Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

The Status Of Irish.

13468923

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    No, but there is a difference between arguing that teachers should be pais the same and arguing like Iwasfrozen and suggesting that the parents who choose to send their kids to gaelscoils somehow deserve to pay for their kids education twice.

    Agreed.

    Provided the school has an open admission policy and is without fees it should be considered a state school with the tax payer burdening the cost.

    I think it is then upto the individual schools board of management (ie the parents) to decide what language (English or Irish) the school uses to teach the cirriculum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    braftery wrote: »
    I would be agreeable to making all our primary schools teach all subjects through any of the languages you mentioned provided that ALL schools that are state funded worked using a single language.

    Unfortunately if we did that, we would still have all the gaelscoileanna exerting their right to continue teaching their students in our national language. Meaning the problem of dual language sylabbus requirements would continue.
    So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

    Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.
    Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

    Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.

    I think you are reading what you want to see from it.
    There is no such constitutional right. If there was it would equally apply to Irish and the Gaelscoil movement would be far ahead of where it is now.

    That artical deals with the states use of Irish, In fact that article would allow for Irish only education. The law allows the state to operate Exclucive use of either language.


    To answer your question I would imagine they would have to be allowed to set up English medium schools off their own back in the same way gaelscoileanna are now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

    Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.


    I am advocating the idea of a single language school system.
    That system could be in English or Irish, or perhaps German if enough people liked the idea !

    I am interested in having a fair, well funded and equitable school system, that gives equal chances to all students and assists us to build an inclusive and coherent society into the future. The current Dual language system that is growing in Ireland creates inequities in the system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    braftery wrote: »
    The current Dual language system that is growing in Ireland creates inequities in the system.

    What inequities?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

    From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    What inequities?

    All teachers in galscoileanna are paid a higher salary than their counter parts in English Medium Schools

    According to the Gaelscoileanna Stats in 2009 that was 2129 full time teachers all receiving at miniumum the additional "Teaching through Irish" supplementary payment of €1,583 per year.

    Thats a net loss to the overall Dept of Education budget of €3,370,207 per year.

    Gaelscoileanna often exist in the same catchment area tas an English Medium school which his capable of handling the students from the gaelscoileanna as part of its pupils, thus the additonal costs relating to salary, supplements, ground rent, building costs, insurances for the gaelscoileanna all come out of the overall Deparment of Education budget.

    The savings that can be made by having a single language school system would amount to tens if not hundreds of millions and this could be used to better educate all our children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    braftery wrote: »
    All teachers in galscoileanna are paid a higher salary than their counter parts in English Medium Schools
    This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.

    I dont know the reasons why, I am only aware of the cost to the overall dept of Education budget.

    I dont think any of our schools, gaelscoileanna or English Middle, are struggling to find teaching staff.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.

    It proves that the ability of teachers, in general, to teach Irish which is a core curriculum subject.... is highly variable to put it kindly.

    Most newly qualified primary teachers are substantially illiterate in spoken Irish. They could not order a burger through Irish. And yet they sign up to teach a national curriculum in its entirety...not a la carte.

    I know of a secondary school in east Galway that has to do Irish language immersion in 1st year because they are getting students, effectively with no Irish, coming out of primary school. They have a lot of primary schools in their catchment and have noticed this problem coming from the MAJORITY.

    It is unacceptable that these teachers in english speaking areas are taking money for 'teaching' a curriculum and ignoring substantial portions of it.

    Were the allowance for teaching through Irish removed I would furthermore dock these primary teachers who refuse to teach a core currciulum subject in their english speaking schools by precisely the same amount for gross dereliction of duty and for a serious and ongoing breach of contract.

    If Irish is around 1/7th of the curriculum then dock these primary school teachers 1/7th of their annual salary and allowances until they display clearly that they are fulfilling their contract.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    LordSutch wrote: »
    So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

    From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.

    Perhaps the same tourist on another day hops on a plane to galway and takes a taxi out to spiddal to look at the coast. While there he enjoys some lunch in a local cafe. then takes a bus into the city and finally back to the airport.

    What would his perspective on the status of Irish be then ?

    I guess the impression all depends on where the person is standing :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 289 ✭✭feicim


    LordSutch wrote: »
    So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

    From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.


    If you travel to biarritz in france, there are signs up in basque. Its no more confusing than the french signs to be honest. lets face it all signs are confusing when you are on holiday...

    Personally I found it interesting and intriguing that there was something else going on. That some spark of a language still existed against the odds despite strong pressures over the years to kill it off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It proves that the ability of teachers, in general, to teach Irish which is a core curriculum subject.... is highly variable to put it kindly.
    So they get paid extra to teach children who wish to speak Irish and where their parents might already be native speakers?

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I know of a secondary school in east Galway that has to do Irish language immersion in 1st year because they are getting students, effectively with no Irish, coming out of primary school. They have a lot of primary schools in their catchment and have noticed this problem coming from the MAJORITY.
    It must be a difficicult task to teach children to speak a langauge against their will.

    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    If Irish is around 1/7th of the curriculum then dock these primary school teachers 1/7th of their annual salary and allowances until they display clearly that they are fulfilling their contract.
    Maybe we should get the Irish Language Enforcement agency on to it?
    braftery wrote:
    Perhaps the same tourist on another day hops on a plane to galway and takes a taxi out to spiddal to look at the coast.
    Would that be on a subsidised airline?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Deise,

    What benefit will arise from forcing a language into someone who resists?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Deise,

    What benefit will arise from forcing a language into someone who resists?


    Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.

    Have you met many children that have decided at five to point blank refuse to learn a subject based on the fact that they dont see themselves geting a job out of it in 15 years time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.
    Lack of broad popular support of Irish-language media? Massive number of people who do not use Irish in their daily lives?

    The average Irish person is as open to learning Irish as they are to learning Mandarin or Hungarian.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Lack of broad popular support of Irish-language media? Massive number of people who do not use Irish in their daily lives?

    For both of these things you need to already know Irish right?
    So how is that relevant in indicating people are not Open to Learning Irish?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    The average Irish person is as open to learning Irish as they are to learning Mandarin or Hungarian.

    I understand why you say this, but I dont think you could find anybody that would say no to being fluent in ANY other language if it was gifted to them.

    The ability of young children (4-7) to learn language is incredible. They dont see it as a subject, they dont see learning as a limited thing, that time learning one subject means that cant learn another.

    Immersion in any language will give any child the ability to speak and think in this language within months and near fluency in not much longer. I know this from personal experience.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    For both of these things you need to already know Irish right?
    Or be trying to improve your standard of comprehension.
    So how is that relevant in indicating people are not Open to Learning Irish?
    You're clutching at straws- learn from history:

    80 years have passed, billions spent, millions obliged to learn Irish, Irish-speaking jobs-for-the-boys invented, subsidies made, bonus marks given, quangos set up, grants made and the result: Irish is not being spoken by the majority, and native speakers are adopting English as their daily language.

    You've have decades to 'get it right', how much longer do we have to put up with your wasteful nonsense before you accept that the majority do not wish to speak Irish and will make no effort to learn it, no matter how persuasive and well-paid your language enforcers might be?


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    You've have decades to 'get it right', how much longer do we have to put up with your wasteful nonsense before you accept that the majority do not wish to speak Irish and will make no effort to learn it, no matter how persuasive and well-paid your language enforcers might be?


    Get over it diddums. How did you do in French at school?, peut on discuter/ecrire avoir/exprimer un avis , puis comment coutait ca en effet?

    The wilful non teaching of part of the core curriculum by up to 10,000 teachers in ENGLISH medium schools is simple breach of contract.

    Dock these slobs their 1/7th of their average €50k of pay for their non compliance ...and their pension pro rata ...and you make real savings as distinct from taking €1500 off 1,000 workers in Gaelscoileanna.

    There is a national schools inspectorate to supervise these quality issues, so use it.

    They could easily do a school a day and save the state a fortune.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Get over it diddums. How did you do in French at school?, peut on discuter/ecrire avoir/exprimer un avis , puis comment coutait ca en effet?

    The wilful non teaching of part of the core curriculum by up to 10,000 teachers in ENGLISH medium schools is simple breach of contract.

    Dock these slobs their 1/7th of their average €50k of pay for their non compliance ...and their pension pro rata ...and you make real savings as distinct from taking €1500 off 1,000 workers in Gaelscoileanna.

    There is a national schools inspectorate to supervise these quality issues, so use it.

    They could easily do a school a day and save the state a fortune.

    Yes please !

    ahem ! what I meant to say is that I think it would be great if all our teachers were really able to deliver the irish language part of the cirriculum in a fluent manner.

    if that were to happen, I think our kids would enjoy the language more .. alot more than we did !!

    Further to that I think it really should be part of teacher training that our teachers are all trained to teach through Irish. That way whatever school system we have it would be possible to make the learning of Irish less of a boring subject and more of a life experience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭DJP


    It would be great for Irish teaching if the Teacher Training College in Baile Bhuirne/Ballyvourney in Cork went ahead. The sod was turned on the development I believe over ten years ago. :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Get over it diddums. How did you do in French at school?, peut on discuter/ecrire avoir/exprimer un avis , puis comment coutait ca en effet?
    I did quite well in French and liked it and its future potential (for me) so much, I signed up for various advanced classes and conversation at the Alliance Francaise. The langauge has helped me communicate more effectively and enjoy news, cinema and documentary media from outside the hiberno/anglo/saxon domain.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The wilful non teaching of part of the core curriculum by up to 10,000 teachers in ENGLISH medium schools is simple breach of contract.
    braftery wrote:
    ahem ! what I meant to say is that I think it would be great if all our teachers were really able to deliver the irish language part of the cirriculum in a fluent manner.

    You guys are in denial, like banks and builders looking for more bailouts while ignoring reality and blaming others rather than accepting that your business case is deeply flawed. If you don't have the customers, it does not matter how talented your sales people are. Compulsory Irish just insulates you from this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    It would be great for Irish teaching if the Teacher Training College in Baile Bhuirne/Ballyvourney in Cork went ahead. The sod was turned on the development I believe over ten years ago. :confused:

    I wasnt aware of it, i agree having teacher training in an Irish speaking enviornment would be of a huge benefit to the teachers in training ... but we are already training teachers in other venues .. so I think, whereever they are trained, it is important to ensure that they are all trained to deliver all parts of the cirriculum effectively.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I did quite well in French and liked it and its future potential (for me) so much, I signed up for various advanced classes and conversation at the Alliance Francaise. The langauge has helped me communicate more effectively and enjoy news, cinema and documentary media from outside the hiberno/anglo/saxon domain.

    On t'crains pas
    You guys are in denial, like banks and builders looking for more bailouts while ignoring reality and blaming others rather than accepting that your business case is deeply flawed.

    You are the one who is in denail, your refuse to accept that contracted state employees are in breach of contract on an enormous scale and are receiving state money for it.

    At least 10,000 teachers in ENGLISH speaking areas are in receipt of state funds while not teaching the curriculum they are contracted to teach. Pro rata that is a cost of 10,000 x €7k a year or €70m wasted by the state every year and every penny of it wasted outside Gaelscoileanna...which are actually doing what they are contracted to do. An equal scandal is that there are teachers in what are designated Gaeltacht schools taking an allowance and teaching through english, particularly east of Galway City. That fiddle should not only be stopped but the fraudulent overpayments should be clawed back off them. However this fraud is on a small scale compared to the national non compliance in English speaking areas.

    Please learn some maths before you mention that river in Egypt again.
    If you don't have the customers, it does not matter how talented your sales people are. Compulsory Irish just insulates you from this.

    Thanks for concatenating 2 random clichés into one even more meaningless one. One enriches the humourless saxon language in so many little ways by so doing :D


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    On t'crains pas
    You've no need to be afraid of me, but please don't be so familiar (we are not family) and do use the correct person of the verb.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    You are the one who is in denail, your refuse to accept that contracted state employees are in breach of contract on an enormous scale and are receiving state money for it.
    So they are in breach of contract for failing to make children speak Irish against their will?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    So they are in breach of contract for failing to make children speak Irish against their will?

    Shall we try simple addition in your case. Add 10,000 7,000 times for me and revert with the answer when complete. No rush but do try to get it right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Shall we try simple addition in your case. Add 10,000 7,000 times for me and revert with the answer when complete. No rush but do try to get it right.
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=10%2C000*7%2C000+


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Shall we try simple addition in your case. Add 10,000 7,000 times for me and revert with the answer when complete. No rush but do try to get it right.
    What's that? The number of children foirced to learn Irish?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    children foirced

    Ah never mind, count in ones from base=1.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭braftery


    lol ... Tea Towels at dawn lads !! or pistols ... or what is the word in Irish ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    braftery wrote: »
    lol ... Tea Towels at dawn lads !! or pistols ... or what is the word in Irish ;)
    Won't anyone think of the children?


  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭gimme5minutes


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It proves that the ability of teachers, in general, to teach Irish which is a core curriculum subject.... is highly variable to put it kindly.

    Most newly qualified primary teachers are substantially illiterate in spoken Irish. They could not order a burger through Irish. And yet they sign up to teach a national curriculum in its entirety...not a la carte.

    I know of a secondary school in east Galway that has to do Irish language immersion in 1st year because they are getting students, effectively with no Irish, coming out of primary school. They have a lot of primary schools in their catchment and have noticed this problem coming from the MAJORITY

    Eh, wrong. You can't qualify as a primary teacher if you are terrible at Irish. Ridiculous statement. The teachers do not qualify if their Irish is not up to the required standard.

    And the reason why that secondary school you mention is getting in students with effectively no Irish is because the kids in primary school aren't bothered learning it. It has nothing to do with teachers being 'substantially illiterate' in Irish. I remember when I was back in primary school myself 20 years ago and myself and the rest of class used to be questioning why we were even learning a language that no-one speaks. I can only imagine how irrelevant it is to the kids of today who are even more clued in and connected.
    Or be trying to improve your standard of comprehension.

    You're clutching at straws- learn from history:

    80 years have passed, billions spent, millions obliged to learn Irish, Irish-speaking jobs-for-the-boys invented, subsidies made, bonus marks given, quangos set up, grants made and the result: Irish is not being spoken by the majority, and native speakers are adopting English as their daily language.

    You've have decades to 'get it right', how much longer do we have to put up with your wasteful nonsense before you accept that the majority do not wish to speak Irish and will make no effort to learn it, no matter how persuasive and well-paid your language enforcers might be?

    Spot on.
    Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.

    Em, maybe the fact that it has been forced down millions of people throats for the last 50+ years and a fortune has been spent in subsidising and promoting it yet no-one can speak it? There is absolutely no use for it it in the real world. Time to accept the harsh reality that the vast majority just have no interest in it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Eh, wrong.no-one can speak it?

    Eh wrong plenty of people can speak it, whether you are one of them is neither here nor there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭gimme5minutes


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Eh wrong plenty of people can speak it, whether you are one of them is neither here nor there.

    Yes you are correct. People can speak it. The VAST majority cant even after spending 12 years learning it. Because they are not interested in a language that has no practical use. And the only place that it is used a bit, ie the gaeltacht, they all have 100% fluent English there anyway.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Yes you are correct. People can speak it.
    So in the space of a few minutes you go from screaming "no-one" can speak it, generalising from yourself probably...to an admission that "people can speak it" , sheesh. How can one formulate a policy based on such a consistency of thought, one muses.

    My only suggestion is that the waste and fraud in the primary education system in ENGLISH speaking Ireland is removed forthwith and that pay is docked for non performance . Then if Irish is removed from the curriculum at least we don't have to increase these fraudsters salary ever again.

    The current system is like paying guards who don't bother enforcing the criminal law the same as those who do. We should not pay for what in many cases is a refusal to do the job.

    And I get all these mad monoglots shrilly ranting about Irish at me when I simply want to save the state some money...pronto.
    The VAST majority cant even after spending 12 years learning it.

    Neither can the same vast majority speak or write French, yet some the anti Irish loo laas even suggest we teach Mandarin to our population, half of which is barely literate in English never mind Irish.

    Now where were we supposed to get these Mandarin teachers from ??, jeez I have no idea :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Now where were we supposed to get these Mandarin teachers from ??, jeez I have no idea :)
    Same place we get every teacher Pinky, arts students!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Em, maybe the fact that it has been forced down millions of people throats for the last 50+ years and a fortune has been spent in subsidising and promoting it yet no-one can speak it? There is absolutely no use for it it in the real world. Time to accept the harsh reality that the vast majority just have no interest in it.

    The situation is not evidience for the reason for the situation. I disagree that you are right in your conclusion that people are not Open to Learning Irish, I would like you to provide some evidience to support your claim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Sponge Bob wrote:
    The current system is like paying guards who don't bother enforcing the criminal law the same as those who do.
    This reveals that your attitude to non-Irish speakers is that they are guilty of some kind of wrongdoing by not speaking Irish.
    The situation is not evidience for the reason for the situation. I disagree that you are right in your conclusion that people are not Open to Learning Irish, I would like you to provide some evidience to support your claim.
    It''s been pointed out to you and is abundantly obvious that the vast majority of the population do not speak Irish and make no effort to develop their ability or learn the language. This is despite years of compulsory education in Irish and exposure to very expensive state-sponsored propaganda promoting Irish.

    If this does not answer your question, then I think you will never accept the truth as it challenges your deeply held beliefs (....or vested interest in the compulsory Irish industry.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭gimme5minutes


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    So in the space of a few minutes you go from screaming "no-one" can speak it, generalising from yourself probably...to an admission that "people can speak it" , sheesh. How can one formulate a policy based on such a consistency of thought, one muses.

    If a friend asks me the question 'Many out last night', and I say 'Nah no-one out', it doesn't mean there was literally no-one out on the town. You actually thought when I said 'no-one' that I meant literally no-one in Ireland can speak Irish?? I'm not intersted in arguing semantics.
    The situation is not evidience for the reason for the situation. I disagree that you are right in your conclusion that people are not Open to Learning Irish, I would like you to provide some evidience to support your claim.

    Your beginning to sound like Brian Lenihan now. No matter what evidence is presented to you you come out with a 'I don't accept that' type sentence.

    The fact that 'it has been forced down millions of people throats for the last 50+ years and a fortune has been spent in subsidising and promoting it yet no-one can speak it' is actually more than sufficient evidence that people are not interested in learning the language. Vast sums of money and endless man hours have been spent forcing this redundant language on the Irish people and what's the end result? Nobody (not literally Sponge Bob) is able to speak it. Tell me, if that isn't sufficient evidence, what exactly would constitute sufficient evidence? I have a feeling no matter what rational arguments are put to you on this subject you would come out with a Comical Lenny type remark of 'I dont accept that'.

    Also, maybe you would be so kind as to provide some evidence to support your claim that people are open to learning Irish.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    This reveals that your attitude to non-Irish speakers is that they are guilty of some kind of wrongdoing by not speaking Irish.

    If someone is payed to teach a subject and they dont do it is that right?

    It''s been pointed out to you and is abundantly obvious that the vast majority of the population do not speak Irish and make no effort to develop their ability or learn the language. This is despite years of compulsory education in Irish and exposure to very expensive state-sponsored propaganda promoting Irish.

    If this does not answer your question, then I think you will never accept the truth as it challenges your deeply held beliefs (....or vested interest in the compulsory Irish industry.)


    I am well aware that the majority of the population do not speak Irish. You claim that this is because they reject Irish. That they are not Open to learning It.

    I want evidience of this rejection as I dont believe that Not Speaking Irish is proof of a Rejection but rather proof of a poor school curriculum that dose not teach Irish effectivly even to people who activly want to learn Irish.

    Now If there is a clear rejection of Irish by people in this country who dont speak Irish there must be some evidience of it other than their not speaking Irish.

    Instead we dont see any evidience for such a rejection. What we see is English speakers making very little noise about Irish being Compulsory in our schools(if there is a rejection of Irish by people who dont speak it would there not be more protest about Irish being tought to their Kids?)Sending their Kids to Gaelscoils in ever increasing numbers, Responding overwhealmingly that they want Irish to be preserved and Promoated when polled. Explain this.

    I have activly promoted Irish in the University that I attend. I, along with other members of the society, have spoken Irish to strangers in efforts to make it more visiable, Offering Stickers like this to people so they can show their Grá don Theanga, Out of the hundreds of people we have come in contact with
    I have only come accross people who have clearly Rejected Irish in the way you suggest Twice.

    Everyone else was happy to wear the sticker, Why? Because they are open to Irish

    Can you not understand that just because someone dosent speak a language dosent mean they are activly rejecting it.
    Every time I have asked for evidience to show that people not speaking Irish means that they actually 'reject' Irish I have been met with Nothing. Now either put up or shut up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Deise, the people you accosted dealt with you politely and diplomatically to avoid having an argument with you. I often accept stickers for inoffensive causes.

    If I am offered food that conflicts with my dietary custom, I accept it and suggest that I will eat it later. Its courtesy. But, I have discreetly rejected the food by not eating it.

    In the same way, people having been offered your gift of Irish, reject it by not speaking it or learning it. It is not a rejection of you personally, but a personal choice we are all allowed to take unless subjected to compulsory Irish lessons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Deise, the people you accosted dealt with you politely and diplomatically to avoid having an argument with you. I often accept stickers for inoffensive causes.

    If I am offered food that conflicts with my dietary custom, I accept it and suggest that I will eat it later. Its courtesy. But, I have discreetly rejected the food by not eating it.

    In the same way, people having been offered your gift of Irish, reject it by not speaking it or learning it. It is not a rejection of you personally, but a personal choice we are all allowed to take unless subjected to compulsory Irish lessons.

    Acosted? Lol

    They had to say something as Gaeilge if they wanted the Sticker. Most did no problem


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.
    Significant proportion of the population is incorrect, as the adult population have a choice.

    What counts is a significant proportion of the secondary school population.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0415/1224268372279.html
    Provisional figures released by the Department of Education show that 2,297 Leaving Certificate students will not sit this year’s Irish exam due to an exemption, but 1,326 of them intend to sit an exam in another European language.

    The figures also indicate that the numbers obtaining exemptions from learning Irish have risen from 4,497 in 2008 to 5,818 this year.

    This represents more than 10 per cent of the 55,400 students who intend to sit this year’s exams.
    The numbers who are not open to learning it are quite dramatic and presumably if a choice were given, this number would climb dramatically.

    Some of the posts in this thread even claim that there are significant proportions who are not even open to teaching it!
    Have you met many children that have decided at five to point blank refuse to learn a subject based on the fact that they dont see themselves geting a job out of it in 15 years time.

    No.
    As I said, I have no problem with the language being compulsory at primary.
    I do have a problem with the language being compulsory at secondary level, especially post Junior Cert.


    I've asked several of my nieces/nephews/young cousins etc. in recent days and things haven't changed an iota since I was at school.
    Secondary school pupils simply do not wish to learn it.
    They are being conditioned to hate it, en masse!

    I find it morally reprehensible that you are arguing in favour of mandatory forcefeeding, simply to achieve your personal objective of increasing the number of Irish speakers - which has been shown to yield the opposite result anyway, with no regard for the well being of the people who are subjected to it and no regard for the impact on the language.

    When the Taliban forcefed religion to people, it was deemed immoral.
    For some reason, the Gaelic vested interests get a free pass in this country.

    It's simply more evidence of our broken system.
    It will have to be reformed.

    It's time Brian Hayes to stop to this madness and I will fully support him.
    You are making people hate our national language.

    Also, I find it reprehensible that you have portrayed him throughout this thread as someone who hates the language, when his comments clearly indicated otherwise. This genuinely stinks of nothing more than vested interests feeling threatened.
    I believed you were passionate about the language for the language's sake.
    Now I am no longer so sure.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0415/1224268372279.html
    “It must be acknowledged that compulsion, as the political engine to revive the Irish language, has failed,” Mr Hayes added. “Forcing students to learn Irish is not working, and is actually driving many young people away from any real engagement with this beautiful language.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    http://www.gaeltachttravel.com/gaeltacht-regions/statistics-on-the-gaeltacht-and-the-irish-language/

    An Irish speaker is defined as a person who claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life.(A.K.A A romanticist - codding yourself that you can speak it)
    nb_irish_speakers.gif
    According to census figures from 2002, released by Central Statistics Office of Ireland (CSO, cso.ie), on the night of Sunday, 28 April 2002, there was 1,570,894 Irish speakers in the country as opposed to 2,180,101 Non-Irish speakers. An Irish speaker is defined as a person who claims that they can speak Irish, but who do not necessarily use it in their daily life. The largest number of Irish speakers live in Leinster (511,639), followed by Munster (352,177), Connacht (162,680) and the three counties of Ulster which are in the Republic (69,334). However the percentage of Irish speakers is the lowest in Leinster (38.2%), the highest in Connacht and Munster (48.5% and 46.8% respectively).

    The democratic majority of people in every Provence in Ireland have said on a census form that they cannot speak Irish.
    Not even mass immigration can hide the fact that compulsory forcefeeding is not working.

    Surprisingly the largest percentage of people with ability to speak Irish is in the age groups between 10 and 24 years of age (10-14 years: 68.7%; 15- 19 years: 66.3%; 20-24 years: 51.2%), probably because of the obligatory teaching of Irish in schools.
    These figures quite clearly proves that once the mandatory forcefeeding is complete, the vast majority abandon the language.
    It even suggests the majority of the adult population despise the language!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Note that the number of NON-Irish speakers has started growing again.
    http://www.cso.ie/statistics/irishspeakerssince1861.htm


    2,400,856 as of 2006
    http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/Saveshow.asp


    The facts are undeniable:
    http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=75621
    Compulsory forcefeeding is not working!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Significant proportion of the population is incorrect, as the adult population have a choice.

    What counts is a significant proportion of the secondary school population.
    Provisional figures released by the Department of Education show that 2,297 Leaving Certificate students will not sit this year’s Irish exam due to an exemption, but 1,326 of them intend to sit an exam in another European language.

    The figures also indicate that the numbers obtaining exemptions from learning Irish have risen from 4,497 in 2008 to 5,818 this year.

    This represents more than 10 per cent of the 55,400 students who intend to sit this year’s exams.


    The numbers who are not open to learning it are quite dramatic and presumably if a choice were given, this number would climb dramatically.

    Some of the posts in this thread even claim that there are significant proportions who are not even open to teaching it!


    Someone has made a miscalculation somewhere, You say 10%.

    Well, The first bit says that only 2297 or 4.1% of the exam class will not be sitting the exam.

    Factor in that it would seam 1326 of that 2297 will not be taking a European language for the LC so it is reasonable to assume that they probably do have some difficulty that prevents them learning Irish.

    Reducing the Figure who could do Irish but get an exemption to 971 or 1.75%

    So I will accept that on that basis just under 2% are not open to learning Irish. But that would mean 98% are open to it right? Thats quite the majority.





    I've asked several of my nieces/nephews/young cousins etc. in recent days and things haven't changed an iota since I was at school.
    Secondary school pupils simply do not wish to learn it.
    They are being conditioned to hate it, en masse!

    Did they say they hated Irish? What did you ask?

    I find it morally reprehensible that you are arguing in favour of mandatory forcefeeding, simply to achieve your personal objective of increasing the number of Irish speakers - which has been shown to yield the opposite result anyway, with no regard for the well being of the people who are subjected to it and no regard for the impact on the language.

    When the Taliban forcefed religion to people, it was deemed immoral.
    For some reason, the Gaelic vested interests get a free pass in this country.

    Leave your moral outrage at the door:rolleyes: There is nothing wrong with children Learning Irish, There can actually be benefits when its done right.

    Are you really trying to compare Irish being a compulsory subject in our school system to the Taliban? LOL.


    It's simply more evidence of our broken system.
    It will have to be reformed.

    I have been arguing for reform for quite some time;)
    It's time Brian Hayes to stop to this madness and I will fully support him.
    You are making people hate our national language.

    I disagree completely,
    The poor curriculum that is in place is what is turning people away from Irish, And I certainly hope Brian Hayes or whoever takes over education puts an end to it.
    Also, I find it reprehensible that you have portrayed him throughout this thread as someone who hates the language, when his comments clearly indicated otherwise. This genuinely stinks of nothing more than vested interests feeling threatened.
    I believed you were passionate about the language for the language's sake.
    Now I am no longer so sure.

    Portrayed who? Brian Hayes? I have not even mentioned his name once, neither has any article I have linked to in this thread. I suggest you read the thread again.:mad:

    There are enough non-senseical arguments floating around here without making stuff up.


    These figures quite clearly proves that once the mandatory forcefeeding is complete, the vast majority abandon the language.
    It even suggests the majority of the adult population despise the language!

    The fact is that there are few opportunities available to use Irish outside the education system. Its a fact that if you don't use a second language you will lose it weather you want to or not,
    There is more than one explination for people losing their Irish later in life, rejection is only one possibility. You have yet to show that rejection is the cause of the loss of Irish in later life.
    The democratic majority of people in every Provence in Ireland have said on a census form that they cannot speak Irish.
    Not even mass immigration can hide the fact that compulsory forcefeeding is not working.

    Have they said that they are not open to learning Irish? They obviously don't mind their kids learning Irish in school. Not being able to do something=/= to rejecting something.

    Curriculum is not working;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Someone has made a miscalculation somewhere, You say 10%.

    Well, The first bit says that only 2297 or 4.1% of the exam class will not be sitting the exam.

    So I will accept that on that basis just under 2% are not open to learning Irish. But that would mean 98% are open to it right? Thats quite the majority.

    Are you having me on?

    2.3k will not be sitting an exam.
    10% of people have received an exemption from learning the language entirely (i.e. will not even learn the language, not to mind sit an exam)
    Factor in that it would seam 1326 of that 2297 will not be taking a European language for the LC so it is reasonable to assume that they probably do have some difficulty that prevents them learning Irish.
    LMAO.
    Ah come off it, in fairness, I'm giving you statistical facts and you are plucking your own variables/assumptions out of thin air (based on incorrect assumptions) in order to misrepresent the outcome.:pac:
    Reducing the Figure who could do Irish but get an exemption to 971 or 1.75%
    Wrong.

    If there are 55,000 pupils and more than 5,500 have requested an exemption from learning Irish, then that is more than 10%

    Even more ridiculous is that you have now totally changed position.
    You intially argued that giving a choice undeniably causes uptake to plummet, yet you are now claiming a completely different outcome in order to arrive at the result you desire.
    This is utterly irrational.

    You are no longer even debating the subject, you have now resorted to misrepresenting the truth in spite of the facts I have provided at your request.

    The fact remains - mandatory forcefeeiding is not working & many pupils are not open to learning the language.

    Prove this is wrong, with evidence.
    Did they say they hated Irish? What did you ask?
    I asked them if they enjoy learning Irish in school, answer was No.
    Put forward my ideas about learning it - change focus more to spoken and involving more current subject matter - answer was still No.
    Asked if it was optional, would they would swap it from something else, answer was yes - no two answers were the same, but all wanted to swap for something else.

    I asked if there was some other subject they hate, would like to swap - some of the girls said Honours Maths, the lads said it's more a case of wanting to do other subjects like woodwork too.
    Leave your moral outrage at the door:rolleyes:
    OK, how about I call round and force your kids to learn Judeo-Crimean Tatar language everyday? On the condition that they cannot learn Irish at all.
    This is the opportunity cost.

    It'll put a few handy quid in my back pocket and they will have lost their opportunity to learn Irish as you desire for them, sound fair?.
    There is nothing wrong with children Learning Irish, There can actually be benefits when its done right.

    But we are not talking about children, are we?
    We're talking about Secondary school students - in the specific case where they do not wish to learn a language and it is forced into them against their will - as show by facts from the department of education.
    And as happens the length and breadth of this country every school day for the last 80 odd years, so much so that the incoming MoE wishes to change the system.
    But you are arguing against this based solely on your opinion, which is biased and devoid of facts to support it.
    Are you really trying to compare Irish being a compulsory subject in our school system to the Taliban? LOL.
    That statement proves just how disconnected from reality you are.
    You really have no idea how pupils feel about the compulsory forcefeeding of Irish Language by the Irish Language Taliban.

    Some of the statements throughout this thread propose that we conduct all education in Irish, that Hiberno-English speakers are doing something wrong by not speaking Irish.

    Whatever happened to liberty?
    I have been arguing for reform for quite some time;)
    No.
    You are arguing for reform of the curriculum.
    You are not in favour of reforming the ridiculous oppression of students.
    I disagree completely,
    The poor curriculum that is in place is what is turning people away from Irish,
    Prove it.
    The fact is that there are few opportunities available to use Irish outside the education system. Its a fact that if you don't use a second language you will lose it weather you want to or not,
    Now you are completely contradicting yourself.
    Myself, Cyclopath and several others put this argument to you several pages ago and you claimed there were numerous employment opportunities and chances to use it.
    Based on the CSO figures I'm looking at, there are only 69k fluent speakers in the entire country. That's less that the amount of fluent Polish Speakers in Ireland!
    There is more than one explination for people losing their Irish later in life, rejection is only one possibility. You have yet to show that rejection is the cause of the loss of Irish in later life.
    Clutching at straws.
    What reason do you propose?
    Full frontal lobotomy?
    For the entire 2.3 million people who do not speak it?
    Maybe they all got exemptions?
    Or maybe they just didn't go to school at all?

    Occam's razor says the cause is rejection.
    Have they said that they are not open to learning Irish? They obviously don't mind their kids learning Irish in school. Not being able to do something=/= to rejecting something.

    Curriculum is not working;)

    2.3 million people cannot speak it after 8-12 years schooling!?
    Damn rite the curriculum ain't working!!!
    And more importantly, making it compulsory hasn't change that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Are you having me on?

    2.3k will not be sitting an exam.
    10% of people have received an exemption from learning the language entirely (i.e. will not even learn the language, not to mind sit an exam)


    LMAO.
    Ah come off it, in fairness, I'm giving you statistical facts and you are plucking your own variables/assumptions out of thin air (based on incorrect assumptions) in order to misrepresent the outcome.:pac:


    Wrong.

    If there are 55,000 pupils and more than 5,500 have requested an exemption from learning Irish, then that is more than 10%


    It says plain as day that the number not sitting the exam is 2297, Now how that makes 10% of 55400 I dont know,

    What dose the number 5818 relate to? Is that the Figure exempt over 2 ears? If so then it is wrong to claim that 10% are not doing the Irish for LC as the % is clearly 4.1

    Even more ridiculous is that you have now totally changed position.
    You intially argued that giving a choice undeniably causes uptake to plummet, yet you are now claiming a completely different outcome in order to arrive at the result you desire.
    This is utterly irrational.

    What? I am pointing out a flaw in the Claim of 10% that was put forward.

    You are no longer even debating the subject, you have now resorted to misrepresenting the truth in spite of the facts I have provided at your request.

    The article you put forward said that there will be 2297 students not sitting the Irish exam this year true? That is not 10% of 55400:rolleyes:

    The fact remains - mandatory forcefeeiding is not working & many pupils are not open to learning the language.

    Prove this is wrong, with evidence.

    Sort out your own 'evidience' first.:rolleyes:

    I asked them if they enjoy learning Irish in school, answer was No.
    Put forward my ideas about learning it - change focus more to spoken and involving more current subject matter - answer was still No.
    Asked if it was optional, would they would swap it from something else, answer was yes - no two answers were the same, but all wanted to swap for something else.

    I asked if there was some other subject they hate, would like to swap - some of the girls said Honours Maths, the lads said it's more a case of wanting to do other subjects like woodwork too.


    Im not surprised, I have said that the way Irish is tought now turns people off Irish, Why do you think I want Irish to be reformed?
    OK, how about I call round and force your kids to learn Judeo-Crimean Tatar language everyday? On the condition that they cannot learn Irish at all.
    This is the opportunity cost.


    What?

    It'll put a few handy quid in my back pocket and they will have lost their opportunity to learn Irish as you desire for them, sound fair?.

    ?
    But we are not talking about children, are we?
    We're talking about Secondary school students - in the specific case where they do not wish to learn a language and it is forced into them against their will - as show by facts from the department of education.
    And as happens the length and breadth of this country every school day for the last 80 odd years, so much so that the incoming MoE wishes to change the system.
    But you are arguing against this based solely on your opinion, which is biased and devoid of facts to support it.


    Im sorry but you are making a lot of assumptions there.
    That statement proves just how disconnected from reality you are.
    You really have no idea how pupils feel about the compulsory forcefeeding of Irish Language by the Irish Language Taliban.

    Irish language Taliban:confused: Grow up:rolleyes:
    There is no need to be confrontational and there is no need for name-calling.
    Now, I am well aware that students do not Like Irish. The point I am making is that students dont dislike Irish Because it is compulsory. They dislike Irish because of its poor curriculum.
    Some of the statements throughout this thread propose that we conduct all education in Irish, that Hiberno-English speakers are doing something wrong by not speaking Irish.

    Firstly, You are the one coming to that conclusion, I have never said such a thing so stop trying to misrepresent me.
    Secondaly, I am not the one who has argued for an all Irish education system.
    Whatever happened to liberty?

    What ever happned to proportion?
    Stop with the ott arguments, Liberty? We are not talking about some program of forced cultural indoctrination imposed on the population against their will.
    We are talking about a subject in school.
    No.
    You are arguing for reform of the curriculum.
    You are not in favour of reforming the ridiculous oppression of students.

    What oppresion? We are talking about a school subject like English and maths.:confused:
    Prove it.


    English is compulsory, Students dont hate English even though its compulsory therfore students seam not to hate something just because its compulsory so there must be some other factor, In fact there is, Irish has a very poor curriculum, that must be the other factor that is turning student off.
    Now you are completely contradicting yourself.
    Myself, Cyclopath and several others put this argument to you several pages ago and you claimed there were numerous employment opportunities and chances to use it.
    Based on the CSO figures I'm looking at, there are only 69k fluent speakers in the entire country. That's less that the amount of fluent Polish Speakers in Ireland!

    There are employment opportunities. There is a list of them. Dose that = Opportunities to use Irish for people not In those jobs? No.
    Clutching at straws.
    What reason do you propose?
    Full frontal lobotomy?
    For the entire 2.3 million people who do not speak it?
    Maybe they all got exemptions?
    Or maybe they just didn't go to school at all?

    Or, Maybe, And this may sound crazy to you so bear with me, There is a poor curriculum which faild to teach much Irish in the first place and limited oppertunities for use ment they lost the little they had through lack of use.

    Occam's razor says the cause is rejection.

    The simplest explanation is that there is a poor curriculum for Irish in School(The dogs in the street know this) which fails to teach Irish to students regardless of their Interest.

    2.3 million people cannot speak it after 8-12 years schooling!?
    Damn rite the curriculum ain't working!!!
    And more importantly, making it compulsory hasn't change that.

    Why would making something compulsory affect its curriculum? They are two separate things.
    The only way to make the curriculum work is to reform it, Making it optional or leaving it compulsory wont affect the curriculum one bit.


    Now some advice. If you are going to claim someone is contradicting themselves you need to be right.
    And if you are going to come to a conclusion on an issue you need to look at other possible explanations other than the one you want/expect.;)


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Deise,

    C'mon man - this is a very poor show.
    I've taken the time to write the post and get the facts, do at least try to debate the facts as presented instead of evading everything.

    Please don't run from the debate with answers such as 'what?' and '?'

    If you claim I'm making a lot of assumptions, you need to outline what those assumptions are.

    You have evaded every question I have put to you in my last post.

    If you would like to continue the debate, please go back and address them
    Otherwise, I will take it that you are unable to refute them and you agree that you are wrong.

    As regards the statistics; here it is 2 more times
    (you asked for proof that significant number of students are not 'open' to learning Irish - here it is, plain as day -> students are playing the system to learn a different language instead:P)
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0414/1224268309255.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0413/breaking55.html
    More than half of the students granted an exemption from studying Irish for the Leaving Certificate due to a learning difficulty over the last three years have sat or intend to sit other European language exams such as French or German, data from the Department of Education shows.

    The figures show 2,119 pupils were granted an exemption from taking Irish in the 2008-2009 school year due to learning disabilities, but more than 1,200 studied another European language.

    In the 2007-2008 school year, 1,772 students got a similar exemption. The figures show, 1,210 studied other European languages over the period.

    Provisional figures this year’s crop of Leaving Certificate students show 2,297 students will not sit the Irish exam due to an exemption, but 1,326 of those intend to sit an exam in another European language.

    The figures, obtained initially by RTÉ under the Freedom of Information Act but released generally by the Department of Education today, indicate the total numbers obtaining exemptions from learning Irish has risen from 4,497 in 2008 to 5,818 this year.

    The latter figure corresponds to more than 10 per cent of 55,400 students intending to sit this year’s exams, and adds weight to suggestions by many in the sector that some students were deliberately exploiting the exemption criteria to avoid studying Irish.

    Now, please go back and address the questions and points I put to you in my previous post rather than evade everything.


Advertisement