Sub nine or bust

twonpelota · 27-09-2011 10:28am #1

Aim for the stars and you'll probably fall flat on your face, but you never know - you might, just might, achieve those goals.

Roth 8:55
Barcelona 8:55

Big goals. Even bigger coming from an 11 hour IM man. Just over two hours off my time. Can it be done? Who knows? I do know though that I want to find out.

I'm not silly enough to think I can do this on my own so I'm working with a Boardsie on achieving these goals. I believe he works with one or two other Boardsies. I told him what I wanted to do. He laughed. Then he realised I was serious. He laughed some more. We then talked a bit. I tried to justify why it might be possible. He stopped laughing and said that it wasn't likely but wasn't beyond the realms of possibility. He agreed to work with me on it until December 6th. If by that date I've not hit 3 of 4 agreed goals we call it quits and go our separate ways - so not to waste his time or mine. The goals have hammered home the work required and how unlikely it is that I can achieve this goal but I'm willing to try.
Three of the four goals have to have been hit by December 6th and all four by 31st December or we give up on it. Why December 6th - well entry to Roth reopens on 6th December

Goals by 31st December

Swimming - 400m TT
5:59 (presently 6:59)

Biking - average power 20 minute TT
310 watts (presently 210 watts)

Running - 10km road race
33:00 (presently 43:00)

Body composition
10% bf (presently 18%)

Absolutely fecking huge jumps. Possible, I'll tell ya in December

shels4ever · 27-09-2011 10:35am

I though this was going to be a 3000m log at first

.

Best of luck with your IM nice target your setting and nice pb's .

couerdelion · 27-09-2011 10:44am

They're some pretty big leaps in performance in just over two months.

I'll enjoy reading this and I wish you the best of luck in your quest!

catweazle · 27-09-2011 10:45am

I will be looking at the training for these goals closely if you update the log regularly, I have no idea of my cycling power wattage but I would be similar to you on your current swimming and running times and I could never imagine pulling those times off ever let alone in a few months

Good luck with the training

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 27-09-2011 11:43am

I thought i set stretched and challenging goals:eek: The running target is by far the biggest stretch (near impossible) in such a short space of time essentially going from 4:18km pace to 3:18km pace in 10 weeks!! Not sure what work would be involved in increasing your FTP by 100 watts (47%) but it sounds like a huge ask and normally you would be doing well to improve by 20% over a full season of focussed training.

Any way best of luck as I do not want it to sound all negatitive but this is a huge ask. I will follow with interest as i am also doing Roth for next year.

pgibbo · 27-09-2011 11:47am

A Lance wannabe? If real best of luck with your goals as they are damn impressive times!

BobMac104 · 27-09-2011 11:53am

Holy crap they are big jumps but fair play. Best of luck man!

Abhainn · 27-09-2011 2:16pm

Ok first of all best of luck.
Second I'm amazed by those targets.
But perhaps you are coming back from a long lay off?
If not that 10 min 10k run improvement is one hell of a day dream.

twonpelota · 27-09-2011 2:52pm

Under no illusion of the work required. It will be a journey. Whether the destination is where I want it to be or not who knows.

shotgunmcos · 27-09-2011 4:59pm

My my my a sub 9 IM log for us to feast on eh

Genius troll, but it crossed the boundries to personally insult instead of just wind up the community. Tut tut

RacoonQueen · 27-09-2011 5:10pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

My my my a sub 9 IM log for us to feast on eh

Genius troll, but it crossed the boundries to personally insult instead of just wind up the community. Tut tut

Screamed troll at me when I saw it in the IM 2012 thread earlier. I just put it down to my being cynical!

Notwitch · 28-09-2011 8:23am

Let's not pour abuse on the guy.

Maybe he just spent a year on the sofa getting fat and slow?

If it's a troll it'll fall flat quickly. I'm going with best of luck - i'd love to see you succeed.

It would be great to see a rough outline of structure for the next 3 months - or even what a basic week might look like?

Good luck and here's to a quality log!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 28-09-2011 9:58am

What IM did you complete in 11 hours?

twonpelota · 28-09-2011 3:51pm

shels4ever wrote: »

I though this was going to be a 3000m log at first .

sub 9 3km - i wish. never in a month of sundays

Hadlee Sticky Pantry wrote: »

I thought i set stretched and challenging goals:eek: The running target is by far the biggest stretch (near impossible) in such a short space of time essentially going from 4:18km pace to 3:18km pace in 10 weeks!! Not sure what work would be involved in increasing your FTP by 100 watts (47%) but it sounds like a huge ask and normally you would be doing well to improve by 20% over a full season of focussed training.

I'd see the biking as the bigger ask to be honest

pgibbo wrote: »

A Lance wannabe? If real best of luck with your goals as they are damn impressive times!

Nah I've got more balls.

Abhainn wrote: »

Ok first of all best of luck.
Second I'm amazed by those targets.
But perhaps you are coming back from a long lay off?
If not that 10 min 10k run improvement is one hell of a day dream.

You're only as good as your last race.

Hadlee Sticky Pantry wrote: »

What IM did you complete in 11 hours?

One traditionally considered fast.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Genius troll, but it crossed the boundries to personally insult instead of just wind up the community. Tut tut

That was never my intention and to be honest based on this alone I'm rethinking the blog. I may let it die as that is something I don't want

Notwitch wrote: »

It would be great to see a rough outline of structure for the next 3 months - or even what a basic week might look like?

Next three months.

Swimming: Time in the water. 7-10km a week is the goal. I know due to a scheduled surgery I will be out of the water for a month. This is the biggest threat to the swimming goal. When in the water the focus will be body position, finishing my stroke, feel for the water and strength work. Learning to tumble too should be worth 2 seconds per 100.

Running: Hills, core work, volume. Weight loss. Will lose some sessions after the surgery but should get them back sooner than the swimming. minimum 5 sessions a week, max 16 sessions I think

Biking: Strength work, Sweet spot training (2x20 @ FTP, 45 @ 95% FTP), Bill Blacks Hour of Power, some prayer. 3-4 sessions a week. More after the surgery to be honest.

In all honesty I don't think I will hit the goals. The work required and the shape I am in means it will probably break me to be honest - injury or illness. Still I want to try. I'm not wasting time away from family and other activities if I can't get sub 9. I'd prefer to go short and have a laugh.

twonpelota · 29-09-2011 8:48am

Following some PMs with mods I'm going to give a little more history and background.

I described myself as an 11 hour IMer. When the idea of sub nine for Roth came into my head I mentioned it to a friend. a 9:20 IMer (multiple) and a 9:30 in Kona. Not Irish so no point in trawling results to get a connection. I said "Of course its possible Ted, its only 0:xx of my time". The response was swift and brutal. "Twon, that was years ago. You are not hat person now. You've taken a few years off. You are only as good as your last race and that was 11 hours. You are an 11 hour IMer at the moment."

So some more history.

I've gone sub ten. I've run 33 for a 10km. My FTP has been over 300 watts. I've run sub three marathons and biked < 5:00 for 180km (albeit not combined). I've swam 6:15 400m TTs.

But this is all long long ago. I know where I need to be. I know whats required to get there.

I was being honest with myself when I put down the times I am capable of now. Thats where I am now

Like I said I will know in my heart in December if I am on the path that I need to be on. If I am I will continue on that path, come clean with the wife, if not I will drop it, move on and be happy that I tried but its just not in me.

Izoard · 29-09-2011 8:57am

Good luck with it...with those numbers it is certainly possible with the right application.

Just one point..what is the purpose of posting the log?

As you can gather from the responses, there is some frustration with your reticence on fairly standard questions.

If the primary intent is to seek advice, I think you will struggle with the style of communication to date...if it is to let us know what it takes to (hopefully) do sub-9, then fair enough.

twonpelota · 29-09-2011 9:05am

Izoard wrote: »

Good luck with it...with those numbers it is certainly possible with the right application.

Just one point..what is the purpose of posting the log?

As you can gather from the responses, there is some frustration with your reticence on fairly standard questions.

If the primary intent is to seek advice, I think you will struggle with the style of communication to date...if it is to let us know what it takes to (hopefully) do sub-9, then fair enough.

Advice, support. Its not going to be easy. I've no support structure in place. A b!tch and a moan and some encouraging words was the hope.

I'll answer most questions.

But you are right. I don't think this is going to work (either the blog or the attempt)

shotgunmcos · 29-09-2011 9:19am

Hey don't let us cynics put you off Chief, go for it! Cheers for the background at least it gives some realistic perspective.

It was just unusual to have some one pop along with a sub9 blog (in light of one of our regular historic trolls) as their first post, and to learn how to multiquote so soon

Best of luck twonpelota

Oryx · 29-09-2011 9:30am

You would get more advice and support if you were clearer about where you have come from and didn't appear to be hiding something. Thats why youre being misunderstood. Also. Ya don't announce and then give up in two days. It just doesn't make sense.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 29-09-2011 10:48am

At least your background gives what you are trying to achieve some more credibility.

twonpelota · 29-09-2011 2:50pm

Plan for next week

I've a little more time to play with next week on the Thursday and Friday so........

Three swims, about 8km. Mix of speed, endurance and strength. Strength work will be a mix of paddles, band and buoy, band, buoy and paddles, and band only. Speed work - mix of 25s, 50s and 100s

Seven runs. One "fast session" but thats really more of a neuromusclar thing. Two strength runs (reps on a 15% hill), three easy runs, one long run 1:30

Five bikes. Two strength sessions (turbo based), one speed session (turbo based). One 2.5 hour ride with sprints, one 6 hour ride. 6 hour ride is the exception and not the rule and is me taking advantage of free time. Speed session looks easy on first glance but on closer inspection I suspect I will puke.

I'd imagine a "normal" week would only have the one strength run, one strength bike and certainly not a 6 hour ride (yet).

The rest of this week should be interesting. Long run Sunday (1:30 and around 19km), bike and run Sunday (not as a brick). Swim tomorrow but the real fun is a 5km running TT to be done tomorrow night. Doing this with someone from the club. We run at lunch together and I know that we are running around the same pace when running easy. We know each other well and have a strange relationship. We get on well some of the time but more often than not are at each others throats. Half the time he pretends I don't exist. But we still would say we get on, if you know what I mean. He is one of the people advising on what I should do in training. Given this "interesting" relationship its safe to say that we will both bury ourselves other tomorrow night and leave nothing out there. A nice course picked, repeatible and sheltered although not flat (picked by him, beside his house). I'd be happy with 21 minutes but suspect closer to 22:45.

twonpelota · 03-10-2011 2:46pm

Not a great weekends training. Something came up so I missed a swim, long run and long bike. Being honest something came up and I missed my swim. I was lazy for the long bike and hungover for the long run. Alcohol - the solution to, and cause of, all of lifes problems.

Got the 5km TT in though. Had a chat with my nemesis and we agreed that if this relationship was to work then we had to check our egos at the the door and do the TT as a TT and not a race and we went off separately*. 19:24. Better than expected but alot of work to do. Got smacked by him anyways.

*What actually happened was "its not a fcvking race Twon, its a TT to baseline where we are. Pi$$ of we are going off 5 minutes apart". Fair point.

shotgunmcos · 03-10-2011 3:13pm

Reverse the starting order for the next one and set a reasonable spread time.

Quick question, what kind of splits would you envisage needing to hit sub9?

twonpelota · 03-10-2011 3:17pm

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Reverse the starting order for the next one and ste a reasonable spread time.

Quick question, what kind of splits would you envisage needing to hit sub9?

Swim 0:58
T1 0:03
Bike 4:44 (estimated 260 average power based on my race weight and position)
T2 0:03
Run 3:05

Total 8:55

Izoard · 03-10-2011 3:28pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Advice, support. Its not going to be easy. I've no support structure in place. A b!tch and a moan and some encouraging words was the hope.

I'll answer most questions.

But you are right. I don't think this is going to work (either the blog or the attempt)

Well, just link to your blog over on the tri site - will make it easier for everybody....

Notwitch · 03-10-2011 3:32pm

A 260 watt average. Would that mean you're targeting a 20 min TT power > 350 by April?

twonpelota · 03-10-2011 3:42pm

Notwitch wrote: »

A 260 watt average. Would that mean you're targeting a 20 min TT power > 350 by April?

No - thankfully not required to be quite that high. 320 should do it

I'm told 75% of FTP for IM is a guideline not the rule and I think around 80% is closer to the mark for me

ecoli · 03-10-2011 3:45pm

Hey twonpelota

I admit not well up on Tri or IM training but in last 18 months have popped in and out of the Tri training of a few I know (though mostly look towards their run specific training)

Can I ask what your 5k pb is? I can imagine that given IM training your shorter times do not entirely correlate with your the longer times?

I only ask because helps me get a better understanding of where you are at the moment as I can imagine if I am right that your 19.24 would be closer to a 40 min 10k fitness than most posters of a more running basis on here

Would you do time trials regularly as a base line as opposed to races or sessions to indicate your fitness?

twonpelota · 03-10-2011 4:03pm

ecoli wrote: »

Hey twonpelota

I admit not well up on Tri or IM training but in last 18 months have popped in and out of the Tri training of a few I know (though mostly look towards their run specific training)

Can I ask what your 5k pb is? I can imagine that given IM training your shorter times do not entirely correlate with your the longer times?

I only ask because helps me get a better understanding of where you are at the moment as I can imagine if I am right that your 19.24 would be closer to a 40 min 10k fitness than most posters of a more running basis on here

Would you do time trials regularly as a base line as opposed to races or sessions to indicate your fitness?

Not raced that many 5ks over the years, prefer 10km as I never had the speed for 5km. Best actual race was 17:29. However went through 5km in a 10km in 16:30.

Other PBs would be 56 for a rolling 10 miler and I've never raced a straight half marathon.

Regarding the 40min 10k - yes I think if I had to do it tomorrow I could dip under 40 for a 10km

For the run to gauge fitness I would do different things. I'm out of touch with my body at the minute (as a 22:30 estimate for a 5km TT versus low 19s shows) so TTs are good.

I like the TT format and I like the pain and I have good routes near me so 5km TTs work. Don't think I'd go over 10km for a TT effort to be honest. When "fit" I'd do a HR capped run on a flat, windless course and the average pace for that gives me a good idea of my IM pace.

Fazz · 03-10-2011 4:14pm

Interesting blog.

Bet of luck with the venture.. you make my goals seem easy peasy!

I'd also see the Running as the hardest goal, but good that you are better than estimated based on your recent 5k test.
I'm close to your times and have a goal of about 50% of your improvement by Xmas.
Injury free has to be the priority to come close I'd say.

2 questions:

1 - why are you still boozing? To me that really takes from your approach/dedication/seriousness?

2 - how many hours per week can you Realistically train for this that you think you can achieve your goals with ?

twonpelota · 04-10-2011 2:51pm

Fazz wrote: »

Interesting blog.

Bet of luck with the venture.. you make my goals seem easy peasy!

I'd also see the Running as the hardest goal, but good that you are better than estimated based on your recent 5k test.
I'm close to your times and have a goal of about 50% of your improvement by Xmas.
Injury free has to be the priority to come close I'd say.

Cursing myself but I'm pretty robust and have over the last few years discovered that I can handling volume well.

Fazz wrote: »

2 questions:

1 - why are you still boozing? To me that really takes from your approach/dedication/seriousness?

Boozing is perhaps too harsh a word. Bottle of wine opened to be shared, albeit she was only having half a glass. I intended only having two glasses. Finished the bottle. I *could* have trained anyways but as you say my dedication is somewhat lacking still. Much improved but more to go.

Fazz wrote: »

2 - how many hours per week can you Realistically train for this that you think you can achieve your goals with ?

I don't think the immediate goals are volume dependent. Volume will help, particularly the running. However I don't have the time to do 100 miles running a week anymore on top of the rest so its going to be a balance of volume and intensity.

Biking its anything but volume. Intensity. Hard interval sessions (expect to puke tonight), 2x20 at FTP, BG, HoPs, T-Max intervals and more. I'm good at suffering and suffering is what will do it.

Hours wise I can commit to on a regular basis 15.

Fazz · 04-10-2011 3:18pm

Well fair play to all that.

You've obviously been close before so hopefully
Muscle and endurance memory kicks in and helps you achieve your goals.

Defo a hard challenge, but fortune favours the brave and a can do attitude.

Go for it. And lay off the wine

all of it

twonpelota · 18-10-2011 2:24pm

Time to let this one die!

RacoonQueen · 18-10-2011 2:26pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Time to let this one die!

What the log? the goals? Already?

twonpelota · 18-10-2011 2:33pm

RacoonQueen wrote: »

What the log? the goals? Already?

The log. The need has been removed. As in the secrecy

ecoli · 18-10-2011 3:03pm

Busted already? Has the OH considered detective work? Still I think might not be a bad idea to continue the thread without any of the pretence

EC1000 · 18-10-2011 3:07pm

ecoli wrote: »

continue the thread without any of the pretence

I dont think anyone was in any doubt who Twon was anyway!

hardCopy · 18-10-2011 3:07pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Time to let this one die!

Dang! I just discovered this today.

twonpelota · 18-10-2011 3:22pm

ecoli wrote: »

Busted already? Has the OH considered detective work? Still I think might not be a bad idea to continue the thread without any of the pretence

She can read me well, combined with me not liking to lie. She gave me permission to do Roth before she found out I entered last June. Amazingly getting permission was simple. "You are more motivated, better organised, get more done around the house and happier when you train properly like you did for Austria". "Maybe I should just enter Roth then". "Yes you should, when do you need to enter I thought Roth would sell out". "Eh......." Came clean Monday night, no fuss (for a woman due next Tuesday it was pretty amazing), just "I'm disappointed you didn't feel you could explain why you wanted to do this, and this is the second time you've done this". Best wife ever.

EC1000 wrote: »

I dont think anyone was in any doubt who Twon was anyway!

No a pretty bad secret.

The premise of the log stands. I have till the end of the year to go from Tummy to ...... or I bin it. Baby due this day week so two under two. 18 months off training, 21 pounds over weight, easy pace running is 5min per km, swimming is shocking and my bike is still in the box after frankfurt. Always was a long shot but sure will still give it a lash. now or never.

ecoli · 18-10-2011 3:37pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Amazingly getting permission was simple. "You are more motivated, better organised, get more done around the house and happier when you train properly like you did for Austria". "Maybe I should just enter Roth then". "Yes you should, when do you need to enter I thought Roth would sell out". "Eh......." Came clean Monday night, no fuss (for a woman due next Tuesday it was pretty amazing), just "I'm disappointed you didn't feel you could explain why you wanted to do this, and this is the second time you've done this". Best wife ever.

Must use that approach in future. become pure lazy when I am not training tha eventually a OH will beg me to train quite ingenius really:D

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 18-10-2011 3:42pm

ecoli wrote: »

Still I think might not be a bad idea to continue the thread without any of the pretence

+1 to this it would be a great insight.

EC1000 · 18-10-2011 3:50pm

twonpelota wrote: »

will still give it a lash. now or never.

Excellent. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'm in a similar boat to you in terms of family priorities... albeit at a very different standard of competition

Fair play and best of luck.

twonpelota · 18-10-2011 4:04pm

Mah - if people want it here rather than the club site............. Still can just copy and paste now...........

Plan for today

Lunch : 50 easy with club mate (hes has just been okayed for Roth and Barca, his wife and mine are friends so may not even have to ask about Barca if I commit)

Evening: Figure out what the hell is wrong with my Computrainer. A friend who has one is coming over and we are going to test it in my shed with my computer and then figure out what part of mine isn't working. Did the same in his house at the weekend and the thing worked. Then didn't work in my house. Either the power supply in the shed, the laptop, or some electromagnetic interference in the shed.

Plan for tomorrow

Morning : Hour tough turbo, dentist trip
Lunch: 50 easy run with some pieces
PM: Work night out

Plan for Thursday
Morning: Swim - strength session (hungover)
Lunch: Tempo run
PM: DIY, depending on how long this takes an easy turbo

Plan for Friday
Morning: Swim
Lunch: 30 recovery run
PM: Hill repeats on Howth.

Plan for Saturday
Stupid o'clock: 2:30 ride
Evening: 30-50 run easy

Plan for Sunday
Stupid o'clock: 1:30 run

Plan for next week:
Monday
Morning: Swim
Lunch: Tempo run

Tuesday
Stupid o'clock: Tempo run
Morning: Wife has baby #2 via section

Rest of week:
Panic and survive

RayCun · 18-10-2011 5:45pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Tuesday
Stupid o'clock: Tempo run
Morning: Wife has baby #2 via section

I can't decide between :eek::eek::eek::eek: and :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Notwitch · 19-10-2011 8:41am

I think here works better - more chance of discussion!

Always interested in the fast pieces you through into your easy runs. Strides or longer/harder?

Hope all goes well next week.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 19-10-2011 9:09am

twonpelota wrote: »

Tuesday
Stupid o'clock: Tempo run
Morning: Wife has baby #2 via section

Rest of week:
Panic and survive

Good luck with the bambino. Doubling up is always fun just don't try doubling up from 2 to 4 as it can be a handful.:)

twonpelota · 19-10-2011 11:45am

Notwitch wrote: »

I think here works better - more chance of discussion!

Always interested in the fast pieces you through into your easy runs. Strides or longer/harder?

Hope all goes well next week.

Fast pieces for me typically means something that not going to load up the legs and cardio system but will help me "remember" how to run fast. No more than five minutes "work" through the session

twonpelota · 20-10-2011 3:02pm

Yesterday was a good days training, tough turbo and then a nice run by the sea front later in the day.

Today not so good. I had forgotten that I was booked in with the man with the tan for some pre-tot maintenance. I'll still be training but won't have time to get any remedial work done so aiming for some preventative.

So issues with my right calf that manifested as a fatty pad issue and had to be taped and general tightness too.

45 minutes of pain and being called fat.

twonpelota · 21-10-2011 3:57pm

twonpelota wrote: »

Yesterday was a good days training, tough turbo and then a nice run by the sea front later in the day.

Today not so good. I had forgotten that I was booked in with the man with the tan for some pre-tot maintenance. I'll still be training but won't have time to get any remedial work done so aiming for some preventative.

So issues with my right calf that manifested as a fatty pad issue and had to be taped and general tightness too.

45 minutes of pain and being called fat.

Turned out it was only 40 minutes and I was called well -insulated.

calf problem was a symptom of something else - a twisted pelvis. Also turns out following testing that my left stride is 3-4 inches shorter than my right. Need to address that.

Weekly weigh in

Not too bad considering the amount of crap I am eating

pgibbo · 21-10-2011 4:07pm

Are you just tracking weight or are you tracking %BF also?

How did you diagnose the discrepency in stride length? And more importantly, how will you rectify it? Not easy to judge that when running.

twonpelota · 21-10-2011 4:18pm

pgibbo wrote: »

Are you just tracking weight or are you tracking %BF also?

How did you diagnose the discrepency in stride length? And more importantly, how will you rectify it? Not easy to judge that when running.

Hydration levels have been inconsistent so BF has been too.

Stride length - running on sand at various paces.

Sub nine or bust

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