UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

Shazbot · 19-12-2011 5:24pm

walshb wrote: »

Isn't serious? All breaks equal, are they? It is serious when a man deliberately chooses to inflict that type of pain and injury onto another human being.

Are you serious? The whole point of the sport is to beat your opponent. In a very broad sense this mean you have to incapacitate him. Every fighter needs to go out there and hurt their opponent. No one wants to purposally injure their opponent but sometimes it happens.

But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it. Won't tap, **** him, I am breaking his arm?

Again, delivering pain goes hand in hand with the sport. Every strike/submission will hurt, that's the point. If a fighter refuses to tap to a submission then it's on themselves. Bare in mind, Nogueira never gave out about Mir.
Maybe Big Nog wasn't aware it was going to break either. The humerus fractured at the midpoint down towards the elbow. Traditionally a kimura attacks the roator cuff of the shoulder. He probably felt no need to tap because he felt no pain at the shoulder and then the humerus snapped. It would be hard to detect pain on a stressed bone.

But, what that guy did crossed the line into barbarism. He chose to cause serious pain to a man who needed someone protecting him. All to get a win beside his name?

No one likes to see a broken limb in any sport but to call it barbarism is sensationalising the situation. Mir put on the submission, Noguira didn't tap so he continued to crank it. I'm not a big Mir fan andI don't like the way he was talking about it afterwards but I have no bad feelings toward him for what he did.

As the old phrase goes, tap or snap.

MrStuffins · 19-12-2011 7:45pm

walshb wrote: »

I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

Lol!

MrStuffins · 19-12-2011 7:50pm

horsemeat wrote: »

wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

Wrong.

GSP didn't finish the subs (Especially the arm-bar) because his technique was wrong. If you rewatch the event, GSP is seen in the locker-room being shown the mistake he made by Greg Jackson and is shown working on his technique.

Bit of info here if you're interested.

Mellor · 19-12-2011 10:17pm

walshb wrote: »

I'm out. Anyone who comes out with the troll card because of a disagreement doesn't deserve a reply.

I don't think you are trolling, but your point has no weight.
What was Mir supposed to do when Nog won't tap. Release it? Hold on to it but hold back a little force?

Are you an MMA fan, or a boxing fan catches the occasional MMA fight. Not trying to insult you or anything, but the comments sound a little naive.

El Guapo! · 19-12-2011 11:03pm

Mir had every right to break Nogs arm. I'm sure he didn't want to break it but he was left with no option but to push the submission further as Nog refused to tap. It's Nogs fault his arm broke. If Mir had set out to break his arm he would've ripped it off straight away instead of pulling on the sub gradually.

Saying he was wrong to do it just shows a lack of knowledge or understanding of the sport. If Mir had've let off the submission because he didn't want to do damage to Nog then there's every chance Nog would've thought all his christmasses came at once and he would've turned around and smashed Mirs face in.

Walshb I don't really post in the boxing forum but I lurk around it quite a bit and I generally agree with most of the stuff you post but you're wrong on this point. I'm not sure how much you know about the sport but maybe you should watch/read a bit more about it so you have a full understanding of it.
Again I don't mean this as an insult at all, I'm just trying to understand why you don't seem to realise it's not Mir's fault what happened. And I'm sure Nog holds no bad feelings over the incident either.

nino1 · 19-12-2011 11:23pm

walshb wrote: »

. I love boxing, but I abhore violence. ."

so boxing is okay where you can get repeated blows to the head for 12 rounds but getting your arm broke is barbaric.

as an old man in your eighties you will be much better off having had your arms broke once or twice rather than turning out like muhammed ali or michael watson from repeated blows to the head for 12-15 round fights.

pauldoo · 19-12-2011 11:38pm

walshb wrote: »

horsemeat wrote: »

wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

This is what I admire. I love boxing, but I abhore violence. I also admire a man who can show compassion. I know in MMA and boxing this is difficult to do, I know this, but it does not mean that I excuse every instance as "just part of the sport."

that is absolute crap,gsp didn't show compassion,hardy escaped at least one,and gsp let the others go,he didn't finish the fight cause he couldn't

Tubbs4 · 20-12-2011 12:50am

Matt hughes gave up an arm bar on royce gracie as royce would not tap. Hughes did not want to break his arm so he just pounded him out.
If fighters like Nog will not tap and Mir gives up hold it be a sad day for MMA.
As lots of submissions will be removed from the sport leading to less ways fir a fighter to win.
While i hate to see limbs being broken, I hate to see less skill - submissions in MMA.

dave1982 · 20-12-2011 12:52am

Mr. CooL ICE · 20-12-2011 2:39am

walshbb, if you were Mir and had Nog in a kimura and he wasn't tapping, what exactly would you do?

Please just answer without using the word 'compassion'

MrStuffins · 20-12-2011 2:57am

Lads, I have no idea why anyone is bothering.

Walsh, again I float around the Boxing forum and I actually agree with you a lot (Even if for some reason a lot of people seem to have something against you over there).

But your points show you're talking about something you have absolutely no understanding of. I am very surprised people are even arguing with you.

walshb · 20-12-2011 11:41am

Who has something against me over there? Is disagreeing from time to time now meaning "something against someone?"

No understanding of what, exactly? I am well aware the sport is combat, physical, tough and dangerous.
I am simply questioning the rules and protection available in the sport. So, what makes you understand all this and me not?

As for the arm issue. Surely the ref or someone can halt a bout BEFORE a man has to deliberately break an arm? That is all I am saying here. No big deal. Why is that if someones questions an action or disagress with a majority view that folks get so sensitive? So, I happen to think that what happened to Nog was terrible and should be outlawed/prevented when possible, shoot me for showing some kind of concern for a man's welfare.

If the foe won't tap out for whatever reason, pride, stupidity, he can't speak etc, surely these people need protecting? Just like a boxer who refuses to quit. The excuse that "he wouldn't quit or tap" just doesn't cut it. The man suffered a very painful injury that should have been prevented by protectors.

BTW, I assume a verbal submission is allowed? If a person cannot physically tap out, he can verbally quit?

Shazbot · 20-12-2011 11:58am

walshb wrote: »

.

BTW, I assume a verbal submission is allowed? If a person cannot physically tap out, he can verbally quit?

Of course they can. The can yell "tap" or "stop" and the ref will stop it. Even if you grunt or scream during a submission the ref can stop it as it is deemed a verbal submission.

As I said before, he probably didn't know it was going to break at the humerus as it is traditionally a shoulder lock. He tapped after the break but it was clearly too late.

If the foe won't tap out for whatever reason, pride, stupidity, he can't speak etc, surely these people need protecting? Just like a boxer who refuses to quit.

That's the job of the ref. Referees will often step in during a barrage of punches to stop fights for the safety of the fighter on the receiving end from himself. So what you want to see happen does occur but it is much more difficult to do this during a submission as the ref has no way of knowing when a bone is going to break. When Mir broke Tim Silvias arm with an armbar Silvia wanted to continue but the referee rightly stopped the fight. Sylvia protested the stoppage at the time but later thanked Herb Dean for the intervention.

The excuse that "he wouldn't quit or tap" just doen't cut it. The man suffered a very painful injury that should have been prevented by protectors.

The referee is there to protect fighters but they can't tell when a limb is going to break. That responsibility is on the fighter. Noguira has been training BJJ for nearly 20 years so he knows the consequences of not tapping. As I said before, he probably had no idea the humerus would break.

How exactly would you protect someone from themselves during a submission?

walshb · 20-12-2011 12:08pm

Shazbot wrote: »

Of course they can. The can yell "tap" or "stop" and the ref will stop it. Even if you grunt or scream during a submission the ref can stop it as it is deemed a verbal submission.

As I said before, he probably didn't know it was going to break at the humerus as it is traditionally a shoulder lock. He tapped after the break but it was clearly too late.

That's the job of the ref. Referees will often step in during a barrage of punches to stop fights for the safety of the fighter on the receiving end from himself. So what you want to see happen does occur but it is much more difficult to do this during a submission as the ref has no way of knowing when a bone is going to break. When Mir broke Tim Silvias arm with an armbar Silvia wanted to continue but the referee rightly stopped the fight. Sylvia protested the stoppage at the time but later thanked Herb Dean for the intervention.

The referee is there to protect fighters but they can't tell when a limb is going to break. That responsibility is on the fighter. Noguira has been training BJJ for nearly 20 years so he knows the consequences of not tapping. As I said before, he probably had no idea the humerus would break.

How exactly would you protect someone from themselves during a submission?

Well, at least we get a mature and civil and detailed reply. Maybe, just a suggestion here, a referee and fighter can work together. A fighter should be made tell a referee that there is a high possibility that he is going to break a limb if the fighter will not quit. The referee assesses, and then halts the bout.

Theoretically I suppose one could say that not the ref, or fighters can 100 percent know if a limb will break until it actually does. That is why maybe rules need to be revisited. If a fighter won't tap because of reasons I gave then the ref should take over

Fall_Guy · 20-12-2011 12:22pm

The arm break was very unfortunate, but as has been already said, this was quite an unusual situation as it is very rare that a kimura leads to a break like this. I don;t really like Mir's "tap or snap" mentality, but at the end of the day a fighter should (and usually does) have the sense / lack of ego to accept when they are in a position where they should tap. This is the very rare exception.

But I'm not sure why walshb is suggesting that this makes mma somehow barbaric, or worse than boxing. In this Danny Williams fight his shoulder clearly pops out and the ref LETS the fight continue. Now, granted, he miraculously pulls out the win and a seperation / dislocation does not compare to a broken humerus, but I wouldn't exactly call that exemplary work on the part of the "protectors" in this case?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY1jzjTjIhY

walshb · 20-12-2011 12:26pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

The arm break was very unfortunate, but as has been already said, this was quite an unusual situation as it is very rare that a kimura leads to a break like this. I don;t really like Mir's "tap or snap" mentality, but at the end of the day a fighter should (and usually does) have the sense / lack of ego to accept when they are in a position where they should tap. This is the very rare exception.

But I'm not sure why walshb is suggesting that this makes mma somehow barbaric, or worse than boxing. In this Danny Williams fight his shoulder clearly pops out and the ref LETS the fight continue. Now, granted, he miraculously pulls out the win and a seperation / dislocation does not compare to a broken humerus, but I wouldn't exactly call that exemplary work on the part of the "protectors" in this case?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY1jzjTjIhY

Boxing too can be barbaric. I love the sport, but I am not one who thinks both sports are somehow beyond criticism.

Boxing is littered with examples of barbarity. Just look at Wayne McCullough who was sent out round after round against Scott Harrison. His wife was his manger. And, the excuse, that "he didn't want to quit" is pathetic.

Fall_Guy · 20-12-2011 12:48pm

walshb wrote: »

Boxing too can be barbaric. I love the sport, but I am not one who thinks both sports are somehow beyond criticism.

Boxing is littered with examples of barbarity. Just look at Wayne McCullough who was sent out round after round against Scott Harrison. His wife was his manger. And, the excuse, that "he didn't want to quit" is pathetic.

That is fair enough then, I would agree that both sports have a barbaric element (boxing much more so, in my opinion) but I'm not sure that a man's arm breaking in a freakish way proves that.

cowzerp · 20-12-2011 1:00pm

chickendinner wrote: »

Are you a big troll?

Read the charter and next time be ready for a ban.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Walsh, again I float around the Boxing forum and I actually agree with you a lot (Even if for some reason a lot of people seem to have something against you over there).

There would be 1 or 2 lads who may have opposing view of Walshb over there but they would not have a problem with him, without some debate forums like this don't tend to work so it's all good.

with that said

Boxing is far more Barbaric than MMA, i have no doubts about that-the pounding a boxer can take in a 12 round fight is unreal, in a severe round of Boxing there would be more head blows landed than in a 5 round MMA fight where fights get stopped quite quick from strikes, no 10 count to start again, in MMA Thats the end of the fight if a 10 count is deemed necessary.

Many Boxers have Died in the ring or in hospital after and in many of the fights the fighters knew they where in trouble and fought on, Nog while i feel made a mistake will be back to 100% in a few months, ref's commonly stop subs that are clearly not going to be escaped from just like in Boxing where a ref might stop a fight that the punishment is just unnecessary

walshb · 20-12-2011 1:07pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Read the charter and next time be ready for a ban.

There would be 1 or 2 lads who may have opposing view of Walshb over there but they would not have a problem with him, without some debate forums like this don't tend to work so it's all good.

with that said

Boxing is far more Barbaric than MMA, i have no doubts about that-the pounding a boxer can take in a 12 round fight is unreal, in a severe round of Boxing there would be more head blows landed than in a 5 round MMA fight where fights get stopped quite quick from strikes, no 10 count to start again, in MMA Thats the end of the fight if a 10 count is deemed necessary.

Many Boxers have Died in the ring or in hospital after and in many of the fights the fighters knew they where in trouble and fought on, Nog while i feel made a mistake will be back to 100% in a few months, ref's commonly stop subs that are clearly not going to be escaped from just like in Boxing where a ref might stop a fight that the punishment is just unnecessary

One of the better posts I have ever read. Very clear and diplomatic.

I agree, boxing is more barbaric in the sense of prolonged danger. MMA, because it allows more ways to attack and inflict pain can be seen to be more barbaric. Paul, I believe you said it best a good while back; MMA is rougher, but boxing is tougher.

I am always one who welcomes measures brought in to make sports safer for its competitors. Call me a sissy, a compassion freak, I don't care. I hate to see injuries and suffereing that IMO could be prevented. I am well aware that some hurt and pain and injury cannot be prevented.

I know there is no perfect solution to my "gripe," and that refs do look out for the welfare of MMA fighters, but I would like to see stringent rules enforced for situations like the one that occurred the other night.

Sometimes it takes a bad incident to make a sport safer.

walshb · 20-12-2011 1:09pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

That is fair enough then, I would agree that both sports have a barbaric element (boxing much more so, in my opinion) but I'm not sure that a man's arm breaking in a freakish way proves that.

My issue is that the break was in a deliberate way, not freakish. It was not a freakish break. That the fighter was forced to inflict such an injury to get a win. That is what I think needs real looking at.

pablohoney87 · 20-12-2011 1:11pm

Tubbs4 wrote: »

Matt hughes gave up an arm bar on royce gracie as royce would not tap. Hughes did not want to break his arm so he just pounded him out.
If fighters like Nog will not tap and Mir gives up hold it be a sad day for MMA.
As lots of submissions will be removed from the sport leading to less ways fir a fighter to win.
While i hate to see limbs being broken, I hate to see less skill - submissions in MMA.

What Matt Hughes says in public carries absolutely no weight to me and a lot of others. Watch that fight. He tried to break Royces arm. His arm slid out of position and bent the right way and Matt thought it was broken so he let go. Nothing to with him not wanting to break the arm. (My theory anyway but its what it looked like)
What submissions exactly are gonna be removed from the sport exaxtly

cowzerp · 20-12-2011 1:18pm

walshb wrote: »

My issue is that the break was in a deliberate way, not freakish. That the fighter was forced to inflict such an injury to get a win. That is what I think needs real looking at.

It's worth noting Bren that Nog is 1 of the best submission artists in MMA ever and Mir had just been rocked, i think the ref wrongly thought he was ok and could escape, Nog looked so calm and not in pain-if this was a lesser Fighter then i'm sure the fight would have been stopped quicker.

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Shazbot · 20-12-2011 1:22pm

cowzerp wrote: »

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Interesting point, would you care to clarify what mistake you think the ref made? I thought there was nothing wrong with the refereeing in the fight.

walshb · 20-12-2011 1:28pm

cowzerp wrote: »

It's worth noting Bren that Nog is 1 of the best submission artists in MMA ever and Mir had just been rocked, i think the ref wrongly thought he was ok and could escape, Nog looked so calm and not in pain-if this was a lesser Fighter then i'm sure the fight would have been stopped quicker.

If there is a debate here it should be about the ref's mistake rather than the rules as the rules like in most sports are quite clear.

Thing is that I believe there is not a perfect solution. A fighter may still break an arm if he wants to. No mercy, compassion etc. Mir chose to break that arm because Nog would not submit. No way to 100 percent prevent even a deliberate break, as in, where a fighter knows he is going to break a limb.

pablohoney87 · 20-12-2011 1:28pm

Shazbot wrote: »

Interesting point, would you care to clarify what mistake you think the ref made? I thought there was nothing wrong with the refereeing in the fight.

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

walshb · 20-12-2011 1:30pm

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Its a referees job to step in when a fighter isnt defending himself. This applies to submissions as well as strikes.

Or refuses to defend himself....

pablohoney87 · 20-12-2011 1:34pm

walshb wrote: »

Or refuses to defend himself....

On that note.
Are you a boxer walshb or just a boxing fan?
Not a high and mighty question about your experience just asking if you were in a boxing match where youre opponent wasnt defending himself but the referee wasnt stopping it would you stop punching?

walshb · 20-12-2011 1:38pm

pablohoney87 wrote: »

On that note.
Are you a boxer walshb or just a boxing fan?
Not a high and mighty question about your experience just asking if you were in a boxing match where youre opponent wasnt defending himself but the referee wasnt stopping it would you stop punching?

Never been in that position. Many fighters thru history have looked to a ref to stop a bout.

Anyway,

in MMA is a fighter allowed to deliberately break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

I mean, can he go out, grab a limb and break it in a flash, should that scenario present itself?

cowzerp · 20-12-2011 1:40pm

walshb wrote: »

Never been in that position. Many fighters thru history have looked to a ref to stop a bout.

Anyway,

in MMA is a fighter allowed to break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

He had about 10 seconds to submit and chose not too, the pressure builds up and usually pain will increase to a level where your brain just says stop and you either tap verbally or with your hand. This was an isolated incident just like in Boxing where occasionally ya get a lad getting slaughtered and no 1 prevents it, ie the corner or ref.

pablohoney87 · 20-12-2011 1:43pm

walshb wrote: »

in MMA is a fighter allowed to deliberately break a limb without giving his foe the opportunity to submit?

Not really. The tensile strength of a bone is normally enough for the opportunity to tap. I found myself cringing at quite a few sumbissions before a break. If I have time to do that the fighter had time to tap.
Only situations are heel hooks and freak occurances where the fighter may not have had the opportunity to tap.

UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

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