Party Leaders As Gaeilge

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Permabear wrote: »

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I have already highlghted that your figures are off.

2006 Census - Irish Language Speakers (Daily)

Daily outside the education system only: 53,471
Daily within AND outside education system: 18,677

Daily/habitual TOTAL = 72,148 habitual speakers (of these, 22,515 live in the Gaeltacht)


2006 Census - Irish Language Speakers (Weekly)

Outside education system only: 97,089
Weekly within AND outside education system: 5,772

Weekly outside the education system speakers TOTAL = 102,861

So this is the Irish speaking 'core', if you will. 175,000. this is just under 4% of the population.

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Permabear wrote: »

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I dont think anything that elaborate would be needed, Irish can be used in the dáil or for any committee now and it isent needed.

Bilingualism works well in the countries across Europe that are actually bilingual. Ours is not a bilingual nation. (Naturally, the gaelgoirs will insist otherwise—but really, who do they think they're fooling? Walk onto any street in any major town and ask for directions in Irish, and then tell me how "bilingual" we are.)

It is a national aim for Ireland to become a Bi-lingual nation, See the Offical languages Act 2003. As for walking onto a street looking for directions, I have no doubt that I could find someone with enough Irish to answer the question in a relativly short space of time.

So we should speak Irish because the bureaucrats have decreed it? I'm not convinced. (In any case, if we want to facilitate useful bilingualism in the Dáil, there is a much greater rationale for conducting proceedings in Polish.)

We should facilate the use of Irish as it is our national language and it is the aim(Supported by all political parties and the vast majority of the population) of our state to promote it.


I would love to know why you think there is a greater rational for Polish to be facilated in the Dáil. Given that is is not one of our national languages, It is not a minority language in this country and The Irish people have no interest in promoting Polish as a language.

This is all very bizarre ,considering how messed up this country is. People really think it's best if our politicians start talking Irish ?

It's bad enough we've had ten years or more of constant waffle from fianna fail ,now people want the waffle in Irish ,albeit from a different party.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Well, yes, I think that precisely because Dail Eireann is so important it should be conducted in English only, so that all its citizens can understand it. I think that within this one setting the use of Irish is not desirable.

(Perhaps it's worth adding that I think there are settings where it is very desirable: I attended a poetry night featuring John Montague before Christmas and I found the use of Irish by the MC to be very charming and in lovely harmony with the eclectic mood of the night.)

I dont see any justification for banning Irish in the Dáil, The state aims to promote the Language and to make Ireland a bi-lingual state. To do this Irish need to be normalised in all settings and the Dáil is one place that it needs to be heard especially, How can the state promote Bi-lingualism as an aim if it bans the very language it is trying to promote in the national Parliament?

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Permabear wrote: »

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Irish in schools has been poorly taught, and in many ways is still poorly taught, Other than Education and Rural and Gaelthacht affairs, the government has been(Untill recent times) generally obstructive to the promotion of the Irish language, We had a situation where people had to study Irish in school but when you left school there were no services provided by the state through Irish. It was basicly a situation of 'You have to learn it, but we wont let you use it'. The Government had a significant role to plad in the decline of the Gaelthachts too, with services provided in English only very often(this at a time when there were still people who had Irish only)

Fortunatly in the last 20 years or so, things have changed. On the whole the Government is starting to take its responcibility for promoting the Language seriously, With the Official languages act in 2003, European recognition of Irish in 2004 and the 20 year plan this year. There are still places where the government is obstructive to the promotion of the language, such as the block on recognising new Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna. But this is the exception rather than the rule these days.

That is why Irish is actually growing as a language again.:)

(as a small aside to the number of Irish speakers, Did you know that the average noumber of speakers of a language is only 7500?)

Promoting the language is one thing. Mandating it is quite another. Free citizens have the right to decide which language(s) they or their children learn and speak, just as they have the right to decide which clothes to wear, which food to eat, or which religion to practice. Government interference with citizens' basic liberties is not justifiable in any country that wishes to call itself a free democratic republic.

And how dose allowing polititons to use Irish in the Dáil 'mandate' the language? I assume you are referencing Irish in the Education system? But then again Irish isent the only subject forced on Kids is it? Not to mention that is well off topic.

Nor do I. However, I consider it impracticable to propose holding debates in the Irish language when only around 15 percent of TDs are considered able to speak that language well enough to feature on TG4 or Raidió na Gaeltachta. Theoretically, my TD goes to Dáil Éireann to represent me. How can he represent me effectively if he can neither follow debates nor contribute to them?

I am not proposing debates be held exclusivly through Irish, I am proposing that Irish be facilated and encouraged, So that any member of the house can use Irish as and when they want to.

I can't read phrasings like this without being reminded of Orwell's 1984. The state should not be in the interest of "normalising" any language. People should be free to speak whatever language they choose, without government interference.

Indeed they should, But they are not, The state has up till recently and in many areas still dose force people to speak English. People should be free to chose Irish, Be it in the Dáil or in the street. This can only be done if services are provided through Irish as and where they are wanted, That includes Gaeilscoileanna for people who want their kids brought up through Irish and services provided by the state through Irish.

That is what I mean by 'Irish needs to be normalised' Services through and the use of Irish has to be made a part of Every day life, They should be an actual option for anyone who wants it.

Permabear wrote: »

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I think that allowing people to choose the language they want to conduct their business in is an important step in setting up the Conditions for Irish to continue to grow. Services like those may not seam important, but If you are living your life through Irish as many do then the absence of those services in your chosen language forces you to speak English.

More importantly, Services like Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholaisteanna are vital to a family that wants their Children to Grow up with fluent Irish.

The Official Languages Act 2003 has imposed additional financial burdens on local authorities, which are forced by law to waste money translating documents into Irish without there being any public demand. For instance, this 2009 story illustrates how Clare County Council spent more than €30,000 translating three development plans into Irish, yet failed to sell even one single copy of the Irish-language document. I fail to see where the positive benefit is to the public when we enact requirements such as these. That's €30,000 that is not being spent on the far more essential services that cash-strapped local authorities have to maintain.

So you can find Waste in the System, I dont recall claiming that the Civil service was 100% efficient. Of course there will be areas where value for Money will not be achieved, and those areas shoule be looked at and reformed. What matters is the principle of providing services through Irish for the Irish speaking Community. In law Irish speakers have the right to services as good as those provided through English, How do you think the Language can grow if People cant use it?

That is a hugely simplistic view. Over the course of many decades, the government has provided all manner of incentives to promote and sustain the use of the Irish language in the Gaeltachts—but the language has continued to decline there, largely for cultural reasons that have little to do with state services.

In the early days of the state, As it expanded its influence(Welfare state, Rural Eletric schemes etc) Services were provided in English.
Of course there were many factors contributing to the decline of the language, but the state, rather than trying to reverse the decline, was activly contributing to it.

More recently (Since the 80's) with the establishment of Udaras na Gaelthachta this has largly stopped and now the Gaelthachts have stabalised.(though the Borders need to be redrawn to reflect the situation on the Ground)

That's all very well—but I see no point in requiring the taxpayer to bend over backwards to facilitate languages that have just 7,500 speakers. Or 72,000 "habitual speakers," for that matter.

So where is the line?
200,000? 500,000? 2,000,000?
Irish is a minority language, and is a growing language at that, The EU is very clear on the promotion of Minority languages. What I dont understand is why some people are so dead set against Linguistic Diversity.


To disregard and Disgard Irish would be compleatly out of step with the rest of Europe.

European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages

Support for Minority Languages in Europe
If you read down, you will actually see examples where Irish is used as an example of methods to promote Minority languages.

At last count, just 15 percent of TDs spoke Irish well enough to hold a coherent political debate in it. It is thus completely impracticable to propose that any TD on a whim can start debating in a language that excludes 85 percent of the house and a huge percentage of the general public.

Rubbish, There is nothing to stop any TD from using Irish, It is not Impractible, Bi-lingualism is practiced in many Parliaments accross Europe, And can just as easily be practiced here. This is the Situation now in the Dáil and it has not caused any problems.

How and where are people "forced" to speak English by the government?

Many people use Irish as their Daily language of Communication, The majority of these people do not live in the Gaelthachts, Where services are provided in English only, then people who want to use Irish are forced to Use English.

Take Gaelscoileanna as an Example, They provide a service through Irish, They are very popular, but the GOvernment has refused to Recognise any new Gaelscoileanna despite up to 16 campaigns around the Country for New Gaelscoileanna to be established that have the required numbers. This forces parents to send their Kids to English Medium Schools.

If people should be free to choose Irish, then people should also be free from the state-mandated imposition of Irish, if that is their preference.

How dose the State impose Irish on people? Is providing a service through Irish 'Imposing' Irish on people?
I am not saying that people should be forced to use Irish when conducting their business with the Government, I am saying that it should be available as an option.