Party Leaders As Gaeilge

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

CelticRambler

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Actually, no they don't. They use Catalan, Basque and Galician amongst themselves and only speak "Spanish" as a common tongue, or when they have to mix with the Castillians.

sceptre

You know guys, if this is going to continue as a repeat of the other thread(s) on the Irish language, we might as well lock this one right now. The original starting point for this thread offered something different to discuss - whether or not it's important for leaders of Irish political parties to be able and willing to speak Irish. As stated in the OP, it was specifically started to discuss that point. While it can be reasonably expanded to include ministers or ordinary members of the Oireachtas, recently the thread has moved to virtually the same discussion as in the other active thread.

Please move the discussion dramatically back towards the OP or this additional thread is pointless.

/mod

CelticRambler

Biggins wrote: »

Point of order.

What quick and easy option!

I've been politically active for some time now (many years) and I have yet to find this quick and easy option.
That pretence of one supposedly existing is naive to say the least!

The easy option, allowing that some politicians do make a genuine effort to research on their chosen ministry or other standpoint, is to read as much as possible. In the case of Irish politicians (and others), it's going to be far easier to draw information and inspiration from texts written in English than any other language, which will inevitably have an English or American (or maybe Australian) bias.

The easy option is to stop there and base ideas on that relatively restricted range of opinions, without delving deep into the socio-economic practises of other cultures - which may provide a third or even a fourth way of approaching the governmental challenges of the day.

I'm not saying your average policitian is going to find a cure for Ireland's ills in the pages of Peig (is she still moaning in the classrooms of Ireland?). It's simply a sign that the speaker has learnt to separate the use of language from the content of what's being said and if they're prepared to do that in one language, they'll do it in others - or at least be more tolerant of the views expressed in other languages.

deise go deo

As for the central issue of this thread, Party leaders generally can and do use Irish, I think they shoule use more so however, how can a party support a bi-lingual future for Ireland and not practice it themselves?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think you misunderstand, 4% at most actually use the language every day, The % who can understand Irish is Greater than that. As I said before there is nothing undemocratic about it at all, Many countries do it quite successfully. If it is undemocratic at 4%(Which is far too low in reality) then when dose it stop being undemocratic? 10% 20% 50%? Where is the line?

Biggins

CelticRambler wrote: »

The easy option, allowing that some politicians do make a genuine effort to research on their chosen ministry or other standpoint, is to read as much as possible. In the case of Irish politicians (and others), it's going to be far easier to draw information and inspiration from texts written in English than any other language, which will inevitably have an English or American (or maybe Australian) bias.

The easy option is to stop there and base ideas on that relatively restricted range of opinions, without delving deep into the socio-economic practises of other cultures - which may provide a third or even a fourth way of approaching the governmental challenges of the day.

Thats a thought alright but seeing as the Irish language is most certainly not in wide-scale use across Europe (and the world) where our economic business, banking and influence/areas of possible learning extends, the ability for a politician to be able to speak Irish become a redundant skill near to the point of also knowing how to speak latin.

Again, there is no easy option for a politician. I would rather a politician in Ireland know a foreign language - be it German, French or even Chinese than know Irish.
At least that would be of more use. Saying a politician doesn't speak Irish does NOT mean they are taking an easier option. The ability to not speak Irish bears no relationship in my mind to some theoretical "easy option" - frankly as one who has been politically active for many, many years, I find that a very poor estimation and far, far off the mark.

CelticRambler wrote: »

...I'm not saying your average policitian is going to find a cure for Ireland's ills in the pages of Peig (is she still moaning in the classrooms of Ireland?). It's simply a sign that the speaker has learnt to separate the use of language from the content of what's being said and if they're prepared to do that in one language, they'll do it in others - or at least be more tolerant of the views expressed in other languages.

...But why Irish first then as an option?
Seriously!
Would their time not be actually spent then on learning a greatly more used language that is more widely used across the world and would aid greater communication and salesmanship in service of ones country?
...And if a politician has the ability to speak another language - not Irish - then have they not too taken a harder option and not this "easy option" I've yet to find, and have equally in fact with those that can speak Irish, previously committed to the work and time to do the hard graft in order to communicate!

P. Breathnach

Biggins wrote: »

...
...But why Irish first then as an option?
Seriously!
Would their time not be actually spent then on learning a greatly more used language that is more widely used across the world and would aid greater communication and salesmanship in service of ones country?
...

The discussion here (at least since sceptre provided mod guidance) is about politicians using Irish. Not about learning it. Let's be realistic: nobody expects a politician to take up the study of Irish when he or she is already established on a senior political position.

I note that Micheál Martin has proposed that there be three party leaders' debates, and that one of them be conducted in Irish.

deise go deo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I note that Micheál Martin has proposed that there be three party leaders' debates, and that one of them be conducted in Irish.

Now theres an Idea, That would be great, They all can speak Irish so no problem there, I wounder if Gerry Adams would be included?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The discussion here (at least since sceptre provided mod guidance) is about politicians using Irish. Not about learning it. Let's be realistic: nobody expects a politician to take up the study of Irish when he or she is already established on a senior political position.

I agree with you if your also saying that it shouldn't be a prerequisite to becoming an Irish TD.
I certainly don't expect a TD to know Irish. I just expect themselves to be able to do the job they are elected to do, in the best know methods of communication that maybe applied a lot more across our country and beyond outside our borders.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I note that Micheál Martin has proposed that there be three party leaders' debates, and that one of them be conducted in Irish.

Thats fair play to him for suggesting that. I, myself would have difficulty in following such a debate as with hand on heart, I can say my Irish is not the best.
Good luck to them with that.

Only speaking again for myself, as I know others are like me - having little or no great learning in the Irish language department - I would choose to hold ALL debates in the most common language of the land that would also facilitate greater communication and by effect, greater clarity and openness to all equally.
...But he must see an advantage too also as an option for himself by taking an Irish language debate to the people - and if he and the rest involved can do that with skill, all credit to them in fairness.
...However I still would not without hesitation hold it against a TD if he cannot speak Irish - in fact if I was to do such a thing (open question to the forum, not directed to your good self in particular), would that selective route not be seen as a form of discrimination towards one bunch of Irish speaking TD's than away from those just speaking the more widely used languages?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

deise go deo wrote: »

Now there's an idea, That would be great, They all can speak Irish so no problem there, I wonder if Gerry Adams would be included?

I've a sneaking suspicion that Gerry is being sidelined out of debates for another reason - but that's a possible topic for another thread.

Eliot Rosewater

deise go deo wrote: »

Now theres an Idea, That would be great, They all can speak Irish so no problem there, I wounder if Gerry Adams would be included?

At a time when people feel that the political classes are living in a world of their own, conducting a full debate in a language that the vast majority of citizens can't understand doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

At a time when people feel that the political classes are living in a world of their own, conducting a full debate in a language that the vast majority of citizens can't understand doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea.

It will certainly isolate me - thats being honest and I suspect a great deal of people will turn off too as they will see attempting to follow such a debate, as a complete waste of their time - and possibly TV air time too!

deise go deo

Biggins wrote: »

It will certainly isolate me - thats being honest and I suspect a great deal of people will turn off too as they will see attempting to follow such a debate, as a complete waste of their time - and possibly TV air time too!

There is absolutely no reason at all not to hold a debate in Irish, Its not 'undemocratic' as there would be two other leadership debates in English. They can all follow and contribute to the debate.

Why is it that the majority of time being given to English isent enough? Why dose it have to be All the time? Why can there be no space made available for Irish?

deise go deo

Biggins wrote: »

I've a sneaking suspicion that Gerry is being sidelined out of debates for another reason - but that's a possible topic for another thread.

Well actually including him in the Irish debate would be a way of getting one over on him as his Irish isent as good as the rest, Thats why I was asking, It could be embarrassing for SF not to take part due to lack of ability in Irish considering they are the most vocal about the language.

Biggins

deise go deo wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason at all not to hold a debate in Irish, Its not 'undemocratic' as there would be two other leadership debates in English. They can all follow and contribute to the debate.

Why is it that the majority of time being given to English isn't enough? Why dose it have to be All the time? Why can there be no space made available for Irish?

Well I will say it again, fair play to all those who participate in such a debate.
They are obviously aiming such a debate at a certain section of the Irish population.
Sadly and obviously that section is in a good minority - that can be in no doubt. Only those in minority that are able to follow such a debate will be able to "follow and contribute" and thats just the way things are and will be.

I wouldn't in any way stop such a debate or call for the halt of such a debate.
I only make the point such an Irish debate should be seen in context to those (a bigger percentage) that are going to lose out because of obvious lack of communication to them.

southsiderosie

deise go deo wrote: »

I think you misunderstand, 4% at most actually use the language every day, The % who can understand Irish is Greater than that. As I said before there is nothing undemocratic about it at all, Many countries do it quite successfully. If it is undemocratic at 4%(Which is far too low in reality) then when dose it stop being undemocratic? 10% 20% 50%? Where is the line?

What countries do this successfully?

Regional languages are quite prevalent in Spain, but Spanish is the only language that is allowed on the floor of the national legislature. The regional parties tried to table a motion to allow speeches and statements in regional languages and it was blocked by both the conservatives and the socialist party - they don't agree on much, but they do agree that the language of national political debate should be the language used and understood by a majority of Spaniards - even if it is a second language for some.

I would also add that even in the Basque Country most of the business of the regional government is conducted in Spanish, since a majority of the population is NOT fluent in Basque (in contrast to what an earlier poster said). In addition, the traditional language of politics, diplomacy and law in the region was always Spanish. Catalonia is the only part of Spain where the regional language is dominant in business, politics, and everyday life.

Communication is critical in politics, and at a national level, TDs should debate, give speeches, and issue statements in the primary language of the general population. However, if they attend events in predominately Irish-speaking regions, then of course it would make sense to use Irish.

Eliot Rosewater

deise go deo wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

deise go deo, are you even listening to anything being said?

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

At a time when people feel that the political classes are living in a world of their own, conducting a full debate in a language that the vast majority of citizens can't understand doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea.

Biggins

I know its slightly off topic but look at it this way in regards to the debates alone...

If a certain small percentage is going to gain and understand a debate in pure Irish, that small percentage is seriously shoving immediately in isolationism aside what I suspect is a vast majority of the people in Ireland.

Thats a great deal of people by the way that FF will not be able to get across their own future hopes and plans when they speak in a much minority used language.

It will be a third of the debates taking place that will be aimed what what I suspect will be even a smaller proportion of those that will actually be able to follow it in clarity and speed.

deise go deo

southsiderosie wrote: »

What countries do this successfully?

Well, this country for one, Irish is allowed in the Dáil and dosent cause any problems when it is used.

In addition to Ireland, Wales, Stormount, the Scottish assembly, Switzerland, Belgium(I presume) and of course the EU parliament all allow more than one language to be used at any time.

Regional languages are quite prevalent in Spain, but Spanish is the only language that is allowed on the floor of the national legislature. The regional parties tried to table a motion to allow speeches and statements in regional languages and it was blocked by both the conservatives and the socialist party - they don't agree on much, but they do agree that the language of national political debate should be the language used and understood by a majority of Spaniards - even if it is a second language for some.

There is this group called ETA who havent endeared the Basque population, or its language to the Spanish government, In that light its not surprising that there may be some hesitation in doing the Basque languages any favors in the Spanish parliament.

I would also add that even in the Basque Country most of the business of the regional government is conducted in Spanish, since a majority of the population is NOT fluent in Basque (in contrast to what an earlier poster said). In addition, the traditional language of politics, diplomacy and law in the region was always Spanish. Catalonia is the only part of Spain where the regional language is dominant in business, politics, and everyday life.

The word in bold is the important one in this debate.

deise go deo

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

deise go deo, are you even listening to anything being said?

I have indeed read those posts, I just don't think they amount to a valid reason to exclude the Irish language from the political life of this country.

yoshytoshy

Culture and politics are two seperate things ,speaking irish won't change that

Biggins

deise go deo wrote: »

I have indeed read those posts, I just don't think they amount to a valid reason to exclude the Irish language from the political life of this country.

I agree with you there, the Irish language should not be excluded from political life.
However in equal fairness, it should be more accurately be represented in ratio to those that can actually speak it and use it daily.
For immediate up to date example: having one complete third of a possible round of debates - when (I don't know the actual figures) a much smaller number of people will be able to follow what is going on and said - is equally unfair I feel to the much, much greater population.

So maybe 5%* of a total population get to have one third of national debates?
Does that seem fair?

* Figure used is only an example to illustrate point being tried to be made.

deise go deo

Biggins wrote: »

I agree with you there, the Irish language should not be excluded from political life.
However in equal fairness, it should be more accurately be represented in ratio to those that can actually speak it and use it daily.
For immediate up to date example: having one complete third of a possible round of debates - when (I don't know the actual figures) a much smaller number of people will be able to follow what is going on and said - is equally unfair I feel to the much, much greater population.

So maybe 5%* of a total population get to have one third of national debates?
Does that seem fair?

* Figure used is only an example to illustrate point being tried to be made.

Well 41% of the population reported a reasonable ability to use/understand Irish in the last census, So 33% of the debates seams fair(Given the probability of the level of ability being over reported in the census)

What we have is an option(Going on the three debates proposal) Of having 2 English and one Irish debate or having three English debates. So the question is why should Irish be excluded? Is there a need to have a third Debate in English at the expense of Irish?

Which is the more unfair? To only hold two instead of three debates in the case of English or to hold nothing in the case of Irish?

Given that there is no practical constraint(all the leaders can take part in such a debate) what is the justification for not holding a debate in Irish, The service will be provided in English, No one will have any reason to miss out on what the leaders have to say as they will say it in English, on two occasions, so why is holding a debate in Irish such a problem for people?(Not aimed at you specifically Biggins)

Oasis_Dublin

I think it's fantastic that any politician in Ireland can respond to a question as gaeilge. It's part of what we are and I think it is a good thing.

P. Breathnach

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Culture and politics are two seperate things ,speaking irish won't change that

Culture and politics are far from separate.