Is an orgasm so important ???

Morgase · 17-04-2011 10:44AM

I think there's a lot of extrapolating from one's own experiences (borrowing Mallei's phrase) going on here leading to massive generalisations.

It really comes as no surprise that individual women like different things (hell, individual men like different things too!) so why is there such a rush to tell people that they're wrong for, say, wanting penetrative sex even though they'll get no orgasm from it.

If it came down to it, I'd choose penetrative sex over oral sex, but this does not mean that I'm choosing it out of some misguided belief that it's my Evil Boyfriend's expectation. It's just what I want. Other women may want something else entirely and that's their perogative.

Mallei · 17-04-2011 10:45AM

Well as a woman who freely admits to being able to climax from penetration, Ickle Magoo, the discussion doesn't really involve you. You're obviously one of the lucky few who can orgasm with no extra effort required on the part of your lover. No doubt you too will enjoy penetrative sex since you can climax from it with your partner.

Fact is, earlier on in this thread you freely admitted that if you couldn't climax you'd end frustrated - that having an orgasm was important to you in sex. You're lucky enough that you can get that orgasm from your partner's favourite part, too, but most of us have to put up with men that just want to get to the penetration and half-arse through everything else.

Tell me, why is penetration always the last act in a sexual encounter? It seems to me that society accepts that when a man gets off, it's over, whether his woman has or not. He pumps away until he's done and then, well, she should have just come quicker, shouldn't she?

Mallei · 17-04-2011 10:51AM

Morgase wrote: »

I think there's a lot of extrapolating from one's own experiences (borrowing Mallei's phrase) going on here leading to massive generalisations.

It really comes as no surprise that individual women like different things (hell, individual men like different things too!) so why is there such a rush to tell people that they're wrong for, say, wanting penetrative sex even though they'll get no orgasm from it.

If it came down to it, I'd choose penetrative sex over oral sex, but this does not mean that I'm choosing it out of some misguided belief that it's my Evil Boyfriend's expectation. It's just what I want. Other women may want something else entirely and that's their perogative.

So you don't enjoy orgasms then? Or at least you prefer a form of sex that doesn't give you orgasms to one that does? That seems very strange. Why deliberately choose a form of sex that doesn't feel as nice for you as another?

But we really all know the answer, because it's the same all over this country, probably all over the world. Because women are conditioned into believing that penetrative sex is the best bit, and they're conditioned into believing it because the men want them to, because for them it is the best bit.

Morgase, ask your boyfriend what his favourite part of sex is. I guarantee you he says that it's the penetrative part. Perhaps then you'll start to question if that's the real reason it's your favourite part, too.

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 10:52AM

Mallei wrote: »

Well as a woman who freely admits to being able to climax from penetration, Ickle Magoo, the discussion doesn't really involve you. You're obviously one of the lucky few who can orgasm with no extra effort required on the part of your lover. No doubt you too will enjoy penetrative sex since you can climax from it with your partner.

Fact is, earlier on in this thread you freely admitted that if you couldn't climax you'd end frustrated - that having an orgasm was important to you in sex. You're lucky enough that you can get that orgasm from your partner's favourite part, too, but most of us have to put up with men that just want to get to the penetration and half-arse through everything else.

Tell me, why is penetration always the last act in a sexual encounter? It seems to me that society accepts that when a man gets off, it's over, whether his woman has or not. He pumps away until he's done and then, well, she have just come quicker, shouldn't she?

And yet I have had crap sex and selfish lovers and decided that a life time of crap sex and selfish loving would leave me frustrated and angry and not something I was prepared to live with.

I'm not sure why the guys are to blame for you willingly puting up with half-arsed and pretty lousy sex? You sound angry and your posts are tinged with bitterness - having a good sex life is our responsibility, if a guy is rubbish in bed or doesn't do it for you then you have two choices, teach him to get better or get another guy - at no stage are you forced into having anything less than satisfying sex life, or a particular time-table for sexual activities.

Morgase · 17-04-2011 10:59AM

That's my point, Mallei. You find my sexual habits strange, but my habits are no less valid than yours or any other woman's.

I assure you I've not been brainwashed by my boyfriend. I simply enjoy the closeness of my partner's body more than I enjoy orgasms. Part of this, I think, is that we're in a long-distance relationship. So, while I can have orgasms anytime, I value penetrative sex more as I get it less often.

To answer your other question, I know also that he prefers the penetrative sex more than any other form, but I don't see how that is supposed to influence my preference.

Mallei · 17-04-2011 10:59AM

Perhaps it's to do with my age, and more importantly the age of my male peers, but I can assure you that men in their early- to mid-twenties don't give a flying fcuk about giving their women climaxes when it boils down to a fundemental choice between their own orgasms or their partner's.

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:01AM

Mallei wrote: »

Perhaps it's to do with my age, and more importantly the age of my male peers, but I can assure you that men in their early- to mid-twenties don't give a flying fcuk about giving their women climaxes when it boils down to a fundemental choice between their own orgasms or their partner's.

That is complete and utter tosh as well. This has everything to do with you and your personal experiences, it has nothing to do with "men" or "women" - please stop trying to bolster your personal opinion with crass generalisations.

Morgase · 17-04-2011 11:02AM

Mallei wrote: »

Perhaps it's to do with my age, and more importantly the age of my male peers, but I can assure you that men in their early- to mid-twenties don't give a flying fcuk about giving their women climaxes when it boils down to a fundemental choice between their own orgasms or their partner's.

Ah here, this is a ridiculous generalisation. Maybe you should amend that to say "men that I personally know of this age group etc etc".

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:04AM

Morgase wrote: »

That's my point, Mallei. You find my sexual habits strange, but my habits are no less valid than yours or any other woman's.

I assure you I've not been brainwashed by my boyfriend. I simply enjoy the closeness of my partner's body more than I enjoy orgasms. Part of this, I think, is that we're in a long-distance relationship. So, while I can have orgasms anytime, I value penetrative sex more as I get it less often.

To answer your other question, I know also that he prefers the penetrative sex more than any other form, but I don't see how that is supposed to influence my preference.

It influences your preference because you're conditioned from a young age to want to please him sexually, so much so that you'll actually lie to yourself about the sex you prefer just so that it mirrors the sex he prefers. It's hardly an uncommon situation - just look at all the women out there deluding themselves into thinking they like anal sex, or giving oral sex, purely because their men demand it.

And about your second paragraph - yes, perhaps that explains it. I can understand that mentality; you take it when you can because you see him less often. But that's not the same thing. The very nature of the long-distance relationship makes your preferences different to how they would be were that major issue not present. I wonder, if and when the two of you become a short-distance relationship again, whether you'll still be perfectly happy to be with a man who doesn't provide you with orgasms?

I assume from your post that you can provide yourself with plenty when he's not around. When he's around all the time, you're going to get far less opportunity to give yourself orgasms because he's going to be wanting sex constantly - so if you're fundementally inorgasmic around him, it's going to be a problem further down the line. We'll see if you're so content with non-orgasmic sex then.

opinion guy · 17-04-2011 11:05AM

Mallei wrote: »

Perhaps it's to do with my age, and more importantly the age of my male peers, but I can assure you that men in their early- to mid-twenties don't give a flying fcuk about giving their women climaxes when it boils down to a fundemental choice between their own orgasms or their partner's.

I am no longer in that age bracket but I can tell you when I was I was more worried about getting the girl off and being good for her than I was about my own satisfaction (which sadly was often lacking - I faked it a few times....yes men can fake it too).

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:06AM

Mallei wrote: »

just look at all the women out there deluding themselves into thinking they like anal sex, or giving oral sex, purely because their men demand it.

Are they as common as the women who delude themselves that just because it's not their cup of tea, no woman could possibly enjoy it?

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:09AM

I'm sure there must be some women out there who like it, sure, but given the biology at play most women are not going to. Yet they'll do it just to please their men, and they won't lie there being honest about how much it hurts.

Women have come a long way in terms of sexual liberation over the past forty years, but we've still a long way yet to go to catch up with the men. Almost everything about society's attitudes towards sex are still androcentric at their core, and there's a whole generation of young women growing up thinking that's the done thing.

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:12AM

Sorry, where are you getting the information for making these claims?

radicalcleric · 17-04-2011 11:12AM

Mallei wrote: »

I'm sure there must be some women out there who like it, sure, but given the biology at play most women are not going to. Yet they'll do it just to please their men, and they won't lie there being honest about how much it hurts.

Women have come a long way in terms of sexual liberation over the past forty years, but we've still a long way yet to go to catch up with the men. Almost everything about society's attitudes towards sex are still androcentric at their core, and there's a whole generation of young women growing up thinking that's the done thing.

Why do you have so little respect for other women that you think they are brain washed and deceiving themselves? If a man came out with that sort of opinion he'd be (rightly) considered a misogynist

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:13AM

Common sense?

I've not seen anyone else in this thread quoting scientific journals, either.

Morgase · 17-04-2011 11:17AM

Mallei wrote: »

It influences your preference because you're conditioned from a young age to want to please him sexually, so much so that you'll actually lie to yourself about the sex you prefer just so that it mirrors the sex he prefers. It's hardly an uncommon situation - just look at all the women out there deluding themselves into thinking they like anal sex, or giving oral sex, purely because their men demand it.

I'm old enough to know exactly what I want at this stage, and also to be very clear with my partner about what I want and don't want to do. I'm not lying to myself

Mallei wrote: »

And about your second paragraph - yes, perhaps that explains it. I can understand that mentality; you take it when you can because you see him less often. But that's not the same thing. The very nature of the long-distance relationship makes your preferences different to how they would be were that major issue not present. I wonder, if and when the two of you become a short-distance relationship again, whether you'll still be perfectly happy to be with a man who doesn't provide you with orgasms?

I assume from your post that you can provide yourself with plenty when he's not around. When he's around all the time, you're going to get far less opportunity to give yourself orgasms because he's going to be wanting sex constantly - so if you're fundementally inorgasmic around him, it's going to be a problem further down the line. We'll see if you're so content with non-orgasmic sex then.

I think you misunderstand me. Let me clarify - I don't have non-orgasmic sex. My partner is extremely attentive in that respect. He's the antithesis of the early to mid twenties men you referred to eariler. I simply haven't managed to orgasm through penetrative sex yet.

And as for him going to be wanting sex constantly when he's around all the time - I bloody well hope so!

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:17AM

Mallei wrote: »

Common sense?

I've not seen anyone else in this thread quoting scientific journals, either.

No, not common sense. Why is it so difficult to accept other women work, like and want different things?

You also haven't seen anyone else making ridiculous claims on behalf of an entire gender regarding what they enjoy in the bedroom and why.

17-04-2011 11:18AM

Mallei you are making ridiculous claims. Perhaps you don't like them but that does not mean the rest of us are lying to ourselves just because we don't share your tastes.
Your posts are verging on condescending and insulting at this stage.

Count Duckula · 17-04-2011 11:19AM

Hang on Mallei, are you claiming that women can't possibly enjoy penetrative sex? Or at least they must always prefer oral sex because it leads to orgasms? That's surely tosh.

Let's look at the wider picture. If a woman would prefer oral sex because of the orgasms, surely she'd then also prefer her rabbit? After all, the toy is designed to be perfectly suited to her hotspots the way no man could possibly be. In terms of pure physical pleasure, that vibrating rabbit will blow any man out of the water a million times over.

And yet women the world over aren't turning to their favourite toys and telling the men in their lives to get lost. In my experience they enjoy them for different things - the toy gives the intense pleasure and amazing release, the sex gives the feeling of closeness and the emotional bonding. Yes, some women are lucky enough to climax through penetrative sex alone, but for the majority the two remain separate things, both of which are lovely.

Why are you trying to force most women into making a choice? They can have both. The toy and the oral sex to get the orgasmic release they crave, and then the penetrative sex for the bonding. I can't speak from a woman's point of view, but I know that one of my favourite things in a sexual encounter is seeing my girlfriend getting off (and yet I'm a MAN, Mallei, how ****ed up is that?!). I wouldn't be surprised if in return women enjoyed seeing their man doing the same. Just because you seem to loathe anything to do with men doesn't mean every woman does.

On a slightly silly note, if you are finding a lack of orgasms during sex a problem owing to your partner's lack of skills in the oral department, then perhaps consider investing in a nice good-quality rabbit toy, and let him use that on you. I don't care how bad he is with his mouth, when that's buzzing away down there you're going to have only one response - and it'll be a good one.

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:26AM

I am yet to find a man who isn't horribly intimidated by sex toys. I actually have a selection of toys, thank you very much, and I think I know a little bit more about what does and doesn't feel good on a woman's body than any man possibly could.

And of course you like the sight of your girlfriend climaxing; it would be absurd if you didn't. But that's because you know that you, too, will orgasm later on. I very much doubt you'd be so content were you expected to give her orgasms whilst not receiving any of your own, and yet that's how most men seem to view things.

Sorry, that's how most men I've ever met in my entire life which obviously isn't the entire population of men in the whole world unlike all the other posters who appear to speak for every human on the planet seem to view things.

Wibbs · 17-04-2011 11:27AM

Mallei wrote: »

I'm sure there must be some women out there who like it, sure, but given the biology at play most women are not going to. Yet they'll do it just to please their men, and they won't lie there being honest about how much it hurts.

How much it hurts? What the fu..? :eek: Good god, we've gone from "take or leave it" to vaginal sex hurts. Oh yea and that all early 20's men are utterly selfish lovers and demand anal and oral sex? You're having a laugh surely? Maybe the women are different today, but if I had ever "demanded" anal or oral back in the day I'd be singing soprano now.

Women have come a long way in terms of sexual liberation over the past forty years, but we've still a long way yet to go to catch up with the men. Almost everything about society's attitudes towards sex are still androcentric at their core, and there's a whole generation of young women growing up thinking that's the done thing.

Really? How many column inches are dedicated to female sexuality and the female orgasm? How many are dedicated to the male? How many sex toys are aimed at men? If a woman told you she used sex toys you'd (rightfully) say you go for it! If a man did? Be honest, I'd put money you'd think less of him. Compare and contrast. Sex is "androcentric"? Give me an ever loving break.

Common sense?

Or personal experience that has coloured this "common sense" in a terribly subjective way. Or to put it another way, who ever he was he was a right dickhead, or a series of dickheads.

I've not seen anyone else in this thread quoting scientific journals, either.

*NSFW* OK http://www.northbynorthwestern.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/581px-clitoris_inner_anatomy.gif Here's the clitoris in it's entirety. It's like an iceberg

The external is the smallest part of it by far. Look how it wraps around the vaginal walls, when pressure is applied there, either externally to the labia, or internally with the G spot, or with the filling up of a penis or toy the overall clitoris is stimulated. Now can you see how a woman could orgasm from penetration alone?

The_Morrigan · 17-04-2011 11:28AM

Mallei wrote: »

I am yet to find a man who isn't horribly intimidated by sex toys. I actually have a selection of toys, thank you very much, and I think I know a little bit more about what does and doesn't feel good on a woman's body than any man possibly could.

And of course you like the sight of your girlfriend climaxing; it would be absurd if you didn't. But that's because you know that you, too, will orgasm later on. I very much doubt you'd be so content were you expected to give her orgasms whilst not receiving any of your own, and yet that's how most men seem to view things.

Sorry, that's how most men I've ever met in my entire life which obviously isn't the entire population of men in the whole world unlike all the other posters who appear to speak for every human on the planet seem to view things.

I'm female and I also have a selection of toys and the majority of the guys I've slept with while I've had them have loved having them involved, it seems to be a real turn on for them.

17-04-2011 11:32AM

Wibbs wrote: »

How much it hurts? What the fu..? :eek: Good god, we've gone from "take or leave it" to vaginal sex hurts.

I have a feeling she might have been on about anal there, though it's another case of 'not doing it right' if so...

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:34AM

Mallei wrote: »

I am yet to find a man who isn't horribly intimidated by sex toys. I actually have a selection of toys, thank you very much, and I think I know a little bit more about what does and doesn't feel good on a woman's body than any man possibly could.

And yet I've never found a man who didn't love using toys, on me or even on themselves...

Mallei wrote: »

Sorry, that's how most men I've ever met in my entire life which obviously isn't the entire population of men in the whole world unlike all the other posters who appear to speak for every human on the planet seem to view things.

I don't think anyone else has been claiming to speak for all men or all women or both - unlike yourself who's astonishing claims even stretch to knowing what my partners sexual preferences are...

From #93:

Mallei wrote:

...from your partner's favourite part

:eek:

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:36AM

Wibbs wrote: »

How much it hurts? What the fu..? :eek: Good god, we've gone from "take or leave it" to vaginal sex hurts. Oh yea and that all early 20's men are utterly selfish lovers and demand anal and oral sex? You're having a laugh surely? Maybe the women are different today, but if I had ever "demanded" anal or oral back in the day I'd be singing soprano now.

If you bothered to actually read that post you'd see I was talking about anal sex. Which, assuming you've never been forced to try it since you're the man, you wouldn't know. Why is it that women are expected to take something up a passage where it doesn't go, whereas men will point-blank refuse to do the same? Even though, owing to the location of the prostate, a man would likely get more out of it?

Oh, I know, it's because sex is still male-dominated. "I want to stick it in your **** and you'll do it because you love me."

Wibbs wrote: »

Really? How many column inches are dedicated to female sexuality and the female orgasm? How many are dedicated to the male? How many sex toys are aimed at men? If a woman told you she used sex toys you'd (rightfully) say you go for it! If a man did? Be honest, I'd put money you'd think less of him. Compare and contrast. Sex is "androcentric"? Give me an ever loving break.

Did you ever stop to think that the reason there are so many "column inches" dedicated to the female orgasm, or so many sex toys aimed at women is because they need them? That sex is still so androcentric that what gets the man off is taught to us naturally as we grow up; we actually view the very act of sex in such a way that it pleases the man. We need those toys and column inches to undo the damage.

Wibbs wrote: »

Or personal experience that has coloured this "common sense" in a terribly subjective way. Or to put it another way, who ever he was he was a right dickhead, or a series of dickheads.

Back onto this, are we? Let's attack the subjectivity of her argument so that we don't have to deal with the validity of her claims.

Wibbs wrote: »

*NSFW* OK http://www.northbynorthwestern.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/581px-clitoris_inner_anatomy.gif Here's the clitoris in it's entirety. It's like an iceberg The external is the smallest part of it by far. Look how it wraps around the vaginal walls, when pressure is applied there, either externally to the labia, or internally with the G spot, or with the filling up of a penis or toy the overall clitoris is stimulated. Now can you see how a woman could orgasm from penetration alone?

And now you're dragging it off-topic. I never said that no woman could climax; I'm well-aware of the biology at play. Some women can climax from penetrative sex. Lucky them.

Unless, of course, this is more ego-stroking on your part by trying to prove that actually every woman has the potential to climax from vaginal sex. Here's a diagram on a random website to prove it. If you're not climaxing from penetrative sex, my dear, it's entirely your own fault.

17-04-2011 11:38AM

Mallei wrote: »

If you bothered to actually read that post you'd see I was talking about anal sex. Which, assuming you've never been forced to try it since you're the man, you wouldn't know. Why is it that women are expected to take something up a passage where it doesn't go, whereas men will point-blank refuse to do the same? Even though, owing to the location of the prostate, a man would likely get more out of it?

Oh, I know, it's because sex is still male-dominated. "I want to stick it in your **** and you'll do it because you love me."

Mallei you have clearly had some bad experiences. Perhaps you should realise you have just had bad experiences instead of trying to pin it on all men?
I sincerely doubt many women posting here have been 'forced' to try it.

Ickle Magoo · 17-04-2011 11:40AM

Mallei wrote: »

Why is it that women are expected to take something up a passage where it doesn't go, whereas men will point-blank refuse to do the same?

SOME women will refuse to have anal, SOME women love it. SOME men refuse to have any kind of anal stimulation, SOME men love it. See how that works?

Again, you're back to making ridiculous claims and crass generalisations that don't hold any water outside your narrow sphere of experience.

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:40AM

Will those women have asked their men to take something equivalently sized into them? I doubt it.

I wonder why.

The_Morrigan · 17-04-2011 11:41AM

Mallei wrote: »

If you bothered to actually read that post you'd see I was talking about anal sex. Which, assuming you've never been forced to try it since you're the man, you wouldn't know. Why is it that women are expected to take something up a passage where it doesn't go, whereas men will point-blank refuse to do the same? Even though, owing to the location of the prostate, a man would likely get more out of it?

Oh, I know, it's because sex is still male-dominated. "I want to stick it in your **** and you'll do it because you love me."

WTF???

Forced to try? are you now claiming that women are being subjected to anal rape?

Jesus I've partaken in all types of sex - ya know, to try it out to find out what I like and what I don't - I've never been pressurised into anything by a guy and if any guy acted like that he wouldn't last very long.
And just to note, some of my previous partners have partaken in ass play - so again you're wrong in your claims.

Mallei · 17-04-2011 11:44AM

Well, this thread has gone way off-topic, and I'm clearly not going to get through to any of your particular clique. I truly hope you're happy in your androcentric and unsatisfying sex lives, or at least you can continue to delude yourselves that you are.

Is an orgasm so important ???

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