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Student nurses to protest over pay abolition

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 mar5


    i am a qualified nurse and i must correct you on the point regarding responsibility,,,,,,if anything happens with the patient it is the nurses responsibility and not the students.Also there are some students that do deserved to be paid however there are others that have no interest at all and are just in nursing to get a degree and go into a different career,,,,nursing should have been left as a diploma programme and then like myself have the option of doing the degree and work fulltime like i did during that year,,,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 mar5


    Student nurses do get breaks, one one hour break and 2 fifteen minutes break for the average shift. These breaks are ring fenced off.

    They do get overpaid compared to qualified healthcare assistants. They are not qualified and shouldn't be working but learning from qualified nurses in a supervised setting. Much like any other field. It's just cheap labour from the governements point of view.

    And nurses in general get overpaid and don't do the work they take "training days" off at the taxpayers expense e.g. cannula insertion, ECGs, first dose medications. The standard line is "I'm not covered to do that" when in fact they are. They also leave a lot of the manual work to health care assistants and porters and use the not covered line quite frequently here too.

    Look at any other EU healthcare system and you will find nurses do this stuff and aren't as lazy and overpaid as their Irish equivalents.
    to roger marbles,,,,,am a qualified nurse and how dare you say that we leave alot of the manual work to healthcare assistants,,,,i work in an oncology ward and all the staff work together ,,we only have one healthcare assistant on some days and yes us nurses do , do the manual work also.....assisting the patients is number one priority and maintaining their activities of daily living is vital.....i can only talk for my own ward,,just wondering do you work in healthcare,,,also with regards to the cannualation study day and ecgs and first dose drugs we are not taught them in college,,,,so yes i do use the line @i am covered with regards to ecgs' because i have not been trained to use them or read them....with regards cannualation it depends on what speciality one workd in,,,,,as i work in an oncology setting cannualation is vital and yes again i had to attend a study day because one has to be trained in order to insert a cannualae...i wasnt trained in college to do it......i have the responsibility of lives every day and if there is a procedure that i am not aware of it,,,i have the right to say i am not covered to do it,,,,,within my scope of nursing practice i must be accountable and if something is outside my scope i will not be covered and will be putting the patients life at risk and my own career,,,so please get your facts correct before ya state such stuff and also how dare you say we are lazy,,,,come work with me for one hour,,and will prove you wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 mar5


    Hogzy wrote: »
    I can guarantee 100% you cannot show a source for this. Or else your soure is someone "you know" who gets paid this amount. No fresh graduate starts on 40k in nursing unless they end up doing 70-80hrs a week with overtime, and if thats the case then they deserve that sort of money.

    The sheer amount of hear say in this thread has reached epic proportions. No doubt the majority of it is BS
    totally agree with ya,,,,wish people would get their facts straight will be 7 years qualified this year and would love to have seen me topline pay before tax to be 60,000 ,,,what world is padraig in!and also to say that the wards are easier than a and e give me a break,,,,,the cheek of him,,,he obviously has never worked in a hospital,and to say that the hca's do the dirty work,,,he really has not got a clue at all which really maddens me,,,we might have only one hca on during the day and we all work together as a team and get the work done,,,,so padraig please get your facts correct before you start tying because you havent a clue


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭kurisu


    Have a look at our "Nurses per capita" stats, as a country.

    14 per 1,000.

    2nd in the world, behind only Finland. Twice that of France at 6.7.

    How is this explained? Do nurses cover jobs that are done by non-nurse staff in other countries?

    As a non-nurse, this seems like a luxury that a broke country with a high basic wage simply cannot afford. Obviously a hugely contentious issue, as nurses are a well unionised, vocal and popular cohort.

    If the Government is trying to cut numbers, surely the least worst option would have been to address the issue of nursing places in college, to avoid a situation where the single largest employer cannot take the people who they have spent the last 3 years training.


    Your ignoring the issue of student nurses being forced to work fulltime hours as nurses for no pay ,if you want you are free to start a thread about fully qualified nurses pay but these are both unrelated

    "As a non-nurse"- well then you don't know jack ****



    also to others that say "well if you don't like it don't do nursing" do you realize what that would mean? fewer and fewer nurses, the healthcare system will only get more strained and we'll be forced to use high salary offers to attract foreign/expat irish nurses to Ireland which will cost us more than low paid student nurses fresh out of college.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Went to college last year and was friends with a few 4th year student nurses. They've all since found employment in Britain. One of the major advantages for them seeking employment was the practical experience they gained on their last 9 months placement.

    I know from talking to them that they worked extremely hard. However, the investment in their training is unlikely to benefit the Irish state for quite some time to come. Most of my friends from my own course have availed of the fas WPP1, whereby they work in a placement for free but are allowed to draw benefits. Most are reaching 9 months in their placements.

    Very complex situation with no quick fix solutions. No wonder the youth of this country are leaving in droves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,808 ✭✭✭take everything


    mar5 wrote: »
    also with regards to the cannualation study day and ecgs and first dose drugs we are not taught them in college,,,,so yes i do use the line @i am covered with regards to ecgs' because i have not been trained to use them or read them....with regards cannualation it depends on what speciality one workd in,,,,,as i work in an oncology setting cannualation is vital and yes again i had to attend a study day because one has to be trained in order to insert a cannualae...i wasnt trained in college to do it......i have the responsibility of lives every day and if there is a procedure that i am not aware of it,,,i have the right to say i am not covered to do it,,,,,within my scope of nursing practice i must be accountable and if something is outside my scope i will not be covered and will be putting the patients life at risk and my own career

    ^Don't want to get into this but just on this:
    Man i wish NCHDs had that luxury.
    There's no real proper training in college for doing any of that stuff for NCHDs but they're expected to do this stuff straight from internship (see one, do one, teach one etc).
    I envy nurses sometimes.
    An NCHD would get a kick up the ar$e if he said he wasn't covered to do something because he wasn't properly trained.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 onelessprob


    kurisu wrote: »
    Your ignoring the issue of student nurses being forced to work fulltime hours as nurses for no pay ,if you want you are free to start a thread about fully qualified nurses pay but these are both unrelated

    "As a non-nurse"- well then you don't know jack ****



    also to others that say "well if you don't like it don't do nursing" do you realize what that would mean? fewer and fewer nurses, the healthcare system will only get more strained and we'll be forced to use high salary offers to attract foreign/expat irish nurses to Ireland which will cost us more than low paid student nurses fresh out of college.

    The point was we have to look at our current number of nurses per capita. Rather than lay off, the powers may moratorium new recruits, non-domestically trained, etc. And i wouldn't say i don't know jack stars! I am well up on international health-care employment. We are producing 1600 graduates that we can't employ. Not paying someone for 9 months of pre-reg work is not to be compared with the slave trade. No-one benifits from this comparrison except newspapers. In all lines of work this is now the norm. And saying a patients life is are in danger is just waving the health-care stick, akin to blackmail. You can't say people will die, you cannot run a business without any sense of cost management, just because it is healthcare. The money belongs to the taxpayer, not the HSE for employees to spend as they will with no accountability or stewardship.

    As to your comment about being forced to recruit high cost nurses from elsewhere. I think the HSE is no longer "either or", it's "neither." That is the point of there cuts. Although if you have evidence of people being brought in from outside at higher pay in place of irish nurses, please share.

    + How much does the 3 3/4 years of college cost the state in relation to the 9 months pay?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    As a former Nurse I can only say this is appalling. I gave up the job because I could no longer take the lifestyle - it was hectic beyond belief.

    12hr shifts are bad enough, but when they contain aspects like being expected to deal with the death of a patient and then carry on as if nothing has happened - well, it's not a normal job. Even as a student nurse it's not easy.

    I couldn't hack it. I can only applaud those who do. It's emotionally and physically draining - even as a student. Infact, particularly as a student. I don't know how they'd cope without money for 'luxuries' like a car to get to and from work (Trust me - getting a bus to and from a 1hour shift is heartbreaking), or even have enough money feckin' lunch for godsake.

    It's appalling to think that of my former class of 84, only 5 are left working in Ireland. But if the country is happy to have a nursing shortage, I say be it on their head.

    We can afford to keep paying our Taoiseach more than the US President.
    We can afford to pay hundreds of bogus claims to welfare weekly.
    We can afford to prop up dodgy banks.

    We cannot afford to pay the small wages of the people who will care for us in our time of need and who will maintain our dignity when we no longer can.

    Shame.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22 harar


    As a second year student nurse I have been disgusted by the blatent ignorance and lack of respect displayed by a number of these posts. Its difficult not to feel personally insulted when a profession you are working extremely hard to enter is over-simplified and demeaned.

    In the course of my training I've completed 14 weeks clinical practice so far and have also worked part-time as an agency care assistant. I have worked with nurses who I attempt to model myself on and nurses that made me promise myself never to begin to resent my job to the point that it compromises patient care.

    Myself and the majority of my class have felt we have learnt a lot from the fourth year students. Majority of them land on their feet in an extremely stressful situation in prioritizing patient care, tending to their patients physical and emotional needs as well as concerned families and friends.

    To expect intern nurses to work for nothing for one thing, but to insinuate they are lazy and don't deserve to be recognized as members of the heathcare team is completely unreasonable. Though they can't give drugs on their own, counter-signing drugs is a formality most of the time. As are the rules pertaining to IV meds etc.

    It is undeniable that nursing is a stressful job. The hours are tough, as are the difficult patients. However, I would take an angry patient any day than one in pain or dying, or with no family to care for them. This is where the stress is shared between everyone working on the ward, from HCAs to the CNM- students included.

    Personally, I am not surprised the pay is getting cut. Both my parents took significant cuts to their salaries and neither of them work in the public sector. I did not attend the sit in protests yesterday because I felt uncomfortable protesting at a place where people are sick or scared, but having read these posts I regret that as clearly the mutual respect I though existed between carers and those being cared for (which includes family members) is weaker than i thought. For the record I don't agree with the slave labour phrase either.

    I find the 'nurses as heroes' school of though irritating and I have tried to resist sounding like the stereotypical bullish student protester. Luckily I live at home so the pay cuts won't affect me as badly as some of my class. Nursing is the degree programme in Ireland with the most parent students and has one of the highest number of people receiving the student grant as far as I know. It's hard work but most of us love it. Caring for patients involves more than drug rounds and hanging IV meds and anyone who has had a loved one in hospital can tell you that having someone their when you cant be to make them tea or listen to them talk is a huge relief. 4th year interns may not deserve to be exempt from pay cuts but working for nothing is asking too much.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    mehfesto wrote: »
    We can afford to keep paying our Taoiseach more than the US President.
    Don't use this because you look like an idiot and I'm disregarding your entire post now.
    harar wrote: »
    As a second year student nurse I have been disgusted by the blatent ignorance and lack of respect displayed by a number of these posts. Its difficult not to feel personally insulted when a profession you are working extremely hard to enter is over-simplified and demeaned.

    ...

    4th year interns may not deserve to be exempt from pay cuts but working for nothing is asking too much.

    Some students are student nurses. Some students are lazy. Therefore some student nurses are lazy.
    Its quarter to two and I'm lying in bed. The biggest mistake the governing body was removing the interview process. My aunt went for a job after college and she was asked the colour on the walls in the waiting room. She told him and was the first to get the job in that hiring period. I think she got it there and then. Can't remember. Oh well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22 harar


    whether student nurses are lazy or not isn't relevant to the debate on pay cuts.
    being lazy as a student nurse isnt really tolerated well.. working 7 nights in a row or 13 hour shifts are required to pass each year so the an extremely lazy person would probably not make it through first year... (and i hate to pull the whole standing on my feet all day card but it feels necessary)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    harar wrote: »
    whether student nurses are lazy or not isn't relevant to the debate on pay cuts.
    being lazy as a student nurse isnt really tolerated well.. working 7 nights in a row or 13 hour shifts are required to pass each year so the an extremely lazy person would probably not make it through first year... (and i hate to pull the whole standing on my feet all day card but it feels necessary)

    I never heard of a student nurse work 7 nights in a row.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,122 ✭✭✭✭Jimmy Bottlehead


    Have to say, the nurses deserve it. It's all well and good to say we've all taken cuts (and I feel it as much as anyone) but those in construction, offices, schools, etc. don't have to deal with psychiatric patients, don't have to clean up a patient and a bed after an elderly person has had an accident, and don't have to have the responsibility of ill people every minute of their working lives.

    Student or not, these nurses do things we would not do for any wage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22 harar


    I never heard of a student nurse work 7 nights in a row.


    thats what will be expected of me and my class during our internship..and what the 4th year interns are doing at the moment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭ene


    in the rostered placement a student nurse has to work 2 sets of 7 nights and also weekends whenever they are rostered

    considerning it costs the hse 15euro a hour to get a carer to work on a sunday and 27euro a hour for a nurse on a sunday it seem ridiculous to cut the students pay since they are replacing the actual staff nurses


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 229 ✭✭Babyblessed


    The point was we have to look at our current number of nurses per capita. Rather than lay off, the powers may moratorium new recruits, non-domestically trained, etc. And i wouldn't say i don't know jack stars! I am well up on international health-care employment. We are producing 1600 graduates that we can't employ. Not paying someone for 9 months of pre-reg work is not to be compared with the slave trade. No-one benifits from this comparrison except newspapers. In all lines of work this is now the norm. And saying a patients life is are in danger is just waving the health-care stick, akin to blackmail. You can't say people will die, you cannot run a business without any sense of cost management, just because it is healthcare. The money belongs to the taxpayer, not the HSE for employees to spend as they will with no accountability or stewardship.

    As to your comment about being forced to recruit high cost nurses from elsewhere. I think the HSE is no longer "either or", it's "neither." That is the point of there cuts. Although if you have evidence of people being brought in from outside at higher pay in place of irish nurses, please share.

    + How much does the 3 3/4 years of college cost the state in relation to the 9 months pay?

    The figures you quote regarding nurses (what about midwives?) per capita are old, 8 years old... 2003 figures.
    We start to train 1600 per annum but there are drop outs... not that many qualify and in the last 2 years the government have cut nursing places. They havent cut midwifery places because they deemed there to be too few midwives in the country........... shame they arent employing these midwives.
    4 FULL years of nurse/midwifery training cost the tax payer circa €90k, I am not sure if that does or does not include rostered year.
    With regards to the 'higher pay' issue, there are many agency nurses/midwives working on the wards. Some work 3 days a week every week, they would be more expensive than regular permanent workers. Unfortunately the moratorium prevents the HSE employing them permanently which would work out cheaper. Obviously not all agency workers are so lucky.

    _________________________________________________________________
    pragmatic1 wrote: »
    Went to college last year and was friends with a few 4th year student nurses. They've all since found employment in Britain. One of the major advantages for them seeking employment was the practical experience they gained on their last 9 months placement.

    I know from talking to them that they worked extremely hard. However, the investment in their training is unlikely to benefit the Irish state for quite some time to come. Most of my friends from my own course have availed of the fas WPP1, whereby they work in a placement for free but are allowed to draw benefits. Most are reaching 9 months in their placements.

    Very complex situation with no quick fix solutions. No wonder the youth of this country are leaving in droves.

    I feel sad for those who have no other alternative than go to other countries to work. Many will never come home because the new rules mean they will come back to the HSE as a new worker.... therefore on the lowest salary as a new entrant no matter if they have 2-3 (or more) experience elsewhere.
    As an employed (albeit shortly to be unpaid) worker in the HSE these workers will not be able to avail of benefits at least that would make things easier.....

    _________________________________________________________________
    Have a look at our "Nurses per capita" stats, as a country.

    14 per 1,000.

    2nd in the world, behind only Finland. Twice that of France at 6.7.

    How is this explained? Do nurses cover jobs that are done by non-nurse staff in other countries?

    As a non-nurse, this seems like a luxury that a broke country with a high basic wage simply cannot afford. Obviously a hugely contentious issue, as nurses are a well unionised, vocal and popular cohort.

    If the Government is trying to cut numbers, surely the least worst option would have been to address the issue of nursing places in college, to avoid a situation where the single largest employer cannot take the people who they have spent the last 3 years training.

    As I said above 2003 figures.
    The government have cut figures by 20% on some nursing courses.
    Unfortunately there are jobs out there, I believe CUMH is short nearly 80 full time midwives. They are being replaced by agency staff, more expensive if full-time but maybe more flexible. Still leaves an issue around continuity of care.

    _________________________________________________________________
    mehfesto wrote: »
    As a former Nurse I can only say this is appalling. I gave up the job because I could no longer take the lifestyle - it was hectic beyond belief.

    12hr shifts are bad enough, but when they contain aspects like being expected to deal with the death of a patient and then carry on as if nothing has happened - well, it's not a normal job. Even as a student nurse it's not easy.

    I couldn't hack it. I can only applaud those who do. It's emotionally and physically draining - even as a student. Infact, particularly as a student. I don't know how they'd cope without money for 'luxuries' like a car to get to and from work (Trust me - getting a bus to and from a 1hour shift is heartbreaking), or even have enough money feckin' lunch for godsake.

    It's appalling to think that of my former class of 84, only 5 are left working in Ireland. But if the country is happy to have a nursing shortage, I say be it on their head.

    We can afford to keep paying our Taoiseach more than the US President.
    We can afford to pay hundreds of bogus claims to welfare weekly.
    We can afford to prop up dodgy banks.

    We cannot afford to pay the small wages of the people who will care for us in our time of need and who will maintain our dignity when we no longer can.

    Shame.

    I feel for you, you are obviously a caring person and you should have been given more support.
    5 left working in Ireland is a shocking statistic but not surprising given the current situation.

    _________________________________________________________________
    harar wrote: »
    thats what will be expected of me and my class during our internship..and what the 4th year interns are doing at the moment

    Yep, me too! They try to avoid the 7 long days/nights but it does happen occasionally.

    _________________________________________________________________
    Have to say, the nurses deserve it. It's all well and good to say we've all taken cuts (and I feel it as much as anyone) but those in construction, offices, schools, etc. don't have to deal with psychiatric patients, don't have to clean up a patient and a bed after an elderly person has had an accident, and don't have to have the responsibility of ill people every minute of their working lives.

    Student or not, these nurses do things we would not do for any wage.

    I love my job! But I dont love paying a mortgage with buttons!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 229 ✭✭Babyblessed


    ene wrote: »
    in the rostered placement a student nurse has to work 2 sets of 7 nights and also weekends whenever they are rostered

    considerning it costs the hse 15euro a hour to get a carer to work on a sunday and 27euro a hour for a nurse on a sunday it seem ridiculous to cut the students pay since they are replacing the actual staff nurses


    ene, thanks for that... Some of my colleagues are working with nurse agencies as HCA's and are earning more now than they will in pre-reg rostered year when they will take patient case loads and more importantly responsibility.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭ene


    well as a student nurse i know that the majority of the course do agency work as extra experience/money during the first 3 years, however everyone, myself included have found it very difficult to differentiate the roles as many hospitals actually request student nurses as carers as we are more qualified and they can make us do obs etc.

    the things we do even on 1st year placements is more then the health care assistants and i think its ridiculous that the hse think they can pick on the students who do jobs that no one would ever volunteer to do


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 229 ✭✭Babyblessed


    ene wrote: »
    well as a student nurse i know that the majority of the course do agency work as extra experience/money during the first 3 years, however everyone, myself included have found it very difficult to differentiate the roles as many hospitals actually request student nurses as carers as we are more qualified and they can make us do obs etc.

    the things we do even on 1st year placements is more then the health care assistants and i think its ridiculous that the hse think they can pick on the students who do jobs that no one would ever volunteer to do


    Completely agree Ene.... the things we do in the first 3 years are certainly not supernumery!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Can only speak from personal experiance:

    I have my daughter in Sept, The only qualified personnel I met in 6 days in hospital were the midwife who delivered the baby and the head midwife, who did the rounds daily.

    The 2 nurses in the day and the night nurse were students.

    One girl worked the 1st 5 days I was there, 9 or 12 hr shifts. I work 50hrs per week and wouldn't dream of doing that work for nothing.

    This girl gave me my meds, spent hours getting my baby to latch on, completed the discharge details and wrote all the documents to be given to the doctors.

    Maybe the head midwife signed off on her work, but I didn't see it.

    Hopefully this girl got a job outside the country by now, as this was her plan.

    The HSE are exploiting cheap labour to fill holes left from the recruitment embargo.

    What exactly would happen if all student nurses only worked/trained on wards 9-5pm from now on...... how many wards would close.

    Dont have any connection with nurses and think there should be atleast a 33% reduction in HSE back room staff.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Mooo


    Im actually really surprised that student nurses get paid.

    4th year Social Work students do months of work experience, take on their own caseloads, do the frontline work/ case work, work in child protection/homeless services/mental health/hospitals etc... and don't get a penny.

    No money for the work. No money to get lunch. No money for petrol spent on home visits or bus cards. Nothing.

    The work experience runs 4 days a week and then 5 days a week when the rest of the college is on a break. It goes for 5-6months.

    It bothered me at the time and then I didn't know that other students were getting paid.

    HSE is the biggest employer of Social Workers and provide the majority of placements.

    So why is there funding for some work experience and not others?

    There's protests about the money getting cut for nursing. There wasn't ever any money for social work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭mumtoe&e


    baldbear wrote: »
    Do student nurses in the UK get paid?

    They get a bursuary in the UK for the 3 years duration of the course!!!
    I am a student Midwife - the course is 4 years - placement is very tough going, long hours (8.30am-9.15pm at the moment) and we work hard. I am a mother of 2 children, with a mortgage - when I signed up for this course, I signed up with the perception that I would be getting paid in 4th year!

    German student midwives get paid for the whole duration of their course (3 years) to the sum of approx. 800e per month!

    Anyone who thinks that this sick move by the government, is fair, should come work as a student nurse/midwife!

    Fab job, absolutely love it, and yes, it most definitely is a vocation - anyone doing nursing or midwifery is definitely not in it for a heifty salary thats for sure!!
    Surely to god we deserve payment in 4th year - for 13 hr shifts, nights, weekends etc, no?


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