Party Leaders As Gaeilge

squonk · 24-01-2011 10:09am #1

I know there's an Is Irish a Dead Language thread but i want to start a new thread to discuss a specific point and I'd take the view that it's not dead.

Did anyone see the Green Press Conference yesterday where a woman from Nuacht RTE posed a question as gaeilge to John Gormley, who then responded with the cúpla focail and handed it over to Trevor Sargent to answer. While I don't discount the argument that political ability is of higher priority, should it not be seen as a good, positive thing that a lear of a party sitting in Dail Eireann be able to have a decent command of Irish? I would expect enough to be able to give at least a decent, concise answer to a question posed.

Surely it would have been easy enough for him to have had some lessons over the past few years he's been in office and, most especially, that he could have had briefinigs/lessons that gave him the terms for such items as 'Leadership heave' and 'Departing from Government'. It's not a big ask surely?

Fundamentally, how can ti be seen as government policy to further the use of Irish within county councils and public bodies if the Minister for the Environment cannot converse in the language?

yoshytoshy · 24-01-2011 10:36am

It's more important to me ,that those in government do the right thing for the country.
It shouldn't matter what language they speak ,as long as they have other peoples interests in mind.

BKtje · 24-01-2011 11:04am

I think that the number of decent politicians that Ireland has is low enough without devastating the number further by forcing them to be able to speak Irish fluently.

Personally I wouldn't care if they spoke chinese as long as they ran the country in a decent and honest way.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 11:09am

No party leader or politician should have to learn irish. Don't forget english is our national language too!

snubbleste · 24-01-2011 11:12am

I thought Gormley did well.
He did'nt say that he did not understand, just that he was'nt as adept as Sargent in dealing with the question.

snubbleste · 24-01-2011 11:15am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No party leader or politician should have to learn irish. Don't forget english is our national language too!

Gaeilge is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

phoenix39 · 24-01-2011 11:16am

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 11:18am

snubbleste wrote: »

Gaeilge is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

Being the first official language doesn't mean it should take precedence. Especially when politicians are speaking to the public, of whom the vast majority speak no Irish.

It's bad enough forcing public servents and school children to speak Irish anyway without doing the same to politicians.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-01-2011 11:24am

If gaelgeoirs put as much effort into getting the average joe speaking Irish as they do on hobby horses such as this then there might be enough average joes speaking Irish to warrant politicians speaking Irish at press conferences.

Patser · 24-01-2011 11:27am

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

So none of the Foreign nationals that have settled in Ireland over the last 20 years should consider entering politics unless first spending 3 years down the Gaelteacht cramming Irish? Don't get me wrong I respect Irish, feel it helps greatly with our national identity and all but placing a blanket requirement on being fluent in it will simply place another barrier on people who'd like to be public representatives. We've enough teachers as TDs as is.

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 11:27am

In the main, party leaders tend to be able to speak Irish, Enda Kenny, Gilmore and Clowen are all able to speak Irish well. As is the Future SF Dáil Leader Gerry Adams(He can speak Irish but gets grief for not being fluent) I dont know about the current SF leader in the Dáil.

I think that it should be encouraged that Party leaders should speak Irish and TD's in general. I would like to see Irish being used in the Dáil more frequintly. I think Irish classes should be provided for all sitting TD's, senators etc on an optional basis.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 11:32am

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

You know that Cowen speaks Irish right?

Personally I'd rather we choose TD's based on their political rather then linguistical abilities. But hey that's just me.

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 11:33am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If gaelgeoirs put as much effort into getting the average joe speaking Irish as they do on hobby horses such as this then there might be enough average joes speaking Irish to warrant politicians speaking Irish at press conferences.

They do, there are loads of Irish language organisations all over the country promoting the Language, The status of the language in national affairs is a very important aspect of promoting it. Why learn a language that you will never use? It makes sense to promote the language in government if you want to promote it across the nation as a whole.

FOrtunatly The language is growing so arguments like this will become less and less relevant over time, All you need to do is look at the growth of the Gaelscoil movement to see this.

snubbleste · 24-01-2011 11:35am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being the first official language doesn't mean it should take precedence. Especially when politicians are speaking to the public, of whom the vast majority speak no Irish.
It's bad enough forcing public servents and school children to speak Irish anyway without doing the same to politicians.

I was responding to your post where you posted that english is our national language too. It is not. It is an official language.

Biggins · 24-01-2011 11:39am

If a TD turns up at wherever his/her work place is, is able to communicate what is needed, our wishes, worries and aspirations, I don't care if they can speak Irish or not.
It would be nice - but in no way am I going to hold it against a person if they can't.

If they can just do the job they are elected for honourably, that's a damn good start for me.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 11:40am

snubbleste wrote: »

I was responding to your post where you posted that english is our national language too. It is not. It is an official language.

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 11:42am

Patser wrote: »

So none of the Foreign nationals that have settled in Ireland over the last 20 years should consider entering politics unless first spending 3 years down the Gaelteacht cramming Irish? Don't get me wrong I respect Irish, feel it helps greatly with our national identity and all but placing a blanket requirement on being fluent in it will simply place another barrier on people who'd like to be public representatives. We've enough teachers as TDs as is.

Who said anything about a blanket requirment?

Many immigrants are very open to the Irish language, there was even an organisation called iMeasc that was set up(By Irish speaking immigrants) to help immigrants to learn Irish, they were very against arguments based around using Immigrents as a tool against the language.

Patser · 24-01-2011 11:44am

deise go deo wrote: »

Who said anything about a blanket requirment?

He did and it was his post I was responding to.

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 11:45am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

So because English is a national language too, Irish should not bhe spoken by politicians

Or maybe they should be encouraged to use both?

Why is it that there can be no space for Irish in public life?

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 11:47am

Patser wrote: »

He did and it was his post I was responding to.

Fair enough, I disagree with him, but using Immegrants aganst the language is a bad idea.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 11:50am

deise go deo wrote: »

So because English is a national language too, Irish should not bhe spoken by politicians Or maybe they should be encouraged to use both?

Why is it that there can be no space for Irish in public life?

Sure, encourage them to use both but don't force them. They shouldn't have to learn a new language just to please some uppy gaelgeoirs who can already speak English anyway.

eoinbn · 24-01-2011 11:54am

The Irish language is over represented in the Dail, especially among the 'elite' and that is one of the main reasons that it's been rammed down peoples throats.

Patser · 24-01-2011 11:56am

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

As I also said I like Irish, would like to be able to speak it better, but still when Cowen came out the other morning to announce his stepping down as FF leader and started out his speach as Gaeilge, it immediately smacked of cowardice. It seemed a case of 'I'll hide the embarrasment by not being understood [by the majority]'. It's very rare that any TD or Dail business would be conducted as Gaeilge, so whenever it is it seems the be as a smokescreen. That should be even more worrying for Gaelgoirs regards to Irish in the Political scene, that it becomes the language of the sleeveen

deise go deo · 24-01-2011 12:07pm

eoinbn wrote: »

The Irish language is over represented in the Dail, especially among the 'elite' and that is one of the main reasons that it's been rammed down peoples throats.

How is it 'Over represented' exactily? It is the first national language.

Sure, encourage them to use both but don't force them. They shouldn't have to learn a new language just to please some uppy gaelgeoirs who can already speak English anyway.

You cant 'force' someone to use a language, you can however put in place a system that facilitates and encourages the use of a language. That should be put in place in the Dáil(and senate, committees etc)

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

You did use Immigrents against the language, I can see why, but it is not advisable.
I dont support a blanket requirment, I dont think its in any way likely or workable so Lets put that to one side.

As I also said I like Irish, would like to be able to speak it better, but still when Cowen came out the other morning to announce his stepping down as FF leader and started out his speach as Gaeilge, it immediately smacked of cowardice. It seemed a case of 'I'll hide the embarrasment by not being understood [by the majority]'. It's very rare that any TD or Dail business would be conducted as Gaeilge, so whenever it is it seems the be as a smokescreen. That should be even more worrying for Gaelgoirs regards to Irish in the Political scene, that it becomes the language of the sleeveen

If you like Irish and want to speak it better, then I suggest you head over to the Gaeilge Forum, there are some very good tips and resourses there for learning the language.
Go n-éirí leat:)

Irish being used in the Dáil is not worring in the slightest, in fact it should happen more often, Irish needs to be normalised in Irish society, That means it should be used in all contexts as much as possible.

bmaxi · 24-01-2011 12:13pm

Why can't people be realistic. English is our de facto national language no matter what the romantics think. I've no objection to our politicians speaking Irish when the occasion suits but fluency should not be a requirement. In fact, when I listen to the likes of Jackie Healy Rae, I wonder how many are fluent in English.
It's bad enough our politicians spouting bull**** in a language we can all understand.

snubbleste · 24-01-2011 12:16pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

Article 8 of the Constitution states the following;
8.1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
8.2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

maxwell smart · 24-01-2011 12:22pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You know that Cowen speaks Irish right?

.

Is that what they call it these days eh? Back in my day it was called bull****, regardless of being as Gaelige or not.

Seriously though, I think it more important they speak clearly, whatecer the language.

CelticRambler · 24-01-2011 12:23pm

Why do have to be an "uppy gaelgeoir" to think that the OP's idea has merit? I can hardly be described as one of those: I live in France and speak French as my second language, but I can tell you that for me the best (and worst) moment of the year to date was listening to Brian Cowen start his hari-kari speech in Irish. Not because he's Brian Cowen, but because for that moment the eyes of the world's press were on him as an Irish leader and I was damn proud of him for using our language and reminding them that we are a nation with a heritage and identity separate to Big Brother next door.

Apart from the national pride element, I was also personally proud of myself for being able to understand him (the worst moment was thinking he was going to say "FF needs to unite behind a strong leader so I'll fight every challenger like a modern-day Cú Chulainn") because I left Ireland with a D in my Leaving Cert Irish and didn't do much more about it till I came to live in France seven years ago. The pig-ignornat prejudiced peasants :rolleyes: amongst whom I live insist: "If you speak English, you're English" ... or at least they did till they met my family. But the weak point in my defence was I couldn't lash out at them in Irish to prove my point. That is no longer the case, with special thanks to TG4 and RnaG.

My eldest son - 11 at the time - decided for himself that he wanted to go by his pure-Irish second name (Diarmaid) to make sure that everyone knew he wasn't some Anglo-Saxon-Norman-Orangey-Dutch settler (the French can't spell or pronounce 'Diarmaid' ) and though he really has only cúpla focal he has educated a whole string of secondary school teachers that never knew Ireland had a "second" language. The few that did thought it was just a dialect of English.

So, yes: of course a politician should be elected on his masterful ability to run the country, but as the voting public seem congenitally incapable of doing that

making it quasi-obligatory for the head of Government to be able to speak Irish would seem quite reasonable.

Iwasfrozen · 24-01-2011 12:23pm

snubbleste wrote: »

Article 8 of the Constitution states the following;
8.1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
8.2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

Dev's glases were, how should I say, rose tinted by the sweet colour of Irish nationalism and newly found independence. Irish is no more the national language now as it was when the constitution was wrote.

mikemac · 24-01-2011 12:32pm

John Gormley did fine, he understood the question, just passed it off to Sargent who could respond to it better

It's not like John Gormley had no clue what he was asked

P. Breathnach · 24-01-2011 12:41pm

I don't think an ability to speak Irish should be a core requirement for any political office. But it is a welcome bonus when our senior politicians have the ability, and use the language appropriately. CelticRambler's point is a good one: the use of the language can mark for people in other countries that we we have a heritage of our own, and are not merely detached Brits. [Some of our own people might also need that reminder.]

If we set aside for the moment the very important political questions that rightly dominate the agenda, I think it is pleasing that so many of our senior politicians speak Irish well.

Party Leaders As Gaeilge

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