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UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Look you threw the not understanding how I don't see your view at me and my response just highlights how silly that is-everyone could use that whenever there in disagreement and all decent debate would end.

    I did read the thread and it did read like you where been smart, im been called silly for comparing chuck etc but in reality in comparing success and there just. Names to make a point.

    Anyway im off to bed, goodnight

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Look you threw the not understanding how I don't see your view at me and my response just highlights how silly that is-everyone could use that whenever there in disagreement and all decent debate would end.

    No, not at all. Because, if you had stated that earlier in the thread you understood a phenomenon, there would be no need for me to question whether you understood or not, don't you agree?

    Also, I didn't say you didn't see my view, I said i didn't understand that you couldn't acknowledge the existence of the phenomenon whereby some people might now like someone on the basis of them being the best. I'm sure you know this exists and that's why i said i didn't understand why you were claiming it didn't. (But of course, if you don't think that this phenomenon exists, i'm open to correction).

    Picking out 2 exceptions doesn't prove anything. in fact, there were MANY Fedor detractors when he was at the top of his game.
    I did read the thread and it did read like you where been smart, in been called silly for comparing chuck etc but in reality in comparing success and there just. Names to make a point.
    Well if it helps i never meant to call YOU silly, just the sentiment that you would compare Jones to 2 of the most successful MMA fighters of all time.

    Again, I understand where people are coming from, but I think that because it's Jones people are singling him out. This POV is magnified by the fact that NOT ONE poster has addressed by question as to why this never happened to Tito when he left the choke on Bader, Dodson when TKOd Bedford and all of the numerous instances of when a fighter COULD'VE done things differently but didn't.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    You put forward the theory that he is disliked because he is successful and talented.

    Cowzerp has pointed out two examples where that isnt true meaning that cant be the whole story.


    Not being smart but I'm not sure what part of this isnt clear :)

    DeV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    DeVore wrote: »
    You put forward the theory that he is disliked because he is successful and talented.

    Cowzerp has pointed out two examples where that isnt true meaning that cant be the whole story.


    Not being smart but I'm not sure what part of this isnt clear :)

    DeV.

    And your point is what exactly?

    I never said it was the "whole story" as you pointed out. On multiple occasions i've said that his actions might be EXAGGERATED because of this. I never once said he gets flack ONLY because he is talented.

    Also, nowhere did I say that ALL fighters are hated because they are successful and pointing out 2 examples proves nothng. Just like if I pointed out examples of other fighters who WERE hated because they were talented, it would do nothing to say the opposite.

    Again, i'll make myself clear. Some people hate irrationally and in the case of sport someone's talent and success can attract this kind of hate.

    I'm presuming this post from earlier in the thread is you confirming that some people DO hate Jones because he is talented correct?
    DeVore wrote: »
    Just because people hate him because he's talented, doesn't mean the other criticisms of him aren't valid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭Mr. Loverman


    Who cares?

    Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives. :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Who cares?

    Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives. :)

    Everytime I mentally read your username it goes like this "Mr.Loverman.. SHABBA!"

    I can't help it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭RebelSoul


    Who cares?

    Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives. :)

    Carlsberg don't do sensible internet posts but if they did..... :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Been talented makes them more famous and more in the spotlight, so when they do bad stuff or fight boring it is more public, there is Tons of boring fighters and others who do nasty stuff, but like football, no one wants to talk about 2nd division players, I think I'm beating a dead horse here but been famous/talented has them fighting main events but there is underlying reasons why they may be disliked, Frankie Edgar seems universally liked too as does dos santos who don't really give you any reason to dislike them, except talent that is :)

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Been talented makes them more famous and more in the spotlight, so when they do bad stuff or fight boring it is more public, there is Tons of boring fighters and others who do nasty stuff, but like football, no one wants to talk about 2nd division players, I think I'm beating a dead horse here but been famous/talented has them fighting main events but there is underlying reasons why they may be disliked, Frankie Edgar seems universally liked too as does dos santos who don't really give you any reason to dislike them, except talent that is :)

    It's like you're agreeing with me but you just don't know it :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    It's like you're agreeing with me but you just don't know it :pac:

    OK That's what i'm doing :D

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭Jason McCabe


    I like big bones think he is one of the most talented and exciting fighters that I've ever seen

    I just was not impressed with his lack of regard for his opponent

    Do I still like him, yes. Though a little black tick went against his name


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    I like big bones...

    Whatever you're into! :pac: :D


    Jones does himself no favours by the way he acts lately. There's a fine line between being cocky and being arrogant and I think he's crossed it. The Machida fight only made things worse for him and he seems to be losing fans at a fast rate.

    I think his arrogance and his treatment of Machida are the main reasons why people dislike him. Plus the way he goes on about inner peace and enlightenment and all that stuff can get irritating.

    But I do think there is also an aspect of hating him for his talent. Usually in fighting sports, some people tend to dislike a fighter who makes an astoundingly fast rise to the top (like Jones did). I don't know whether it's jealousy or the fact that this young nobody is coming in from nowhere and destroying their idols, but it does happen.
    They're always waiting for the next fight when they're sure he'll be beaten and proven to be the fraud they suspect him to be. They then put up the argument that he wouldn't have a hope against the old boys when they were in their prime. You can never win an argument against the haters.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    But I *dont* hope he's beaten.


    What I *hope* is that he cops on!
    He could be the greatest champ ever *and* a great ambassador.

    DeV.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    DeVore wrote: »
    But I *dont* hope he's beaten.


    What I *hope* is that he cops on!
    He could be the greatest champ ever *and* a great ambassador.

    DeV.

    He was certainly shaping up to be a great asset for the UFC and he could also be a fantastic champ if he did cop on.
    Thing is though, it might take a good hiding for him to cop on, but there doesn't seem to be anyone at 205 at the minute that's capable of that.
    He's buying into his own hype and it could well be his downfall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭themandan6611


    Jones is a beast, 1st round he sussed Machida out, 2nd he had him marked and broke him, as for letting him drop, mmmm no big deal in the Jones story, for those who have ever heard him speak he seems like a nice guy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

    My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 636 ✭✭✭pauldoo


    walshb wrote: »
    I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

    My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

    whats the alternative, mir should stop and say "i might break his arm" and then the ref declare mir the winner? if anyone is to blame, its nog. You cant just stop when you have someone in a bad place, look at GSP v Hardy, GSP looked like he was goin to break hardys arm on 3 occasions(i think) but hardy escaped each time


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,001 ✭✭✭Mr. Loverman


    walshb wrote: »
    I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

    My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

    When a submission is taking place, the fighter on the receiving end has to tap out when he wants it to stop. This is the rule and every fighter understands it.

    Nog is responsible for Nog. Mir should not be held responsible for Nog's behaviour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    When a submission is taking place, the fighter on the receiving end has to tap out when he wants it to stop. This is the rule and every fighter understands it.

    Nog is responsible for Nog. Mir should not be held responsible for Nog's behaviour.

    Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,476 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    walshb wrote: »
    Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

    If the ref sees a broken limb he will stop it any way, won't make any difference to what you're saying.

    Actually, the ref can stop the fight if the fighter shouts in pain too loudly but it is fairly controversial. Shane Roller lost to TJ Grant in this way by basically grunting too loud in an attempted arm bar. This is explained to the fighters before hand.

    Nog knew the score and was too proud to tap. I've heard he has got criticism in Brazil for not tapping earlier.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭nino1


    walshb wrote: »
    Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

    nog made the decision not to tap, end of story. It's not up to mir to give up the win due to nog's stuborness. a broken arm isn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bones heal and he will be back training in 6 months.
    again, his decision not to tap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭chickendinner


    walshb wrote: »
    Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

    If you dont like the idea of his arm being broke

    this sport isnt for you.



    Why dont you watch this video of Frank Mir.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭horsemeat


    pauldoo wrote: »
    whats the alternative, mir should stop and say "i might break his arm" and then the ref declare mir the winner? if anyone is to blame, its nog. You cant just stop when you have someone in a bad place, look at GSP v Hardy, GSP looked like he was goin to break hardys arm on 3 occasions(i think) but hardy escaped each time


    wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    If you dont like the idea of his arm being broke

    this sport isnt for you.



    Why dont you watch this video of Frank Mir.

    Therein lies the problem; if folks are okay with arms being deliberately broken as all part of the sport, then really, is it a sport?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    nino1 wrote: »
    nog made the decision not to tap, end of story. It's not up to mir to give up the win due to nog's stuborness. a broken arm isn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bones heal and he will be back training in 6 months.
    again, his decision not to tap.


    Isn't serious? All breaks equal, are they? It is serious when a man deliberately chooses to inflict that type of pain and injury onto another human being.

    I know accidents/injury can occur in any combat sport. But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it. Won't tap, **** him, I am breaking his arm?

    I am also aware that the sport is about physical contact and that involves pain. But, what that guy did crossed the line into barbarism. He chose to cause serious pain to a man who needed someone protecting him. All to get a win beside his name?


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭chickendinner


    walshb wrote: »
    Therein lies the problem; if folks are okay with arms being deliberately broken as all part of the sport, then really, is it a sport?

    In boxing, brain damage occurs, what are you getting at.
    Lets all play tiddlywinks.

    Are you a big troll?

    Nog had ample time to tap. He did not. That is on him.

    Fighters going for submissions with a conscience, sets a dangerous precedent for fighters never tapping out.

    Watch the video.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    In boxing, brain damage occurs, what are you getting at.
    Lets all play tiddlywinks.

    Are you a big troll?

    Nog had ample time to tap. He did not. That is on him.

    Fighters going for submissions with a conscience, sets a dangerous precendent for fighters never tapping out.

    Watch the video.


    I'm out. Anyone who comes out with the troll card because of a disagreement doesn't deserve a reply.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Fear Uladh


    walshb wrote: »
    But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it.

    FFS.

    Why don't they just get padded up and have a few pillow fights then?:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Fear Uladh wrote: »
    FFS.

    Why don't they just get padded up and have a few pillow fights then?:rolleyes:

    Bit extreme that, eh?

    Read what I write, please.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    horsemeat wrote: »
    wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

    This is what I admire. I love boxing, but I abhore violence. I also admire a man who can show compassion. I know in MMA and boxing this is difficult to do, I know this, but it does not mean that I excuse every instance as "just part of the sport."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Shazbot


    walshb wrote: »
    Isn't serious? All breaks equal, are they? It is serious when a man deliberately chooses to inflict that type of pain and injury onto another human being.

    Are you serious? The whole point of the sport is to beat your opponent. In a very broad sense this mean you have to incapacitate him. Every fighter needs to go out there and hurt their opponent. No one wants to purposally injure their opponent but sometimes it happens.

    But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it. Won't tap, **** him, I am breaking his arm?
    Again, delivering pain goes hand in hand with the sport. Every strike/submission will hurt, that's the point. If a fighter refuses to tap to a submission then it's on themselves. Bare in mind, Nogueira never gave out about Mir.
    Maybe Big Nog wasn't aware it was going to break either. The humerus fractured at the midpoint down towards the elbow. Traditionally a kimura attacks the roator cuff of the shoulder. He probably felt no need to tap because he felt no pain at the shoulder and then the humerus snapped. It would be hard to detect pain on a stressed bone.

    But, what that guy did crossed the line into barbarism. He chose to cause serious pain to a man who needed someone protecting him. All to get a win beside his name?
    No one likes to see a broken limb in any sport but to call it barbarism is sensationalising the situation. Mir put on the submission, Noguira didn't tap so he continued to crank it. I'm not a big Mir fan andI don't like the way he was talking about it afterwards but I have no bad feelings toward him for what he did.

    As the old phrase goes, tap or snap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    walshb wrote: »
    I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

    My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

    Lol!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    horsemeat wrote: »
    wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

    Wrong.

    GSP didn't finish the subs (Especially the arm-bar) because his technique was wrong. If you rewatch the event, GSP is seen in the locker-room being shown the mistake he made by Greg Jackson and is shown working on his technique.

    Bit of info here if you're interested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,685 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    walshb wrote: »
    I'm out. Anyone who comes out with the troll card because of a disagreement doesn't deserve a reply.
    I don't think you are trolling, but your point has no weight.
    What was Mir supposed to do when Nog won't tap. Release it? Hold on to it but hold back a little force?

    Are you an MMA fan, or a boxing fan catches the occasional MMA fight. Not trying to insult you or anything, but the comments sound a little naive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Mir had every right to break Nogs arm. I'm sure he didn't want to break it but he was left with no option but to push the submission further as Nog refused to tap. It's Nogs fault his arm broke. If Mir had set out to break his arm he would've ripped it off straight away instead of pulling on the sub gradually.

    Saying he was wrong to do it just shows a lack of knowledge or understanding of the sport. If Mir had've let off the submission because he didn't want to do damage to Nog then there's every chance Nog would've thought all his christmasses came at once and he would've turned around and smashed Mirs face in.

    Walshb I don't really post in the boxing forum but I lurk around it quite a bit and I generally agree with most of the stuff you post but you're wrong on this point. I'm not sure how much you know about the sport but maybe you should watch/read a bit more about it so you have a full understanding of it.
    Again I don't mean this as an insult at all, I'm just trying to understand why you don't seem to realise it's not Mir's fault what happened. And I'm sure Nog holds no bad feelings over the incident either.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭nino1


    walshb wrote: »
    . I love boxing, but I abhore violence. ."

    so boxing is okay where you can get repeated blows to the head for 12 rounds but getting your arm broke is barbaric.

    as an old man in your eighties you will be much better off having had your arms broke once or twice rather than turning out like muhammed ali or michael watson from repeated blows to the head for 12-15 round fights.


  • Registered Users Posts: 636 ✭✭✭pauldoo


    walshb wrote: »
    horsemeat wrote: »
    wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

    This is what I admire. I love boxing, but I abhore violence. I also admire a man who can show compassion. I know in MMA and boxing this is difficult to do, I know this, but it does not mean that I excuse every instance as "just part of the sport."

    that is absolute crap,gsp didn't show compassion,hardy escaped at least one,and gsp let the others go,he didn't finish the fight cause he couldn't


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Tubbs4


    Matt hughes gave up an arm bar on royce gracie as royce would not tap. Hughes did not want to break his arm so he just pounded him out.
    If fighters like Nog will not tap and Mir gives up hold it be a sad day for MMA.
    As lots of submissions will be removed from the sport leading to less ways fir a fighter to win.
    While i hate to see limbs being broken, I hate to see less skill - submissions in MMA.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,604 ✭✭✭dave1982


    it-s-nap-snap-tap-time-mma-t-shirt-choiceshirts-1.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,679 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    walshbb, if you were Mir and had Nog in a kimura and he wasn't tapping, what exactly would you do?

    Please just answer without using the word 'compassion'


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,261 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Lads, I have no idea why anyone is bothering.

    Walsh, again I float around the Boxing forum and I actually agree with you a lot (Even if for some reason a lot of people seem to have something against you over there).

    But your points show you're talking about something you have absolutely no understanding of. I am very surprised people are even arguing with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Who has something against me over there? Is disagreeing from time to time now meaning "something against someone?"

    No understanding of what, exactly? I am well aware the sport is combat, physical, tough and dangerous.
    I am simply questioning the rules and protection available in the sport. So, what makes you understand all this and me not?

    As for the arm issue. Surely the ref or someone can halt a bout BEFORE a man has to deliberately break an arm? That is all I am saying here. No big deal. Why is that if someones questions an action or disagress with a majority view that folks get so sensitive? So, I happen to think that what happened to Nog was terrible and should be outlawed/prevented when possible, shoot me for showing some kind of concern for a man's welfare.

    If the foe won't tap out for whatever reason, pride, stupidity, he can't speak etc, surely these people need protecting? Just like a boxer who refuses to quit. The excuse that "he wouldn't quit or tap" just doesn't cut it. The man suffered a very painful injury that should have been prevented by protectors.

    BTW, I assume a verbal submission is allowed? If a person cannot physically tap out, he can verbally quit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭Shazbot


    walshb wrote: »
    .

    BTW, I assume a verbal submission is allowed? If a person cannot physically tap out, he can verbally quit?

    Of course they can. The can yell "tap" or "stop" and the ref will stop it. Even if you grunt or scream during a submission the ref can stop it as it is deemed a verbal submission.

    As I said before, he probably didn't know it was going to break at the humerus as it is traditionally a shoulder lock. He tapped after the break but it was clearly too late.
    If the foe won't tap out for whatever reason, pride, stupidity, he can't speak etc, surely these people need protecting? Just like a boxer who refuses to quit.
    That's the job of the ref. Referees will often step in during a barrage of punches to stop fights for the safety of the fighter on the receiving end from himself. So what you want to see happen does occur but it is much more difficult to do this during a submission as the ref has no way of knowing when a bone is going to break. When Mir broke Tim Silvias arm with an armbar Silvia wanted to continue but the referee rightly stopped the fight. Sylvia protested the stoppage at the time but later thanked Herb Dean for the intervention.
    The excuse that "he wouldn't quit or tap" just doen't cut it. The man suffered a very painful injury that should have been prevented by protectors.

    The referee is there to protect fighters but they can't tell when a limb is going to break. That responsibility is on the fighter. Noguira has been training BJJ for nearly 20 years so he knows the consequences of not tapping. As I said before, he probably had no idea the humerus would break.

    How exactly would you protect someone from themselves during a submission?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Shazbot wrote: »
    Of course they can. The can yell "tap" or "stop" and the ref will stop it. Even if you grunt or scream during a submission the ref can stop it as it is deemed a verbal submission.

    As I said before, he probably didn't know it was going to break at the humerus as it is traditionally a shoulder lock. He tapped after the break but it was clearly too late.


    That's the job of the ref. Referees will often step in during a barrage of punches to stop fights for the safety of the fighter on the receiving end from himself. So what you want to see happen does occur but it is much more difficult to do this during a submission as the ref has no way of knowing when a bone is going to break. When Mir broke Tim Silvias arm with an armbar Silvia wanted to continue but the referee rightly stopped the fight. Sylvia protested the stoppage at the time but later thanked Herb Dean for the intervention.



    The referee is there to protect fighters but they can't tell when a limb is going to break. That responsibility is on the fighter. Noguira has been training BJJ for nearly 20 years so he knows the consequences of not tapping. As I said before, he probably had no idea the humerus would break.

    How exactly would you protect someone from themselves during a submission?

    Well, at least we get a mature and civil and detailed reply. Maybe, just a suggestion here, a referee and fighter can work together. A fighter should be made tell a referee that there is a high possibility that he is going to break a limb if the fighter will not quit. The referee assesses, and then halts the bout.

    Theoretically I suppose one could say that not the ref, or fighters can 100 percent know if a limb will break until it actually does. That is why maybe rules need to be revisited. If a fighter won't tap because of reasons I gave then the ref should take over


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fall_Guy


    The arm break was very unfortunate, but as has been already said, this was quite an unusual situation as it is very rare that a kimura leads to a break like this. I don;t really like Mir's "tap or snap" mentality, but at the end of the day a fighter should (and usually does) have the sense / lack of ego to accept when they are in a position where they should tap. This is the very rare exception.

    But I'm not sure why walshb is suggesting that this makes mma somehow barbaric, or worse than boxing. In this Danny Williams fight his shoulder clearly pops out and the ref LETS the fight continue. Now, granted, he miraculously pulls out the win and a seperation / dislocation does not compare to a broken humerus, but I wouldn't exactly call that exemplary work on the part of the "protectors" in this case?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Fall_Guy wrote: »
    The arm break was very unfortunate, but as has been already said, this was quite an unusual situation as it is very rare that a kimura leads to a break like this. I don;t really like Mir's "tap or snap" mentality, but at the end of the day a fighter should (and usually does) have the sense / lack of ego to accept when they are in a position where they should tap. This is the very rare exception.

    But I'm not sure why walshb is suggesting that this makes mma somehow barbaric, or worse than boxing. In this Danny Williams fight his shoulder clearly pops out and the ref LETS the fight continue. Now, granted, he miraculously pulls out the win and a seperation / dislocation does not compare to a broken humerus, but I wouldn't exactly call that exemplary work on the part of the "protectors" in this case?


    Boxing too can be barbaric. I love the sport, but I am not one who thinks both sports are somehow beyond criticism.

    Boxing is littered with examples of barbarity. Just look at Wayne McCullough who was sent out round after round against Scott Harrison. His wife was his manger. And, the excuse, that "he didn't want to quit" is pathetic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fall_Guy


    walshb wrote: »
    Boxing too can be barbaric. I love the sport, but I am not one who thinks both sports are somehow beyond criticism.

    Boxing is littered with examples of barbarity. Just look at Wayne McCullough who was sent out round after round against Scott Harrison. His wife was his manger. And, the excuse, that "he didn't want to quit" is pathetic.

    That is fair enough then, I would agree that both sports have a barbaric element (boxing much more so, in my opinion) but I'm not sure that a man's arm breaking in a freakish way proves that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Are you a big troll?

    Read the charter and next time be ready for a ban.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Walsh, again I float around the Boxing forum and I actually agree with you a lot (Even if for some reason a lot of people seem to have something against you over there).

    There would be 1 or 2 lads who may have opposing view of Walshb over there but they would not have a problem with him, without some debate forums like this don't tend to work so it's all good.

    with that said

    Boxing is far more Barbaric than MMA, i have no doubts about that-the pounding a boxer can take in a 12 round fight is unreal, in a severe round of Boxing there would be more head blows landed than in a 5 round MMA fight where fights get stopped quite quick from strikes, no 10 count to start again, in MMA Thats the end of the fight if a 10 count is deemed necessary.

    Many Boxers have Died in the ring or in hospital after and in many of the fights the fighters knew they where in trouble and fought on, Nog while i feel made a mistake will be back to 100% in a few months, ref's commonly stop subs that are clearly not going to be escaped from just like in Boxing where a ref might stop a fight that the punishment is just unnecessary

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Read the charter and next time be ready for a ban.



    There would be 1 or 2 lads who may have opposing view of Walshb over there but they would not have a problem with him, without some debate forums like this don't tend to work so it's all good.

    with that said

    Boxing is far more Barbaric than MMA, i have no doubts about that-the pounding a boxer can take in a 12 round fight is unreal, in a severe round of Boxing there would be more head blows landed than in a 5 round MMA fight where fights get stopped quite quick from strikes, no 10 count to start again, in MMA Thats the end of the fight if a 10 count is deemed necessary.

    Many Boxers have Died in the ring or in hospital after and in many of the fights the fighters knew they where in trouble and fought on, Nog while i feel made a mistake will be back to 100% in a few months, ref's commonly stop subs that are clearly not going to be escaped from just like in Boxing where a ref might stop a fight that the punishment is just unnecessary

    One of the better posts I have ever read. Very clear and diplomatic.

    I agree, boxing is more barbaric in the sense of prolonged danger. MMA, because it allows more ways to attack and inflict pain can be seen to be more barbaric. Paul, I believe you said it best a good while back; MMA is rougher, but boxing is tougher.

    I am always one who welcomes measures brought in to make sports safer for its competitors. Call me a sissy, a compassion freak, I don't care. I hate to see injuries and suffereing that IMO could be prevented. I am well aware that some hurt and pain and injury cannot be prevented.

    I know there is no perfect solution to my "gripe," and that refs do look out for the welfare of MMA fighters, but I would like to see stringent rules enforced for situations like the one that occurred the other night.

    Sometimes it takes a bad incident to make a sport safer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,868 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Fall_Guy wrote: »
    That is fair enough then, I would agree that both sports have a barbaric element (boxing much more so, in my opinion) but I'm not sure that a man's arm breaking in a freakish way proves that.

    My issue is that the break was in a deliberate way, not freakish. It was not a freakish break. That the fighter was forced to inflict such an injury to get a win. That is what I think needs real looking at.


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