Party Leaders As Gaeilge

squonk

I know there's an Is Irish a Dead Language thread but i want to start a new thread to discuss a specific point and I'd take the view that it's not dead.

Did anyone see the Green Press Conference yesterday where a woman from Nuacht RTE posed a question as gaeilge to John Gormley, who then responded with the cúpla focail and handed it over to Trevor Sargent to answer. While I don't discount the argument that political ability is of higher priority, should it not be seen as a good, positive thing that a lear of a party sitting in Dail Eireann be able to have a decent command of Irish? I would expect enough to be able to give at least a decent, concise answer to a question posed.

Surely it would have been easy enough for him to have had some lessons over the past few years he's been in office and, most especially, that he could have had briefinigs/lessons that gave him the terms for such items as 'Leadership heave' and 'Departing from Government'. It's not a big ask surely?

Fundamentally, how can ti be seen as government policy to further the use of Irish within county councils and public bodies if the Minister for the Environment cannot converse in the language?

yoshytoshy

It's more important to me ,that those in government do the right thing for the country.
It shouldn't matter what language they speak ,as long as they have other peoples interests in mind.

BKtje

I think that the number of decent politicians that Ireland has is low enough without devastating the number further by forcing them to be able to speak Irish fluently.

Personally I wouldn't care if they spoke chinese as long as they ran the country in a decent and honest way.

Iwasfrozen

No party leader or politician should have to learn irish. Don't forget english is our national language too!

snubbleste

I thought Gormley did well.
He did'nt say that he did not understand, just that he was'nt as adept as Sargent in dealing with the question.

snubbleste

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No party leader or politician should have to learn irish. Don't forget english is our national language too!

Gaeilge is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

phoenix39

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

Iwasfrozen

snubbleste wrote: »

Gaeilge is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

Being the first official language doesn't mean it should take precedence. Especially when politicians are speaking to the public, of whom the vast majority speak no Irish.

It's bad enough forcing public servents and school children to speak Irish anyway without doing the same to politicians.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If gaelgeoirs put as much effort into getting the average joe speaking Irish as they do on hobby horses such as this then there might be enough average joes speaking Irish to warrant politicians speaking Irish at press conferences.

Patser

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

So none of the Foreign nationals that have settled in Ireland over the last 20 years should consider entering politics unless first spending 3 years down the Gaelteacht cramming Irish? Don't get me wrong I respect Irish, feel it helps greatly with our national identity and all but placing a blanket requirement on being fluent in it will simply place another barrier on people who'd like to be public representatives. We've enough teachers as TDs as is.

deise go deo

In the main, party leaders tend to be able to speak Irish, Enda Kenny, Gilmore and Clowen are all able to speak Irish well. As is the Future SF Dáil Leader Gerry Adams(He can speak Irish but gets grief for not being fluent) I dont know about the current SF leader in the Dáil.

I think that it should be encouraged that Party leaders should speak Irish and TD's in general. I would like to see Irish being used in the Dáil more frequintly. I think Irish classes should be provided for all sitting TD's, senators etc on an optional basis.

Iwasfrozen

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

You know that Cowen speaks Irish right?

Personally I'd rather we choose TD's based on their political rather then linguistical abilities. But hey that's just me.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If gaelgeoirs put as much effort into getting the average joe speaking Irish as they do on hobby horses such as this then there might be enough average joes speaking Irish to warrant politicians speaking Irish at press conferences.

They do, there are loads of Irish language organisations all over the country promoting the Language, The status of the language in national affairs is a very important aspect of promoting it. Why learn a language that you will never use? It makes sense to promote the language in government if you want to promote it across the nation as a whole.

FOrtunatly The language is growing so arguments like this will become less and less relevant over time, All you need to do is look at the growth of the Gaelscoil movement to see this.

snubbleste

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being the first official language doesn't mean it should take precedence. Especially when politicians are speaking to the public, of whom the vast majority speak no Irish.
It's bad enough forcing public servents and school children to speak Irish anyway without doing the same to politicians.

I was responding to your post where you posted that english is our national language too. It is not. It is an official language.

Biggins

If a TD turns up at wherever his/her work place is, is able to communicate what is needed, our wishes, worries and aspirations, I don't care if they can speak Irish or not.
It would be nice - but in no way am I going to hold it against a person if they can't.

If they can just do the job they are elected for honourably, that's a damn good start for me.

Iwasfrozen

snubbleste wrote: »

I was responding to your post where you posted that english is our national language too. It is not. It is an official language.

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

deise go deo

Patser wrote: »

So none of the Foreign nationals that have settled in Ireland over the last 20 years should consider entering politics unless first spending 3 years down the Gaelteacht cramming Irish? Don't get me wrong I respect Irish, feel it helps greatly with our national identity and all but placing a blanket requirement on being fluent in it will simply place another barrier on people who'd like to be public representatives. We've enough teachers as TDs as is.

Who said anything about a blanket requirment?

Many immigrants are very open to the Irish language, there was even an organisation called iMeasc that was set up(By Irish speaking immigrants) to help immigrants to learn Irish, they were very against arguments based around using Immigrents as a tool against the language.

Patser

deise go deo wrote: »

Who said anything about a blanket requirment?

He did and it was his post I was responding to.

phoenix39 wrote: »

Every single TD in the Dáil should be able to speak fluently in Irish. It might just force the lazier ones out and bring in people who have an actual respect and concern for this country and its future.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

So because English is a national language too, Irish should not bhe spoken by politicians Or maybe they should be encouraged to use both?

Why is it that there can be no space for Irish in public life?

deise go deo

Patser wrote: »

He did and it was his post I was responding to.

Fair enough, I disagree with him, but using Immegrants aganst the language is a bad idea.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

So because English is a national language too, Irish should not bhe spoken by politicians Or maybe they should be encouraged to use both?

Why is it that there can be no space for Irish in public life?

Sure, encourage them to use both but don't force them. They shouldn't have to learn a new language just to please some uppy gaelgeoirs who can already speak English anyway.

eoinbn

The Irish language is over represented in the Dail, especially among the 'elite' and that is one of the main reasons that it's been rammed down peoples throats.

Patser

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

As I also said I like Irish, would like to be able to speak it better, but still when Cowen came out the other morning to announce his stepping down as FF leader and started out his speach as Gaeilge, it immediately smacked of cowardice. It seemed a case of 'I'll hide the embarrasment by not being understood [by the majority]'. It's very rare that any TD or Dail business would be conducted as Gaeilge, so whenever it is it seems the be as a smokescreen. That should be even more worrying for Gaelgoirs regards to Irish in the Political scene, that it becomes the language of the sleeveen

deise go deo

eoinbn wrote: »

The Irish language is over represented in the Dail, especially among the 'elite' and that is one of the main reasons that it's been rammed down peoples throats.

How is it 'Over represented' exactily? It is the first national language.

Sure, encourage them to use both but don't force them. They shouldn't have to learn a new language just to please some uppy gaelgeoirs who can already speak English anyway.

You cant 'force' someone to use a language, you can however put in place a system that facilitates and encourages the use of a language. That should be put in place in the Dáil(and senate, committees etc)

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

You did use Immigrents against the language, I can see why, but it is not advisable.
I dont support a blanket requirment, I dont think its in any way likely or workable so Lets put that to one side.

As I also said I like Irish, would like to be able to speak it better, but still when Cowen came out the other morning to announce his stepping down as FF leader and started out his speach as Gaeilge, it immediately smacked of cowardice. It seemed a case of 'I'll hide the embarrasment by not being understood [by the majority]'. It's very rare that any TD or Dail business would be conducted as Gaeilge, so whenever it is it seems the be as a smokescreen. That should be even more worrying for Gaelgoirs regards to Irish in the Political scene, that it becomes the language of the sleeveen

If you like Irish and want to speak it better, then I suggest you head over to the Gaeilge Forum, there are some very good tips and resourses there for learning the language.
Go n-éirí leat:)

Irish being used in the Dáil is not worring in the slightest, in fact it should happen more often, Irish needs to be normalised in Irish society, That means it should be used in all contexts as much as possible.

bmaxi

Why can't people be realistic. English is our de facto national language no matter what the romantics think. I've no objection to our politicians speaking Irish when the occasion suits but fluency should not be a requirement. In fact, when I listen to the likes of Jackie Healy Rae, I wonder how many are fluent in English.
It's bad enough our politicians spouting bull**** in a language we can all understand.

snubbleste

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is, English is as much our national language as Irish. Perhaps more so.

Article 8 of the Constitution states the following;
8.1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
8.2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

maxwell smart

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You know that Cowen speaks Irish right?

.

Is that what they call it these days eh? Back in my day it was called bull****, regardless of being as Gaelige or not.

Seriously though, I think it more important they speak clearly, whatecer the language.

CelticRambler

Why do have to be an "uppy gaelgeoir" to think that the OP's idea has merit? I can hardly be described as one of those: I live in France and speak French as my second language, but I can tell you that for me the best (and worst) moment of the year to date was listening to Brian Cowen start his hari-kari speech in Irish. Not because he's Brian Cowen, but because for that moment the eyes of the world's press were on him as an Irish leader and I was damn proud of him for using our language and reminding them that we are a nation with a heritage and identity separate to Big Brother next door.

Apart from the national pride element, I was also personally proud of myself for being able to understand him (the worst moment was thinking he was going to say "FF needs to unite behind a strong leader so I'll fight every challenger like a modern-day Cú Chulainn") because I left Ireland with a D in my Leaving Cert Irish and didn't do much more about it till I came to live in France seven years ago. The pig-ignornat prejudiced peasants :rolleyes: amongst whom I live insist: "If you speak English, you're English" ... or at least they did till they met my family. But the weak point in my defence was I couldn't lash out at them in Irish to prove my point. That is no longer the case, with special thanks to TG4 and RnaG.

My eldest son - 11 at the time - decided for himself that he wanted to go by his pure-Irish second name (Diarmaid) to make sure that everyone knew he wasn't some Anglo-Saxon-Norman-Orangey-Dutch settler (the French can't spell or pronounce 'Diarmaid' ) and though he really has only cúpla focal he has educated a whole string of secondary school teachers that never knew Ireland had a "second" language. The few that did thought it was just a dialect of English.

So, yes: of course a politician should be elected on his masterful ability to run the country, but as the voting public seem congenitally incapable of doing that making it quasi-obligatory for the head of Government to be able to speak Irish would seem quite reasonable.

Iwasfrozen

snubbleste wrote: »

Article 8 of the Constitution states the following;
8.1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
8.2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

Dev's glases were, how should I say, rose tinted by the sweet colour of Irish nationalism and newly found independence. Irish is no more the national language now as it was when the constitution was wrote.

mikemac

John Gormley did fine, he understood the question, just passed it off to Sargent who could respond to it better

It's not like John Gormley had no clue what he was asked

P. Breathnach

I don't think an ability to speak Irish should be a core requirement for any political office. But it is a welcome bonus when our senior politicians have the ability, and use the language appropriately. CelticRambler's point is a good one: the use of the language can mark for people in other countries that we we have a heritage of our own, and are not merely detached Brits. [Some of our own people might also need that reminder.]

If we set aside for the moment the very important political questions that rightly dominate the agenda, I think it is pleasing that so many of our senior politicians speak Irish well.

Eliot Rosewater

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

Dannyboy83

People who are concerned about us marking ourselves out from the Brits need to start reading the International media.

We are the fcuking laughing stock of Europe.
We are being reported in papers from the US to the Czech Republic as a country of cowboys and imbeciles.

I assure you, nobody is mistaking us for Britain.


Requiring politicians to speak in Irish is another branch of parish pump politics.

How about we concern ourselves with POLICY??? Instead of IMAGE???:rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think an ability to speak Irish should be a core requirement for any political office. But it is a welcome bonus when our senior politicians have the ability, and use the language appropriately. CelticRambler's point is a good one: the use of the language can mark for people in other countries that we we have a heritage of our own, and are not merely detached Brits. [Some of our own people might also need that reminder.]

If we set aside for the moment the very important political questions that rightly dominate the agenda, I think it is pleasing that so many of our senior politicians speak Irish well.

Why does that even focus on the radar? Are we really so culturally insecure that "not being briitish" is a good enough reason to drag up the odd cupla focal whenever the "chief" is giving a speech on something even though a tiny percent of us actually speak it?

dubhthach

I think Bertie was one of the few party leaders over the last couple years who had fairly basic Irish. In the end of the day it's nice if they do have but it's more important that they are actually competent in been politicians. Personally I have more respect for a TD who acknowledges that he doesn't have good irish then one who uses a prepared script so that he can get the "Cúpla focal" in.

RDM_83 again

In regards to the constitutional argument that Irish should be a requirement in the Dail, would that mean that up until 1999 td's should have vowed to re-unify Ireland? Many people would feel that that level of nationalism is an important part of Irish identity? ( please note not saying it is personally)



"Article 2

The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas."






Also considering the present ROI as a whole there is/was a significant ethnic/social/religious group in the New English and the Anglo-Normans of the Pale that would never have been Irish speakers why is their tradition and culture not important, if Ireland was reunified today (I hope) nobody would expect the Protestant people or their children to have to learn Irish, yet in the ROI the same group has to where is the logic and equality of that.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

The effect of that would be to make Irish a second class language in Ireland, Its true that many people cannot understand Irish, It is a minority language here, but I think we should be promoting our minority language not shuning and hiding it, (Promoating minority languages is something we are obliged to do in the EU anyway) When someone is speaking Irish in the Dáil it would be a very simple matter for Subtitles to be provided, No problem with transparency/accountibility then.

Given that this state has promoting Irish as an aim, and that this aim is supported by the vast majority of the people, then I cant see any problem with using the first national language in the Dáil.

Eliot Rosewater

deise go deo wrote: »

The effect of that would be to make Irish a second class language in Ireland

Irish is already a second class language because only a tiny minority actually speak it. People should start dealing with this reality.

deise go deo wrote: »

Its true that many people cannot understand Irish, It is a minority language here, but I think we should be promoting our minority language not shuning and hiding it

I'm not suggesting we hide it. I'm saying that it's inappropriate for a parliamentarian to intentionally make a speech in the Dail in a language that the majority of the people he or she represents don't understand. It inhibits the ability of citizens to hold parliamentarians accountable.

deise go deo wrote: »

When someone is speaking Irish in the Dáil it would be a very simple matter for Subtitles to be provided, No problem with transparency/accountibility then.

Ignoring the difficulties in translation and such, this would still be a major inconvenience. And given that the inconvenience is being proposed only to feed the hobby horse of one special interest group in society, I think it an inconvenience without justification.

CelticRambler

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think the Dail proceedings should be accessible to all. When a TD gives a speech in Irish myself and about 90% of other viewers can't understand it, especially because the Irish in use will be a little more complex than "An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas?"

On the other hand, there is probably no citizen of this country who can't understand English. Conducting parliament in English is the only surefire way of ensuring that the people it represents can understand what is happening and thus hold it accountable.

On the contrary - if politicians are answering questions in a language in which they are not entirely fluent, they are more likely to say exactly what they mean, rather than using subtle nuances to talk for twenty minutes yet avoid saying anything. This is my day-to-day reality, which I can use to my advantage when dealing with wafflers here in France. If necessary, I feign ignorance and ask them to repeat what they've just said in simpler terms, if necessary getting them down to a straight "yes" or "no".

The example above illustrates the point perfectly: put a politician under linguistic pressure and you won't get a response like "That's a very interesting question, but before I answer it let me just make clear ... " Either they'll give back the info they're asked for, or they'll pass it on to someone else. Now how long will anyone survive if they keep passing the buck?

bmaxi

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Also considering the present ROI as a whole there is/was a significant ethnic/social/religious group in the New English and the Anglo-Normans of the Pale that would never have been Irish speakers why is their tradition and culture not important, if Ireland was reunified today (I hope) nobody would expect the Protestant people or their children to have to learn Irish, yet in the ROI the same group has to where is the logic and equality of that.

[/INDENT]

Quite a few of our Protestant leaders, including eminent churchmen were and are fluent Irish speakers, indeed I recall a TV programme on Christ Church Cathedral where they mentioned that services are regularly conducted entirely through Irish.
I believe the Irish language should continue to be taught in all schools and should be given a special place in our society. What I don't agree with is the compulsory factor and the pie in the sky mentality that sees Irish as universally spoken in the country. Those days, like dancing at the crossroads, are with O'Leary in the grave.

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why does that even focus on the radar? Are we really so culturally insecure that "not being briitish" is a good enough reason to drag up the odd cupla focal whenever the "chief" is giving a speech on something even though a tiny percent of us actually speak it?

Despite all the bad stuff that has happened in the past few years, I still quite like the idea of being Irish. It is a different cultural heritage from any other (with its downside as well as its upside).

At an anecdotal level, I can tell you that when I travel outside the country, I often make the effort to let people know I am Irish, and it seems to have a good effect on how I am regarded.

Please accept my assurance that I am not in any way anti-British. It's simply a fact that I am not British, and I prefer not to be perceived wrongly. Our habitual use of English can give the impression to many people that we are part of a British cultural unit (not the best terminology, but I can't immediately find a better way to express it). The Irish language is one indicator of how we should be regarded as a bit different and unique.

The disparaging tone in which you dismiss the use of Irish, and the reasons why I think it a good thing, suggest that there is some basis for my parenthetical comment that some of our own people might also need that reminder.

southsiderosie

Patser wrote: »

I'm not using immigrants against the language, I'm just saying that blanket requirements for a language that the majority still connot speak fluently will build resentment against the language and place barriers for the majority (immigrants were the obvious example).

Actually, there are a lot of immigrants who would like their children to learn Irish because they think it will make them more accepted as fellow Irish citizens. Unfortunately, I think a lot of them don't realize how many Irish people don't speak Irish.

In some ways, if speaking Irish were considered a critical component of national identity, integration would be easier for people. The Catalans are a good example: if you live in Catalonia and you learn the language enough to get a job and participate in civic life, you are (or at least your children will be) Catalan. But since not speaking Irish is not a barrier to political, economic or social integration, it's not a way for immigrants to demonstrate their "Irishness".

Iwasfrozen

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Despite all the bad stuff that has happened in the past few years, I still quite like the idea of being Irish. It is a different cultural heritage from any other (with its downside as well as its upside).

At an anecdotal level, I can tell you that when I travel outside the country, I often make the effort to let people know I am Irish, and it seems to have a good effect on how I am regarded.

Please accept my assurance that I am not in any way anti-British. It's simply a fact that I am not British, and I prefer not to be perceived wrongly. Our habitual use of English can give the impression to many people that we are part of a British cultural unit (not the best terminology, but I can't immediately find a better way to express it). The Irish language is one indicator of how we should be regarded as a bit different and unique.

The disparaging tone in which you dismiss the use of Irish, and the reasons why I think it a good thing, suggest that there is some basis for my parenthetical comment that some of our own people might also need that reminder.

I quite like being Irish as well but I would never go out of my way to let a passing foreigner know I was Irish when in another country. Unless said passing foreigner is racist there really isn't a point.

Any way it's not like us and the Brits are the only english speakers around. There are also the Americans, Australians, Canadians, South Africans and hell even Falkland Islanders.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Irish is already a second class language because only a tiny minority actually speak it. People should start dealing with this reality.

Irish is, as I have said, a minority language, But you need to deal with the reality that minority languages are to be promoted not shunned as second class languages.

I'm not suggesting we hide it. I'm saying that it's inappropriate for a parliamentarian to intentionally make a speech in the Dail in a language that the majority of the people he or she represents don't understand. It inhibits the ability of citizens to hold parliamentarians accountable.

I have already stated that this can easily be gotten around, The vast majority of Irish citizens can read English can they not, now given that the vast majority of political speeches will have a written text prepared beforhand, then providing subtitles in English can easily be done, There is no issue with Accountably.

Ignoring the difficulties in translation and such, this would still be a major inconvenience. And given that the inconvenience is being proposed only to feed the hobby horse of one special interest group in society, I think it an inconvenience without justification.

What dificulties in translation? These are overcome on a daily basis in other parliaments across Europe, In many countries Bi-lingualism is a simple fact of life, it dosent inhibit accountibly nor is it an inconvience, it is done in many places and could be easily done here. Given that the state has the promotion of Irish as an aim, it is justified.

P. Breathnach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

People who are concerned about us marking ourselves out from the Brits need to start reading the International media.

We are the fcuking laughing stock of Europe.

Don't overstate things. Yes, our image has suffered greatly in the bast couple of years, but outside political and financial circles, most people are not that interested in our travails. And we need to remember that a great deal of life happens outside those rarified circles.

In any event, I have no wish to hide. If I visit France (as I often do) and somebody I meet there wants me to discuss what went wrong in Ireland, I am quite willing to converse about it.

Requiring politicians to speak in Irish is another branch of parish pump politics.

I don't support a requirement that our politicians speak Irish. My position is that I see it as a bonus if they can.

How about we concern ourselves with POLICY??? Instead of IMAGE???:rolleyes:

Yet you opened your argument by expressing a concern about how we are perceived: image.

Yes, of course it is vitally important that we get some good policy and practice in place. But that does not exclude image, because having a good image is part of the package.

P. Breathnach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I quite like being Irish as well but I would never go out of my way to let a passing foreigner know I was Irish when in another country. Unless said passing foreigner is racist there really isn't a point.

Any travel I do, now that I am retired, is purely recreational. It adds to my enjoyment if I am taken for what I am rather than as something else. That's point enough for me.

Any way it's not like us and the Brits are the only english speakers around. There are also the Americans, Australians, Canadians, South Africans and hell even Falkland Islanders.

My experience has been that I am regularly taken as being English (which for most people in continental Europe seems synonymous with British). It seems to me that relatively few people confuse us with English-speakers from more distant places.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My experience has been that I am regularly taken as being English (which for most people in continental Europe seems synonymous with British). It seems to me that relatively few people confuse us with English-speakers from more distant places.

That was my experience too, I remember a piticularly annoying waiter in Paris asked me what part of England I was from, When I said I was Irish he just said, Its the same thing isent it.
Ah if only I had as much Irish then as I do now.:cool:

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't overstate things.

If you have any family living abroad, I suggest you ask them for their opinions.
If it's anything like the stories I've heard, you'll see that I'm not overstating anything.
Our reputation is in tatters.

Yes, our image has suffered greatly in the bast couple of years, but outside political and financial circles, most people are not that interested in our travails.

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you believe this, this is simply not true.
Ordinary people in all walks of life have plenty to say about Ireland and many of them are very angry with us, others just think we are morons.

In any event, I have no wish to hide. If I visit France (as I often do) and somebody I meet there wants me to discuss what went wrong in Ireland, I am quite willing to converse about it.

That's the problem - people aren't asking questions, they've made their minds up about us.
I'm talking about ordinary German/British people on the street, Czech Doctors, not high level politicians.

I don't support a requirement that our politicians speak Irish. My position is that I see it as a bonus if they can.

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't see it as a plus if a politician can speak Irish, although I would see it as a plus if they could speak Chinese

Yet you opened your argument by expressing a concern about how we are perceived: image.

Precisely.
A disturbingly large amount of people note and praise the fact that Cowen can ramble a few words as gaeilge, yet the vast majority of people take little notice of the fact that Bruton is a qualified economist or Ruairi Quinn has a great track record etc.

If you put two doctors in front of joe soap, tell him one is a master in his field whereas the other can speak a few words of Irish, people will choose the doctor that is a master in his field.
When it comes to politicians, they'll choose the equivalent doctor who speak a few words of Irish.

Yes, of course it is vitally important that we get some good policy and practice in place. But that does not exclude image, because having a good image is part of the package.

Yes, but which image?

A small minority of people in Ireland give a damn about the perception that a politician can utter a few words of Irish. It's irrelevant.

The overwhelming majority of people inside and outside Ireland care about the image of the politician as competent and non-corrupt first and foremost.

squonk

OP here! I wanted to amend my original post but got dragged away on something else. What i wanted to add was that I have no issue with foreign nationals getting into politics who cannot speak Irish, even as a party leader. They wouldn't have gotten irish lessons in school and grown up with the language. I'd appreciate them trying however.

We have to assume that if a politician is voted into office that his constituents reckoned he was the best man for the job. Lets assume that this is the case, as opposed to what actually happens! If that politician is Irish, has grown up in ireland and has done exams in the language, and is a party leader, then I don't think it's asking very much that they be able to converse in irish, especially as they are being paid quite well for what they do and their workplace will readily provide lessons, so they don't need to pop out after work to make classes like the rest of us.

TG4 has done great work to make Irish available in a format where it is acceptable by most people around the country. I'm not a gaelgoir but I can certainly say that my irish has improved thanks to TG4. I do intend to take up irish lessons and try to become conversant in the language. I think it's important to keep the language alive and I think it's important that politicians can be seen to converse in the language. It should be something that we're not necessarily proud of, but something we use and if the people running the country start to get to the point where they can't speak the language over time then funding drops and it slips further down the priority list. That would be sad to see happen.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you have any family living abroad, I suggest you ask them for their opinions.
If it's anything like the stories I've heard, you'll see that I'm not overstating anything.
Our reputation is in tatters.

I'm sorry but you are deluded if you believe this, this is simply not true.
Ordinary people in all walks of life have plenty to say about Ireland and many of them are very angry with us, others just think we are morons.

Our governments reputation may be in tatters but we as a people are not.
I have not spoken to many non nationals on the issue, but I find it hard to believe that your average joe soap in France has such an opinion of the Irish people, The Irish government maybe, but then again, Irish people also hold the government in the same regard.

Precisely.
A disturbingly large amount of people note and praise the fact that Cowen can ramble a few words as gaeilge, yet the vast majority of people take little notice of the fact that Bruton is a qualified economist or Ruairi Quinn has a great track record etc.

Cowen can speak Irish quite fluently, and should get credit for his ability to speak Irish, Dose that mean I would vote for him because he can speak Irish? No, of course not, (The oppisition can speak Irish too;))
I think you are wildly over stating things, The view you are putting forward is almost cartoonish in its Nature.

A small minority of people in Ireland give a damn about the perception that a politician can utter a few words of Irish. It's irrelevant.

The overwhelming majority of people inside and outside Ireland care about the image of the politician as competent and non-corrupt first and foremost.

People wanting competent and non-corupt politicions is a given, I dont see why you are even bringing it up in this debate.

Unless you have the view that the two things as somehow in compition with each other?

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

People wanting competent and non-corupt politicions is a given, I dont see why you are even bringing it up in this debate.

Unless you have the view that the two things as somehow in compition with each other?

My view is that, we've as good as been through a war in Ireland for the last 3 years, and the 2 nasty ones are coming up.
After everything this country has been through in the last 3 years, it's borderline infantile to suggest that their ability to speak Irish even matters in the slightest, any more than their ability to cook boiled eggs.

What is it going to take to get people to accept only a tiny minority actually speak or care about the Irish language?
It's a childish distraction from the REAL issues.

People are concerned about having health insurance, about having a job, about a roof over their heads.
The vast majority of people on this island are quite content speaking English even to not bother learning Irish.