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Winter 2010-2011 outlook

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  • Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭davidsr20


    anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,668 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    davidsr20 wrote: »
    according to that clip we wont have a white christmas,did M.T not say from the 21st-23rd were getting more snow or am i wrong as he has been spot on so far???


    He mentioned a possible winter storm. Which if it did happen, could well be a wintry mix of rain, sleet and wet snow, rather than an all snow event for parts of Ireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,373 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I am still calling for a winter storm setup to develop with the full moon event around 20-21 December, and the models continue to hint at a reload of very cold air from the north or northeast before that time period so it seems the chances are reasonably good for a white Christmas. All of this is of course less reliable than 3-5 day outlook forecasting, but looking back to post 767 in this thread (15 Nov) not that unreliable. :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭davidsr20


    I am still calling for a winter storm setup to develop with the full moon event around 20-21 December, and the models continue to hint at a reload of very cold air from the north or northeast before that time period so it seems the chances are reasonably good for a white Christmas. All of this is of course less reliable than 3-5 day outlook forecasting, but looking back to post 767 in this thread (15 Nov) not that unreliable. :cool:

    Thanks for reply m.t,white christmas would be nice for once :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Hmmmmm.....this year I am wondering what odds the bookies will give on it NOT being a white christmas!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Hmmmmm.....this year I am wondering what odds the bookies will give on it NOT being a white christmas!!

    Odds on


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭Elmo5


    I am still calling for a winter storm setup to develop with the full moon event around 20-21 December, and the models continue to hint at a reload of very cold air from the north or northeast before that time period so it seems the chances are reasonably good for a white Christmas. All of this is of course less reliable than 3-5 day outlook forecasting, but looking back to post 767 in this thread (15 Nov) not that unreliable. :cool:

    Indeed MT, I dug out your forecast last night and spot on :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭glossy


    this MT :D
    Time to confirm what I've been hinting at here and in the daily forecast thread.

    My long-range seasonal outlook calls for colder than normal temperatures for most of the winter months, and higher than normal snowall amounts.

    Expect periods of very cold weather to develop late November and through much of December as blocking high pressure becomes well established over the Baltic regions. While the Atlantic will occasionally push back and bring milder, wet conditions, the frequency of east winds and cold combined with a storm track close to the south coast of Ireland and into the southern half of the U.K. should make for frequent snowfalls in many parts of Ireland and the U.K. Predicting temperatures to average 1.5 to 2.0 C below normal in December and some stretches possibly sub-freezing, with snowfall likely before Christmas making for a white Christmas for many.

    The January outlook calls for this cold to deepen for part of the month before a brief reversal indicated by some of the research index values. Therefore the month may feature some major winter storms mid-month as this pattern reversal begins. Despite the milder end, the month is likely to continue to average below normal by about the same amount as December, 1-2 C and possibly more.

    February was less conclusive from the research index values but unless the January reversal is highly energetic, could see the blocking redeveloping and leading to a colder than normal February as well.

    Given the strength of cold in the outlook and the dependence of mean winter temperatures on snow cover near the lower end of the spectrum, one cannot rule out a sort of near-extreme or even extreme outcome, since mean monthly temperatures below 2.0 tend to promote continuous snow cover and therefore a fairly easy slide down to sub-freezing values from the same air masses as are present for 2-3 C.

    In other words, I'm predicting a cold winter with lots of snow, that could become an epic winter. Stay tuned.

    One other detail to note, the storm frequency from my research should be on a fairly well-modulated 3.5-day cycle with stronger events every seven days or so (this is not exact so it won't work out to the same day every week). The stronger events are likely to produce their share of slow-moving but deep "Channel" or French lows promoting a strong east wind and outbreaks of snow. One of the better scenarios I foresee for snowfall comes with the December full moon and "northern max" event of 21 December. This is bound to produce an intense storm over western Europe and I am giving something like 2-1 odds for this to be a cold weather storm event with at least some snow or sleet in the mix for Ireland, whereas if the pattern happens to be stuck on mild then, look for a very mild and windy sort of event followed by much colder weather.

    In general, through the mid-winter period, the stormy episodes will fall at full and new moons, and approximately mid-way between them with a second set of high-energy peaks. This pattern will continue into late winter but with the secondary energy peaks decoupling from the primary (full/new) this gives a more frequent distribution of storms that, if coupled with a cold pattern in February, could lead to a steady parade of disturbances around the southern flanks of blocking high pressure to the north and northeast.

    Anyone interested in a more detailed forecast could find one later today on Net-weather posted by my research associate and friend, Blast from the Past as he is known to the weather forum world. That will be UK-centric but after all, the winter patterns are bound to be quite similar, and the general theme appears to be cold winning out over mild again this winter.

    Looks like this pattern could be setting up gradually later this month, and I would not be surprised if there is some snow even in late November.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I would not be surprised if there is some snow even in late November.
    First snow touched down on 27th November. That's pretty bang on right there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    I know its way into FI and i wont even bother posting the charts, but the GFS has the cold breaking down soon after it starts around the 20th or 21st . . .and they have been remarkably accurate up until now.

    :D You're joking right?

    They touch every scenario in FI, 28 outputs per week :)

    Even the 0z,6z,12z and 18z in the same day are often chalk and cheese.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭thetonynator


    :D You're joking right?

    They touch every scenario in FI, 28 outputs per week :)

    Even the 0z,6z,12z and 18z in the same day are often chalk and cheese.


    The GFS was giving this cold spell well in advance, it caried every day but it kept coming back to a similar scenario. Look at the winter FI thread, -8 850 temps were predicted well in advance. I'm not saying they were infallible or anything like it, but compared to the usual it was much more accurate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,668 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    i just wonder if the gfs was around in 1947 and 1962/63 would it have been showing breakdowns scenarios well out in fi:P


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,668 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    seems fairly bullish to me. given they predicted this cold period well before the other models, they must have access to extra data that makes them fairly confident- or perhaps they just consulted Ireland's favourite Canadian:pac:

    UK Outlook for Monday 13 Dec 2010 to Wednesday 22 Dec 2010:

    A mainly dry start to next week is expected, but with the risk of occasional rain, sleet and perhaps hill snow in the east. Into the latter half the first week and into the second week, there is an increasing chance of snow showers in northern and eastern parts of the UK, with some significant accumulations likely. Best of any dry and sunny weather likely towards southern and western parts of the UK, although even here some snow is possible. Winds are likely to be light at first, but will become strong towards the end of the first week, with perhaps a risk of gales in eastern parts. Temperatures will be cold or very cold throughout, with widespread, locally severe, overnight frosts and some freezing fog patches developing in places.

    Thursday 23 Dec 2010 to Thursday 6 Jan 2011:

    For the remainder of December and into the start of the New Year, temperatures look set to remain very cold, well below average for much of the UK, with often widespread frost and the risk of ice. Precipitation amounts are expected to be generally around average for many, with further snowfall a distinct possibility in places. However, western parts of the UK may see more in the way of drier weather. Amounts of sunshine should be around or slightly above average for many.

    Updated: 1142 on Wed 8 Dec 2010


  • Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭piskins72


    seems fairly bullish to me. given they predicted this cold period well before the other models, they must have access to extra data that makes them fairly confident- or perhaps they just consulted Ireland's favourite Canadian:pac:

    UK Outlook for Monday 13 Dec 2010 to Wednesday 22 Dec 2010:

    A mainly dry start to next week is expected, but with the risk of occasional rain, sleet and perhaps hill snow in the east. Into the latter half the first week and into the second week, there is an increasing chance of snow showers in northern and eastern parts of the UK, with some significant accumulations likely. Best of any dry and sunny weather likely towards southern and western parts of the UK, although even here some snow is possible. Winds are likely to be light at first, but will become strong towards the end of the first week, with perhaps a risk of gales in eastern parts. Temperatures will be cold or very cold throughout, with widespread, locally severe, overnight frosts and some freezing fog patches developing in places.

    Thursday 23 Dec 2010 to Thursday 6 Jan 2011:

    For the remainder of December and into the start of the New Year, temperatures look set to remain very cold, well below average for much of the UK, with often widespread frost and the risk of ice. Precipitation amounts are expected to be generally around average for many, with further snowfall a distinct possibility in places. However, western parts of the UK may see more in the way of drier weather. Amounts of sunshine should be around or slightly above average for many.

    Updated: 1142 on Wed 8 Dec 2010

    something I have always wondered, how come Met Eireann never have long range outlooks like the Met Office in the UK do?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,668 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    piskins72 wrote: »
    something I have always wondered, how come Met Eireann never have long range outlooks like the Met Office in the UK do?

    a lack of resources perhaps. also even doing monthly outlooks is putting your head on the block because drastic changes can take place. so even though their current outlook is very positive for the rest of month, if you're a cold and snow fan, unfortunately things may not quite work out like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    So hows next week looing now folks?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Pangea wrote: »
    So hows next week looing now folks?

    It gets progressively colder on Monday and Tuesday, Wednesday starts off similar to the previous two days, might get slightly milder (still cold) before proper cold sets itself up again which then continues.
    The snow returns later in the week with showers for the north and east.

    My reading of the GFS chart.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Min wrote: »
    It gets progressively colder on Monday and Tuesday, Wednesday starts off similar to the previous two days, might get slightly milder (still cold) before proper cold sets itself up again which then continues.
    The snow returns later in the week with showers for the north and east.

    My reading of the GFS chart.
    Forecasts are always a blend though and don't use gfs in NW Europe a whole lot.
    More attention is paid to the UKMO and ecm.
    Regardless,the trend is towards what you say :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    THE RECENT COLD SNAP AND WHAT LIES AHEAD?

    WHAT IS THE ARCTIC OSCILLATION?

    “The Arctic Oscillation is a climate pattern that influences winter weather in the Northern Hemisphere. It is defined by the pressure difference between air at mid-latitudes (around 45 degrees North, about the latitude of Montreal, Canada or Bordeaux, France) and air over the Arctic. A low-pressure air mass usually dominates the Arctic, while higher pressure air sits over the mid-latitudes. This pressure difference generates winds that confine extremely cold air to the Arctic. Sometimes, the pressure systems weaken, decreasing the pressure difference between the Arctic and mid-latitudes and allowing chilly Arctic air to slide south while warmer air creeps north. A weaker-than-normal Arctic Oscillation is said to be negative. When the pressure systems are strong, the Arctic Oscillation is positive.” Source: NASA Earth Observatory

    I've put together some plots from 25th Nov to Dec 8th 2010 showing how this can influence our weather.

    Looking at the 500mb anomaly plot for the last couple of weeks we can see a prime example of a strong CLASSIC Greenland blocking high that opened the siberian door.
    139052.JPG


    In the below chart i look at the surface air temperature anomaly during the last couple of weeks.We clearly see the core of the cold originating from Siberia and spreading across europe carried in those easterly winds, to give us a most memorable late November/early December 2010.

    139053.JPG




    We see that during this period as a whole the AO(Arctic Oscillation)Index took a nose dive.(12/10/2010) means up to date as of DEC 10th 2010.

    RClimate_AO_recent.png


    So now we look to what might be staring us in the face?

    Well the same AO according to model influence is forecast to drop like a stone again.
    ao.fcst.gif
    And according to models at this present time all roads point to another period of exceptionally cold weather approaching.

    It should be mentioned that this does not always mean a cold snap is approaching Ireland because of height rises positioning however it is a very good indicator that bitterly cold Polar air is lurking nearby.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    WOW just plotted 500mb chart for Dec 1981

    Two words,simply Divine
    139054.JPG


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  • Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭isle of man


    redsunset wrote: »
    WOW just plotted 500mb chart for Dec 1981

    Two words,simply Divine
    compday.86.40.76.246.343.16.26.40.gif

    could do with that again!!!!

    o hold on, is it just me or does that look like this.
    have i just had a blond moment


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    This is a winter forecast view from an Italian website,so excuse the translated mess.
    WINTER 2010/2011
    The main indexes in modular configurations of the season just begun will be: nina strong, the QBO went from negative to positive during the fall, the 2nd lowest minimum Arctic summer ever (which tends to force an AO-), the Atlantic tripole still very active, high snowcover on the European sector, and last but not least the low solar activity that we drag behind for the past four winters.

    Curiously, from 2006/07, the beginning of the period of profound quiet, winters have a way to cool off and configurations have become gradually more and more surprising.

    But back to this winter, one of the main differences that characterize this season, unlike the past, will be the largest wave of the jet and then last year will see a different block Atlantic often large and powerful as it is rarely seen in recent times. The first cast will tend to have quite a way west, but later we may see a Orientalisation the same which will alternate source of both the Arctic Seas to the Arctic continental. The European snowcover will help to maintain and transform them into magnets for more waves with about the same as the previous target. For clarity, I would say go and see the possible development month by month ...

    December 2010:
    In the coming days on the polar vortex will undergo a re-consolidation (AO always negative) but that will be immediately blocked by a comeback in contemporary Atlantic to Aleutians. Meanwhile a group Arctic maritime isolate continental character taking on Eastern Europe due to the presence of snow on the ground to trigger the phenomenon of inversion.

    This core is pushed in the form of cold retrograde drop into northern Italy or, at most, slightly north of the Alps. The trend is similar to that of 13 December 2001 or February 6, 1991 but with a little heat 'higher. Immediately after the two high pressure en route to the Arctic will create a bridge linking the Atlantic to the Pacific, bringing perhaps the AO scale values of the scale ... (below -6). The Atlantic side of the block could be truly magnificent and will, perhaps helped by the MJO in step 5, to maintain a negative NAO is not too strong. Hence the split of the lobe derived from the Siberian VP will head to Europe in moving away via the cold air to the west. Central Europe will be the most affected area. We shall probably be a bit 'too far south, but the event is likely to come in, I say slowly, in history. And this is just the beginning of winter.

    The third decade could see, after the Westernization of the cold and a slight push on with the VP shooting high zonal and HP will move to Scandinavia (MJO phase 6 / 7?) With new interesting scenarios shortly after Christmas. The map below I have tried to draw the layout of the Geopotential although without a real scale, only to illustrate the configuration "media" that might be of interest to us.
    dic2010.png
    January 2011:
    The block station in northern Europe would move under a new push antizonale moderate (AO-perhaps with contributions from stratospheric), positioned in the area west of Iceland. Meanwhile nina strong start to press with an attempt to step in AO +, which most likely will fail. This will, after a raid on Europe cold, a slight recovery of the VP in the Canadian zone, enough HP to push the north east. Here's the frost on Europe and the HP retrogredirà tend to bulging at the center of the continent. So we will have a second part of the month and anticyclonic calm, with instability confined to regions exposed to the currents of Balkan origin. The snowcover at that point would be the whole of Europe and high temperatures would lead to very low values by inversion.
    gen2011.png
    February 2011:
    Now the winter has already reached levels really good and would begin to subside. In fact, under the pressure of the strong nina HP dominate our area with more and more robust recovery of the VP Canadian, but ... this tremendous difference between the temperatures of the Atlantic and Euro-Siberian frost would be that the flow of heat driven by the Canadian have a long path through north around the UK. It would start another period AO/NAO-.
    feb20111.png
    Concluded, however, I would say one thing: This prediction is the most "optimistic" for freddofili, but by no means the least likely, so I decided to throw myself because now all the indications are that we are about to suffer a winter that could stay together for large (56/85/91) or very large (29/63).

    The most important feature would be to be able to satisfy almost all the peninsula. Underlying all of this could play a crucial role at low solar activity that is now revolutionizing the whole normal connective paintings that had until a few years ago. Now the AO fails to break peace with exceptional values, while often the -4 was almost utopian even after MMW. To conclude the discussion on winter I expect a large number of episodes, but not a persistent cold, namely: the negative anomalies are alternated with short transition phases in positivity.

    Wanting to open a parenthesis in the long term can not be excluded, NAO and AO watching that 2008 was the beginning of a new climate cycle as has happened in the 80's, only this time you point and will point down.
    Given the enormous potential of the winter we will update soon with another article, a split tropospheric accomplished (if done icon_lol.gif), Analyzing the possible influences that will start in 2011.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    great stuff


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,373 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Looking at the 18z GFS run, the signal continues to intensify for a very strong arctic outbreak starting around Thursday on this run ... basically what happens is that the high which gave the thaw and is now slowly chilling overhead is stretched out and destroyed by sudden events to the north where the Greenland high captures the height anomaly from the eastern Atlantic, and a huge polar hurricane (can't describe it as anything less) forms near Svalbard and drops rapidly south. This will have to be watched because as impressive as the current maps appear, if this feature were to hold together somewhat longer it would engulf Britain and Ireland in a very strong northerly of sub-freezing temperatures which is almost what the maps show now ... the only difference being that the northerly is rather strong instead of very strong.

    I can't stress strongly enough that this will be a major winter weather onslaught and not just a drop in temperatures with a few local flurries.

    This is like turning the eastern Atlantic into the Great Lakes, almost, when you have this much cold air rushing south this fast, it overcomes the normal tendencies of the Atlantic to modify air masses and turn streamers to mush. This setup could give blizzard like conditions even with winds somewhat west of due north, in many parts of Ireland. And we aren't that confident that the setup is perfectly modelled yet, what's probably equally likely at this point is that the polar low will drop into the North Sea and pull Siberian air across into the N-NE flow on following days. There is also a lot of super-cold air waiting to head west from central to northwest Russia and around Novaya Zemlya.

    When this polar hurricane develops, winds are going to be 50-70 knots around Jan Mayen with temperatures of -12 C ... the ice margin will probably shift south in this period to reach limits not seen in recent years, and the Baltic Sea is rapidly freezing and spilling out 0-2 C water into the North Sea. All of these factors are building blocks towards what may become an epochal cold spell for Ireland and Britain in the next 20-30 day interval. :eek::pac:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 7,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭pistolpetes11


    Looking at the 18z GFS run, the signal continues to intensify for a very strong arctic outbreak starting around Thursday on this run ... basically what happens is that the high which gave the thaw and is now slowly chilling overhead is stretched out and destroyed by sudden events to the north where the Greenland high captures the height anomaly from the eastern Atlantic, and a huge polar hurricane (can't describe it as anything less) forms near Svalbard and drops rapidly south. This will have to be watched because as impressive as the current maps appear, if this feature were to hold together somewhat longer it would engulf Britain and Ireland in a very strong northerly of sub-freezing temperatures which is almost what the maps show now ... the only difference being that the northerly is rather strong instead of very strong.

    I can't stress strongly enough that this will be a major winter weather onslaught and not just a drop in temperatures with a few local flurries.

    This is like turning the eastern Atlantic into the Great Lakes, almost, when you have this much cold air rushing south this fast, it overcomes the normal tendencies of the Atlantic to modify air masses and turn streamers to mush. This setup could give blizzard like conditions even with winds somewhat west of due north, in many parts of Ireland. And we aren't that confident that the setup is perfectly modelled yet, what's probably equally likely at this point is that the polar low will drop into the North Sea and pull Siberian air across into the N-NE flow on following days. There is also a lot of super-cold air waiting to head west from central to northwest Russia and around Novaya Zemlya.

    When this polar hurricane develops, winds are going to be 50-70 knots around Jan Mayen with temperatures of -12 C ... the ice margin will probably shift south in this period to reach limits not seen in recent years, and the Baltic Sea is rapidly freezing and spilling out 0-2 C water into the North Sea. All of these factors are building blocks towards what may become an epochal cold spell for Ireland and Britain in the next 20-30 day interval. :eek::pac:


    Wow ,

    How long do you feel this cold spell from Thursday is going to last MT ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    Looking at the 18z GFS run, the signal continues to intensify for a very strong arctic outbreak starting around Thursday on this run ... basically what happens is that the high which gave the thaw and is now slowly chilling overhead is stretched out and destroyed by sudden events to the north where the Greenland high captures the height anomaly from the eastern Atlantic, and a huge polar hurricane (can't describe it as anything less) forms near Svalbard and drops rapidly south. This will have to be watched because as impressive as the current maps appear, if this feature were to hold together somewhat longer it would engulf Britain and Ireland in a very strong northerly of sub-freezing temperatures which is almost what the maps show now ... the only difference being that the northerly is rather strong instead of very strong.

    I can't stress strongly enough that this will be a major winter weather onslaught and not just a drop in temperatures with a few local flurries.

    This is like turning the eastern Atlantic into the Great Lakes, almost, when you have this much cold air rushing south this fast, it overcomes the normal tendencies of the Atlantic to modify air masses and turn streamers to mush. This setup could give blizzard like conditions even with winds somewhat west of due north, in many parts of Ireland. And we aren't that confident that the setup is perfectly modelled yet, what's probably equally likely at this point is that the polar low will drop into the North Sea and pull Siberian air across into the N-NE flow on following days. There is also a lot of super-cold air waiting to head west from central to northwest Russia and around Novaya Zemlya.

    When this polar hurricane develops, winds are going to be 50-70 knots around Jan Mayen with temperatures of -12 C ... the ice margin will probably shift south in this period to reach limits not seen in recent years, and the Baltic Sea is rapidly freezing and spilling out 0-2 C water into the North Sea. All of these factors are building blocks towards what may become an epochal cold spell for Ireland and Britain in the next 20-30 day interval. :eek::pac:

    POLAR HURRICANE!!! :eek::eek::eek: RUN!!!:eek::eek::eek:

    Thanks M.T.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,776 ✭✭✭up for anything


    I'm scared. If MT is making :eek: faces it's time to head South and I don't mean Cork. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭Pangea


    Holy bejabus, Think I need to build an underground bunker :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,343 ✭✭✭lolie


    Pangea wrote: »
    Holy bejabus, Think I need to build an underground bunker :eek:

    f**k that im headin to the bahamas. scary sh1t:eek:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    Pangea wrote: »
    Holy bejabus, Think I need to build an underground bunker :eek:

    The words "Cataclysmic Snow Event" spring to mind, all I need now is for Michael Noonan TD to do the weather forecast on wednesday evening - he could put a greater sense of doom into the best of news, imagine what he could do with this! :eek:


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