Party Leaders As Gaeilge

Eliot Rosewater

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

Dannyboy83

People who are concerned about us marking ourselves out from the Brits need to start reading the International media.

We are the fcuking laughing stock of Europe.
We are being reported in papers from the US to the Czech Republic as a country of cowboys and imbeciles.

I assure you, nobody is mistaking us for Britain.


Requiring politicians to speak in Irish is another branch of parish pump politics.

How about we concern ourselves with POLICY??? Instead of IMAGE???:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think an ability to speak Irish should be a core requirement for any political office. But it is a welcome bonus when our senior politicians have the ability, and use the language appropriately. CelticRambler's point is a good one: the use of the language can mark for people in other countries that we we have a heritage of our own, and are not merely detached Brits. [Some of our own people might also need that reminder.]

If we set aside for the moment the very important political questions that rightly dominate the agenda, I think it is pleasing that so many of our senior politicians speak Irish well.

Why does that even focus on the radar? Are we really so culturally insecure that "not being briitish" is a good enough reason to drag up the odd cupla focal whenever the "chief" is giving a speech on something even though a tiny percent of us actually speak it?

dubhthach

I think Bertie was one of the few party leaders over the last couple years who had fairly basic Irish. In the end of the day it's nice if they do have but it's more important that they are actually competent in been politicians. Personally I have more respect for a TD who acknowledges that he doesn't have good irish then one who uses a prepared script so that he can get the "Cúpla focal" in.

RDM_83 again

In regards to the constitutional argument that Irish should be a requirement in the Dail, would that mean that up until 1999 td's should have vowed to re-unify Ireland? Many people would feel that that level of nationalism is an important part of Irish identity? ( please note not saying it is personally)



"Article 2

The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas."






Also considering the present ROI as a whole there is/was a significant ethnic/social/religious group in the New English and the Anglo-Normans of the Pale that would never have been Irish speakers why is their tradition and culture not important, if Ireland was reunified today (I hope) nobody would expect the Protestant people or their children to have to learn Irish, yet in the ROI the same group has to where is the logic and equality of that.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

The effect of that would be to make Irish a second class language in Ireland, Its true that many people cannot understand Irish, It is a minority language here, but I think we should be promoting our minority language not shuning and hiding it, (Promoating minority languages is something we are obliged to do in the EU anyway) When someone is speaking Irish in the Dáil it would be a very simple matter for Subtitles to be provided, No problem with transparency/accountibility then.

Given that this state has promoting Irish as an aim, and that this aim is supported by the vast majority of the people, then I cant see any problem with using the first national language in the Dáil.

Eliot Rosewater

deise go deo wrote: »

The effect of that would be to make Irish a second class language in Ireland

Irish is already a second class language because only a tiny minority actually speak it. People should start dealing with this reality.

deise go deo wrote: »

Its true that many people cannot understand Irish, It is a minority language here, but I think we should be promoting our minority language not shuning and hiding it

I'm not suggesting we hide it. I'm saying that it's inappropriate for a parliamentarian to intentionally make a speech in the Dail in a language that the majority of the people he or she represents don't understand. It inhibits the ability of citizens to hold parliamentarians accountable.

deise go deo wrote: »

When someone is speaking Irish in the Dáil it would be a very simple matter for Subtitles to be provided, No problem with transparency/accountibility then.

Ignoring the difficulties in translation and such, this would still be a major inconvenience. And given that the inconvenience is being proposed only to feed the hobby horse of one special interest group in society, I think it an inconvenience without justification.

CelticRambler

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

On the contrary - if politicians are answering questions in a language in which they are not entirely fluent, they are more likely to say exactly what they mean, rather than using subtle nuances to talk for twenty minutes yet avoid saying anything. This is my day-to-day reality, which I can use to my advantage when dealing with wafflers here in France. If necessary, I feign ignorance and ask them to repeat what they've just said in simpler terms, if necessary getting them down to a straight "yes" or "no".

The example above illustrates the point perfectly: put a politician under linguistic pressure and you won't get a response like "That's a very interesting question, but before I answer it let me just make clear ... " Either they'll give back the info they're asked for, or they'll pass it on to someone else. Now how long will anyone survive if they keep passing the buck?

bmaxi

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Also considering the present ROI as a whole there is/was a significant ethnic/social/religious group in the New English and the Anglo-Normans of the Pale that would never have been Irish speakers why is their tradition and culture not important, if Ireland was reunified today (I hope) nobody would expect the Protestant people or their children to have to learn Irish, yet in the ROI the same group has to where is the logic and equality of that.

[/INDENT]

Quite a few of our Protestant leaders, including eminent churchmen were and are fluent Irish speakers, indeed I recall a TV programme on Christ Church Cathedral where they mentioned that services are regularly conducted entirely through Irish.
I believe the Irish language should continue to be taught in all schools and should be given a special place in our society. What I don't agree with is the compulsory factor and the pie in the sky mentality that sees Irish as universally spoken in the country. Those days, like dancing at the crossroads, are with O'Leary in the grave.

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why does that even focus on the radar? Are we really so culturally insecure that "not being briitish" is a good enough reason to drag up the odd cupla focal whenever the "chief" is giving a speech on something even though a tiny percent of us actually speak it?

Despite all the bad stuff that has happened in the past few years, I still quite like the idea of being Irish. It is a different cultural heritage from any other (with its downside as well as its upside).

At an anecdotal level, I can tell you that when I travel outside the country, I often make the effort to let people know I am Irish, and it seems to have a good effect on how I am regarded.

Please accept my assurance that I am not in any way anti-British. It's simply a fact that I am not British, and I prefer not to be perceived wrongly. Our habitual use of English can give the impression to many people that we are part of a British cultural unit (not the best terminology, but I can't immediately find a better way to express it). The Irish language is one indicator of how we should be regarded as a bit different and unique.

The disparaging tone in which you dismiss the use of Irish, and the reasons why I think it a good thing, suggest that there is some basis for my parenthetical comment that some of our own people might also need that reminder.

southsiderosie

Patser wrote: »

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

Actually, there are a lot of immigrants who would like their children to learn Irish because they think it will make them more accepted as fellow Irish citizens. Unfortunately, I think a lot of them don't realize how many Irish people don't speak Irish.

In some ways, if speaking Irish were considered a critical component of national identity, integration would be easier for people. The Catalans are a good example: if you live in Catalonia and you learn the language enough to get a job and participate in civic life, you are (or at least your children will be) Catalan. But since not speaking Irish is not a barrier to political, economic or social integration, it's not a way for immigrants to demonstrate their "Irishness".

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Despite all the bad stuff that has happened in the past few years, I still quite like the idea of being Irish. It is a different cultural heritage from any other (with its downside as well as its upside).

At an anecdotal level, I can tell you that when I travel outside the country, I often make the effort to let people know I am Irish, and it seems to have a good effect on how I am regarded.

Please accept my assurance that I am not in any way anti-British. It's simply a fact that I am not British, and I prefer not to be perceived wrongly. Our habitual use of English can give the impression to many people that we are part of a British cultural unit (not the best terminology, but I can't immediately find a better way to express it). The Irish language is one indicator of how we should be regarded as a bit different and unique.

The disparaging tone in which you dismiss the use of Irish, and the reasons why I think it a good thing, suggest that there is some basis for my parenthetical comment that some of our own people might also need that reminder.

I quite like being Irish as well but I would never go out of my way to let a passing foreigner know I was Irish when in another country. Unless said passing foreigner is racist there really isn't a point.

Any way it's not like us and the Brits are the only english speakers around. There are also the Americans, Australians, Canadians, South Africans and hell even Falkland Islanders.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Irish is already a second class language because only a tiny minority actually speak it. People should start dealing with this reality.

Irish is, as I have said, a minority language, But you need to deal with the reality that minority languages are to be promoted not shunned as second class languages.

I'm not suggesting we hide it. I'm saying that it's inappropriate for a parliamentarian to intentionally make a speech in the Dail in a language that the majority of the people he or she represents don't understand. It inhibits the ability of citizens to hold parliamentarians accountable.

I have already stated that this can easily be gotten around, The vast majority of Irish citizens can read English can they not, now given that the vast majority of political speeches will have a written text prepared beforhand, then providing subtitles in English can easily be done, There is no issue with Accountably.

Ignoring the difficulties in translation and such, this would still be a major inconvenience. And given that the inconvenience is being proposed only to feed the hobby horse of one special interest group in society, I think it an inconvenience without justification.

What dificulties in translation? These are overcome on a daily basis in other parliaments across Europe, In many countries Bi-lingualism is a simple fact of life, it dosent inhibit accountibly nor is it an inconvience, it is done in many places and could be easily done here. Given that the state has the promotion of Irish as an aim, it is justified.

P. Breathnach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

People who are concerned about us marking ourselves out from the Brits need to start reading the International media.

We are the fcuking laughing stock of Europe.

Don't overstate things. Yes, our image has suffered greatly in the bast couple of years, but outside political and financial circles, most people are not that interested in our travails. And we need to remember that a great deal of life happens outside those rarified circles.

In any event, I have no wish to hide. If I visit France (as I often do) and somebody I meet there wants me to discuss what went wrong in Ireland, I am quite willing to converse about it.

Requiring politicians to speak in Irish is another branch of parish pump politics.

I don't support a requirement that our politicians speak Irish. My position is that I see it as a bonus if they can.

How about we concern ourselves with POLICY??? Instead of IMAGE???:rolleyes:

Yet you opened your argument by expressing a concern about how we are perceived: image.

Yes, of course it is vitally important that we get some good policy and practice in place. But that does not exclude image, because having a good image is part of the package.

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I quite like being Irish as well but I would never go out of my way to let a passing foreigner know I was Irish when in another country. Unless said passing foreigner is racist there really isn't a point.

Any travel I do, now that I am retired, is purely recreational. It adds to my enjoyment if I am taken for what I am rather than as something else. That's point enough for me.

Any way it's not like us and the Brits are the only english speakers around. There are also the Americans, Australians, Canadians, South Africans and hell even Falkland Islanders.

My experience has been that I am regularly taken as being English (which for most people in continental Europe seems synonymous with British). It seems to me that relatively few people confuse us with English-speakers from more distant places.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My experience has been that I am regularly taken as being English (which for most people in continental Europe seems synonymous with British). It seems to me that relatively few people confuse us with English-speakers from more distant places.

That was my experience too, I remember a piticularly annoying waiter in Paris asked me what part of England I was from, When I said I was Irish he just said, Its the same thing isent it.
Ah if only I had as much Irish then as I do now.:cool:

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't overstate things.

If you have any family living abroad, I suggest you ask them for their opinions.
If it's anything like the stories I've heard, you'll see that I'm not overstating anything.
Our reputation is in tatters.

Yes, our image has suffered greatly in the bast couple of years, but outside political and financial circles, most people are not that interested in our travails.

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you believe this, this is simply not true.
Ordinary people in all walks of life have plenty to say about Ireland and many of them are very angry with us, others just think we are morons.

In any event, I have no wish to hide. If I visit France (as I often do) and somebody I meet there wants me to discuss what went wrong in Ireland, I am quite willing to converse about it.

That's the problem - people aren't asking questions, they've made their minds up about us.
I'm talking about ordinary German/British people on the street, Czech Doctors, not high level politicians.

I don't support a requirement that our politicians speak Irish. My position is that I see it as a bonus if they can.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't see it as a plus if a politician can speak Irish, although I would see it as a plus if they could speak Chinese

Yet you opened your argument by expressing a concern about how we are perceived: image.

Precisely.
A disturbingly large amount of people note and praise the fact that Cowen can ramble a few words as gaeilge, yet the vast majority of people take little notice of the fact that Bruton is a qualified economist or Ruairi Quinn has a great track record etc.

If you put two doctors in front of joe soap, tell him one is a master in his field whereas the other can speak a few words of Irish, people will choose the doctor that is a master in his field.
When it comes to politicians, they'll choose the equivalent doctor who speak a few words of Irish.

Yes, of course it is vitally important that we get some good policy and practice in place. But that does not exclude image, because having a good image is part of the package.

Yes, but which image?

A small minority of people in Ireland give a damn about the perception that a politician can utter a few words of Irish. It's irrelevant.

The overwhelming majority of people inside and outside Ireland care about the image of the politician as competent and non-corrupt first and foremost.

squonk

OP here! I wanted to amend my original post but got dragged away on something else. What i wanted to add was that I have no issue with foreign nationals getting into politics who cannot speak Irish, even as a party leader. They wouldn't have gotten irish lessons in school and grown up with the language. I'd appreciate them trying however.

We have to assume that if a politician is voted into office that his constituents reckoned he was the best man for the job. Lets assume that this is the case, as opposed to what actually happens! If that politician is Irish, has grown up in ireland and has done exams in the language, and is a party leader, then I don't think it's asking very much that they be able to converse in irish, especially as they are being paid quite well for what they do and their workplace will readily provide lessons, so they don't need to pop out after work to make classes like the rest of us.

TG4 has done great work to make Irish available in a format where it is acceptable by most people around the country. I'm not a gaelgoir but I can certainly say that my irish has improved thanks to TG4. I do intend to take up irish lessons and try to become conversant in the language. I think it's important to keep the language alive and I think it's important that politicians can be seen to converse in the language. It should be something that we're not necessarily proud of, but something we use and if the people running the country start to get to the point where they can't speak the language over time then funding drops and it slips further down the priority list. That would be sad to see happen.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you have any family living abroad, I suggest you ask them for their opinions.
If it's anything like the stories I've heard, you'll see that I'm not overstating anything.
Our reputation is in tatters.

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you believe this, this is simply not true.
Ordinary people in all walks of life have plenty to say about Ireland and many of them are very angry with us, others just think we are morons.

Our governments reputation may be in tatters but we as a people are not.
I have not spoken to many non nationals on the issue, but I find it hard to believe that your average joe soap in France has such an opinion of the Irish people, The Irish government maybe, but then again, Irish people also hold the government in the same regard.

Precisely.
A disturbingly large amount of people note and praise the fact that Cowen can ramble a few words as gaeilge, yet the vast majority of people take little notice of the fact that Bruton is a qualified economist or Ruairi Quinn has a great track record etc.

Cowen can speak Irish quite fluently, and should get credit for his ability to speak Irish, Dose that mean I would vote for him because he can speak Irish? No, of course not, (The oppisition can speak Irish too;))
I think you are wildly over stating things, The view you are putting forward is almost cartoonish in its Nature.

A small minority of people in Ireland give a damn about the perception that a politician can utter a few words of Irish. It's irrelevant.

The overwhelming majority of people inside and outside Ireland care about the image of the politician as competent and non-corrupt first and foremost.

People wanting competent and non-corupt politicions is a given, I dont see why you are even bringing it up in this debate.

Unless you have the view that the two things as somehow in compition with each other?

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

People wanting competent and non-corupt politicions is a given, I dont see why you are even bringing it up in this debate.

Unless you have the view that the two things as somehow in compition with each other?

My view is that, we've as good as been through a war in Ireland for the last 3 years, and the 2 nasty ones are coming up.
After everything this country has been through in the last 3 years, it's borderline infantile to suggest that their ability to speak Irish even matters in the slightest, any more than their ability to cook boiled eggs.

What is it going to take to get people to accept only a tiny minority actually speak or care about the Irish language?
It's a childish distraction from the REAL issues.

People are concerned about having health insurance, about having a job, about a roof over their heads.
The vast majority of people on this island are quite content speaking English even to not bother learning Irish.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My view is that, we've as good as been through a war in Ireland for the last 3 years, and the 2 nasty ones are coming up.
After everything this country has been through in the last 3 years, it's borderline infantile to suggest that their ability to speak Irish even matters in the slightest, any more than their ability to cook boiled eggs.

It matters to quite a few people, That the vast majority of party leaders actually do speak Irish well shows that they feel there is a need to.

What is it going to take to get people to accept only a tiny minority actually speak or care about the Irish language?

Evidience? I have been asking for evidience on this from you and other's for quite some time now, I have provided several piecies of evidience that show that people do suport the language, Now I will ask again, You claim that people dont care about the language, Where is your evidience?

gandalf

I think it is nice that some of our politicians speak Irish. However it has to be acknowledged that the majority of people on this island do not speak Irish and do not really want to learn to speak Irish.

I certainly do not think that our politicians should be required to speak Irish. I actually believe if they are to have a second or third language it should be relevant to Ireland of the 21st Century, they should speak French or German or even Chinese as these will be the languages that we deal with on an international basis as well as English.

Now this irrational shunning of Irish comes from the fact that people in this state have no choice but to study it in school. I believe if it was made optional in 2nd level you would have a far more vibrant love of the language because those who choose to continue studying it would have a genuine love for the language and those that didn't take it in secondary level may be more inclined to taking it up later on in life as it wasn't shoved down their throats when they were in school.

Dannyboy83

Evidience? I have been asking for evidience on this from you and other's for quite some time now, I have provided several piecies of evidience that show that people do suport the language, Now I will ask again, You claim that people dont care about the language, Where is your evidience?

Been there, done that.
See your thread "The Status of Irish", where you ignored the evidence provided on countless occasions.

deise go deo wrote: »

It matters to quite a few people, That the vast majority of party leaders actually do speak Irish well shows that they feel there is a need to.

I'd wager there is a larger proportion of people in Ireland (and outside it) who wish Irish politicians had a grasp of Polish/Chinese.
Politicians ought to be politicians, leave translating to the translators.

BKtje

That was my experience too, I remember a piticularly annoying waiter in Paris asked me what part of England I was from, When I said I was Irish he just said, Its the same thing isent it.

In Switzerland I've found that when people hear you speaking english they will assume that you are english (not american, at least where I live) until you explain that you're Irish. They will generally then know that Ireland is a separate country and will also generally make a comment like, "isn't there a crisis over there or something".

My point is that anyone that is watching politics or has any kind of clue about the international scene will know that Ireland is separate from the UK, anyone else isn't going to be convinced by some Irish speaking politicians as they wouldn't pay attention to that part of the news anyway or assume that we are like wales or something with our own independent language but still part of the UK.

Personally, I think parts of the Irish constitution are extremely out of date (such as Irish being the "primary language") with modern Ireland and needs to be overhauled (along with many laws in general). Modern Ireland is very different than the Ireland in 1937 and changes should be made to acknowledge this.

bmaxi

deise go deo wrote: »

That was my experience too, I remember a piticularly annoying waiter in Paris asked me what part of England I was from, When I said I was Irish he just said, Its the same thing isent it.
Ah if only I had as much Irish then as I do now.:cool:

Why? So you could tear him off a strip as Gaeilge? What would that achieve except some sort of smug self satisfaction, which you could probably equally achieve by putting on a Kerry accent and tearing him off in French.

Eliot Rosewater

CelticRambler wrote: »

On the contrary - if politicians are answering questions in a language in which they are not entirely fluent, they are more likely to say exactly what they mean, rather than using subtle nuances to talk for twenty minutes yet avoid saying anything.

That's not relevant though, as the only politicians communicating in Irish in the Dail are (presumably) entirely fluent, or fluent to the point where the can comfortably say what they want to.

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish is, as I have said, a minority language, But you need to deal with the reality that minority languages are to be promoted not shunned as second class languages.

I'm not suggesting we shun Irish. I'm merely arguing that the Dail is one particular place where the use of Irish is not very appropriate. How are you interpreting that as some all-out attack on Irish?

deise go deo wrote: »

I have already stated that this can easily be gotten around, The vast majority of Irish citizens can read English can they not, now given that the vast majority of political speeches will have a written text prepared beforhand, then providing subtitles in English can easily be done, There is no issue with Accountably.

It's still inconvenient. It makes it harder to quote politicians in print (books, newspapers). It makes it impossible to quote them on the radio. It's an annoyance for viewers of the Dail who have to read subtitles. And all of it for no reason but, as I said, to feed some peoples' cultural nationalism. I see many negatives and few positives.

P. Breathnach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

... I'm not suggesting we shun Irish. I'm merely arguing that the Dail is one particular place where the use of Irish is not very appropriate....

That's quite disingenuous: you want the Irish language excluded from the most important forum of the state. That's tantamount to saying that we should not shun it, but we should ignore it instead.

I am not aware that the use of Irish in the Dáil has ever been an obstruction to conducting the business of the state. Your going after it now, in this context, looks like spoiling for a fight that nobody is actually seeking.

CelticRambler

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My view is that, we've as good as been through a war in Ireland for the last 3 years, and the 2 nasty ones are coming up.
After everything this country has been through in the last 3 years, it's borderline infantile to suggest that their ability to speak Irish even matters in the slightest, any more than their ability to cook boiled eggs.

I think you're wrong there. It's not fluency in the language that would make a difference, it's the attitude that goes with the personality-type that thinks we are different because we speak Irish. Language and social norms go hand in hand. A huge amount of "what went wrong" in Ireland also went wrong in Britain and the US but it did not go wrong in non-English speaking countries. The French refer to it as the "Anglo-Saxon economy".

Language is not just a way of speaking but a way of thinking too. You can sit down with a social and political geography textbook and learn all kinds of things about other countries, but you never really know them till you walk on their ground and speak their language. Look at the difference between "foreign" films and the majority of movies shown in Irish mulitplexes.

We've just had the French minister for education on today saying that children as young as 3 should be taught English. That's not to undermine French as the national language, but to be able to fully exploit business opportunities in anglophone countries. Know your enemy and all that.

Even at 1000km distance, I support the compulsory learning of Irish (and I'd make it compulsory to learning at least two other languages in primary school too) because only then can you get yourself right away from the situation you've been born-and-bred into and come back with an accurate opinion of what's good and bad, and bring in fresh ideas from elsewhere. Apart from the matter of national pride, I support the OP's suggestion because whatever other qualifications the politician might have, by learning and communicating in Irish, he would be showing a willingness to go beyond the quick-and-easy option.

Biggins

CelticRambler wrote: »

...he would be showing a willingness to go beyond the quick-and-easy option.

Point of order.

What quick and easy option!

I've been politically active for some time now (many years) and I have yet to find this quick and easy option.
That pretence of one supposedly existing is naive to say the least!

And you think shoving a language that will for all certainly be useless in Europe and elsewhere, is useful and practicable?
Madness, pure madness - out-dated thinking madness at that.

Permabear

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