" I presume you mean in favour of it being legalised?

    This thread is about the realities of prostitution versus the fantasies. Eileen is the one who has come in and effectively said "Stop talking about it being bad for women: the only thing we should be concerned about is allowing women to make their own choices about being prostitutes."

    Sorry, but that's just not the full story. I understand you wish to engage Eileen, but I did my level best and unless you agree with 100% of what she says, and also agree to slate the viewpoints of ex-prostitutes who don't agree with her, then she simply will not engage fairly or with any measure of precision. She has slandered every other ex-prostitute mentioned in this thread and said a hell of a lot of spurious things about knowing who DCG is etc.

    For me, who abhors the idea of prostitution, it isn't even about stamping out prostitution. It is about caring for the women who get wrapped up in it. If legalising it were actually the best thing for the women involved, I would be all for it.


  • #239
    Babybuff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Babybuff


    Babybuff wrote: »
    I have to get to work, boss isn't going to be too happy with the head on me today :( I really haven't read into the nordic model yet, other than what's been spouted throughout this thread (which wasn't impressive) but I'm going to have a sit down with it later and educate myself. Thanks
    this is what I meant by what was previously spouted wrt the nordic model btw.. :o


  • #240
    Eileen_Lang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Eileen_Lang


    Millicent wrote: »
    Eileen, I agree with that. I think because some view sex as sacrosanct, they get angry at others who don't.

    I do that myself...VERY much so...but the difference is that I know that is *MY* choice, and my problem, not something I should go round imposing on others.

    Millicent wrote: »
    Not everyone has an issue with using their sexual property for a living instead of their intellectual property or physical skills. I have a friend who prostituted briefly who is unaffected by it (and I mean that sincerely).

    I am actually getting to know some women like that myself...I find it hard to relate to but, as above...*MY* problem...not theirs...they are happy the way they are.
    Millicent wrote: »
    It got her through a tough time and she doesn't regret it. I don't think she is indicative of all in the sex industry but I don't think she is all that unique either.

    I absolutely hated prostitution...but that is not the same as regretting it...THANK HEAVENS I had that choice available...otherwise there is no way I could have made it...beggars can't be choosers after all.
    Millicent wrote: »
    I don't think it's an absolutist subject and I don't like seeing it treated like one, on either side. There are far too many shades of grey that fall to the wayside when that happens.

    Totally...but I feel (and resent) the extent to which the current abolitionist lobby, and the recession, is boxing me into a corner where I have to make it black and white for the sake of the women who are actually involved.

    In a healthier economic climate I would be taking more of a:

    "Ok, you want to eradicate prostitution so badly then you need to STFU about persecuting people and stump up some adequate, independent, exit resources" but there is literally NO FLIPPIN' MONEY...

    (It makes me physically ill to think how much money this "Stop the Red Light" campaign is costing - and how many women, who badly want out, that money could have facillitated in exiting prostitution if it was given to them instead. )


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  • #241
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Millicent I honestly think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here.

    This is not a thread about who is in favour of prostitution and who is against it. By "in favour" I presume you mean in favour of it being legalised?

    This thread is about the realities of prostitution versus the fantasies. Eileen is the one who has come in and effectively said "Stop talking about it being bad for women: the only thing we should be concerned about is allowing women to make their own choices about being prostitutes."

    Sorry, but that's just not the full story. I understand you wish to engage Eileen, but I did my level best and unless you agree with 100% of what she says, and also agree to slate the viewpoints of ex-prostitutes who don't agree with her, then she simply will not engage fairly or with any measure of precision. She has slandered every other ex-prostitute mentioned in this thread and said a hell of a lot of spurious things about knowing who DCG is etc.

    For me, who abhors the idea of prostitution, it isn't even about stamping out prostitution. It is about caring for the women who get wrapped up in it. If legalising it were actually the best thing for the women involved, I would be all for it.

    Hi, Neuro,

    I possibly have and apologies if that is the case. I just thought it was a bit much that someone was accusing her of being a pimp.

    I also think it was more than fair and right when people told her to stop refuting whether DCG was real or not so I don't think she's above criticism or critique.

    I just think that it's unfair that people refuse to accept that she found worth in prostitution while arguing for the rights of prostitutes who have found prostitution to be damaging to have a voice. That to me is counter-productive and not conducive to debating or understanding the entire picture of prostitution.

    I understand that many of the posters on here abhor prostitution as you do, but the people who don't abhor should have a say in the matter too, especially those who have experience of the issue from within.

    You've piqued my interest with your last point. Do you not thinking legalising prostitution would help to care for the women within it?


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