The Status Of Irish.

DJP

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Preaseisiuinti/file,9801,ie.pdf

Sand

The status of Irish has to be measured within the context of the Irish state raising maybe 33 billion in revenue, and 25% of that being extracted to pay interest on debt. Given the state has responsibilities to provide basic law enforcement, defence, health, education and social transfers...how much is going to be left to pursue "would be nice if we could all speak Irish" type objectives when 12 million euro cant be found to pay for cancer tests?

I know the Gaelic Leaguers have a near fanatical mindset which wouldnt mind seeing the children of Ireland starving, so long as they were begging as Gaelige, but we need to properly prioritise how taxpayers money is going to be spent in future, and culture wars need to be right down at the bottom of the list.

Thats the status of Irish in the context of the Irish budget.

LordSutch

Agreed^ problem is though, even if this country was on its knees again like it was in the 1970s,80s, Irish would still be promoted even more vigourously (as it was then), almost as if it was the very life blood of the Irish people, with millions being pumped in & wasted on an Irish population who largely don't want it in their day to day lives!

One anti (compulsory Irish) argument I heard many years ago, was that the vast sums of money being thrown at the teaching & translation of the Irish language, was akin to trying to fill the bath with the plug half out, and just like the disappearing bath water "most Irish students" will continue to slip through the system (for ever) without picking up a language they just don't want to speak!

Make Irish optional I say, let people enjoy it, take away the force feeding.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

One anti (compulsory Irish) argument I heard many years ago, was that the vast sums of money being thrown at the teaching & translation of the Irish language, was akin to trying to fill the bath with the plug half out, and just like the disappearing bath water "most Irish students" will continue to slip through the system (for ever) without picking up a language they just don't want to speak!

Make Irish optional I say, let people enjoy it, take away the force feeding.

I would say that the current system is like trying to fill a bath with a flower pot, Ie most of what you want to put in is lost before it gets there because you are using the wrong tool(Poor Curriculum) for the job.

Reform the Curriculum I say, Let people Enjoy it, Give Irish A Chance

cyclopath2001

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/Preaseisiuinti/file,9801,ie.pdf

Just one study? You said 'studies'. The much hackneyed one you have quoted was drafted by the Irish language lobby and interpreted by them to promote their views. Its somewhat notorious in threads discussing Irish.

Where does it ask if people agree with compulsory Irish teaching?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote:

Reform the Curriculum I say, Let people Enjoy it, Give Irish A Chance

Still keeping to the CnaG playbook?

You don't mean 'let', you mean 'make people enjoy it'.

You want to give Irish a chance, but you give the children no choice.

Chuchoter

We literally just reformed it guys! I'm the first year doing this new course, I still don't like Irish and its still totally useless! Even if I did enjoy it, its like learning Latin. Lovely to know, not getting you all that many jobs.

deise go deo

crayolastereo wrote: »

We literally just reformed it guys! I'm the first year doing this new course, I still don't like Irish and its still totally useless! Even if I did enjoy it, its like learning Latin. Lovely to know, not getting you all that many jobs.

That wasent reform, That was a slight change to the % given to the Oral Exam.

A step in the right direction sure, but only a small one.

Chuchoter

Actually, it was a pretty massive change. Aural and oral are now half the entire paper. There are less poems and no stair na gaeilge. This was what people were calling for, but really the only thing its going to do is make sure the only people getting high marks are the ones who can afford to go to the gaeltacht every year, because (as a result of everyone having to study it) class sizes are so big for Irish, oral work is a near impossibility.

galwaystudent

deise go deo wrote: »

Reform the Curriculum I say, Let people Enjoy it, Give Irish A Chance

If people are so open to learning Irish why would you be against making it optional? Surely if students were open to learning it they would choose to study it.

And can you explain exactly what is the problem with curriculum as it stands? What makes it worse than the French, German, Spanish, etc.. curriculums?

And for my opinion on the matter. I have nothing against the Irish language and want to see it continue but it is frankly ridiculous in this day and age forcing it on people. It is not an essential subject like Maths or English. In fact it is prob the least useful subject in secondary schools apart from religion. So why force people who have no interest in it into learning something that is practically useless?

A huge % of people will drop Irish if it's not compulsory, I know from my own school that about 90% of my classmates would've dropped it if given the chance. The ones who'd keep it on are the ones who are interested in Irish and the ones who have a flair for languages. These are the ones who keep the language alive and have always kept it alive. The rest dont bother with it anyway once they finish school, so why waste their time and the states money forcing them to learn it?

deise go deo

crayolastereo wrote: »

Actually, it was a pretty massive change. Aural and oral are now half the entire paper. There are less poems and no stair na gaeilge. This was what people were calling for, but really the only thing its going to do is make sure the only people getting high marks are the ones who can afford to go to the gaeltacht every year, because (as a result of everyone having to study it) class sizes are so big for Irish, oral work is a near impossibility.

Ya 50%, You realize that that is up from 40%? Not a big change really, Stair na gaeilge consisted of 2 classes at the start of 5th year, again, no big change.

What they did was put a nice little sticking plaster on the curriculum to keep things ticking over until they shuffle off at the next GE.

The class size need not have an impact on oral work, there are ways of doing oral work where everyone can get practice speaking in the class.

gimme5minutes

deise go deo, what would be the language you would be least interested in learning? Say something like some little used chinese dialect that you will never use in your day to day life...Would you be happy if you were forced to learn this language for the leaving cert instead of a subject that you are intereseted in and that can actually be used to get a job?

deise go deo

gimme5minutes wrote: »

deise go deo, what would be the language you would be least interested in learning? Say something like some little used chinese dialect that you will never use in your day to day life...Would you be happy if you were forced to learn this language for the leaving cert instead of a subject that you are intereseted in and that can actually be used to get a job?

I never really tought about it, It makes little difference, Its not a like for like comparaison.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I never really tought about it, It makes little difference, Its not a like for like comparaison.

deise go deo wrote: »

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?
Personally I believe the proposal for reform of Irish language education put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best and most successful way forward.

Instead of thinking about the waste and harm current the Irish language enforcement policy causes, you just toe the line of your Great Leader?

Maybe you should think about it.

gimme5minutes

deise go deo wrote: »

I never really tought about it, It makes little difference, Its not a like for like comparaison.

Well do think about it and give me an answer. Learning Irish for me and the vast majority of Irish people might as well be the same as learning some little used chinese dialect as neither are used day to day and neither will be any good for getting a job. So tell me, if a little used chinese dialect was forced on you instead of a subject you were interested in and helped you to get a job would you be happy with that situation?

deise go deo

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Well do think about it and give me an answer. Learning Irish for me and the vast majority of Irish people might as well be the same as learning some little used chinese dialect as neither are used day to day and neither will be any good for getting a job. So tell me, if a little used chinese dialect was forced on you instead of a subject you were interested in and helped you to get a job would you be happy with that situation?

Again, its not like with like. There are no jobs in Ireland for some little known Chinese dialect. There are quite a few for Irish. Irish can help you get a job;)

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Again, its not like with like. There are no jobs in Ireland for some little known Chinese dialect. There are quite a few for Irish. Irish can help you get a job;)

So, regardless of the harm and waste involved, compulsory Irish is justified as part of the Irish language eco-system where artificial demand is created by laws brought in at the behest of your chums in CnAG and jobs 'created' satisfying this demand for teachers and translators.

No wonder we're in such a mess.

gimme5minutes

deise go deo wrote: »

Again, its not like with like. There are no jobs in Ireland for some little known Chinese dialect. There are quite a few for Irish. Irish can help you get a job;)

I didnt think I needed to mention it explicitly but I suppose I do. Irish language is not good far any jobs bar teaching and made up state sponsored jobs to keep the Irish language lobby happy. So when it comes to real world jobs we might as well be dealing with a little known Chinese dialect as with the Irish language. So please answer the question.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Again, its not like with like. There are no jobs in Ireland for some little known Chinese dialect. There are quite a few for Irish. Irish can help you get a job;)

Yet earlier in the page, he claimed 55,000 pupils learning economics instead of Irish is a bad idea cause there aren't enough jobs to go around:rolleyes:

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I didnt think I needed to mention it explicitly but I suppose I do. Irish language is not good far any jobs bar teaching and made up state sponsored jobs to keep the Irish language lobby happy. So when it comes to real world jobs we might as well be dealing with a little known Chinese dialect as with the Irish language. So please answer the question.

He won't answer it, he'll cower from it.
He knows it will prove you are correct and he is incorrect.

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

Reform the Curriculum I say, Let people Enjoy it, Give Irish A Chance

"Give Irish a chance" Like eighty years+ isnt enough time?

deise go deo

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I didnt think I needed to mention it explicitly but I suppose I do. Irish language is not good far any jobs bar teaching and made up state sponsored jobs to keep the Irish language lobby happy. So when it comes to real world jobs we might as well be dealing with a little known Chinese dialect as with the Irish language. So please answer the question.

Thats not entirly true now is it, There are busineses that operate through Irish, Like this one for example. Nematon (The two ould fellas in that video used to live near my granny)

Secondly, what difference dose it make to someone looking for a job if the job available is state sponcered or not? Its still there, it still puts food on the table.

Not so with your little known Chinese dialect.;)

Dannyboy, give this 'cowering' lark a rest:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats not entirly true now is it, There are busineses that operate through Irish, Like this one for example....

But the only customer for Irish-langauge material is TG4, using the proceeds of its state subsidy to buy the material. It's not commercially viable without the Irish Language Laws. Any other examples?

deise go deo wrote: »

Secondly, what difference dose it make to someone looking for a job if the job available is state sponcered or not? Its still there, it still puts food on the table.

Are you paying attention to current affairs?

deise go deo wrote: »

Not so with your little known Chinese dialect.;)

Irish people with a command of one of Chinese languages may be able to use this skill to earn badly needed income for our country. The same cannot be said of Irish.

But, let's get back on the topic (which you opened). Justify (in your own words) the continued existence of Compulsory Irish.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats not entirly true now is it, There are busineses that operate through Irish, Like this one for example. Nematon (The two ould fellas in that video used to live near my granny)

Not so with your little known Chinese dialect.;)

Under compulsory Irish as you advocate - there are 55,000 pupils sitting the leaving cert per year.

Are there 55,000 Irish speaking jobs available per year in Ireland or worldwide?
If Yes, provide evidence.
If No, you cannot justify compulsory Irish.

Sponge Bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If Yes, provide evidence.
If No, you cannot justify compulsory Irish.

Are there 55,000 French speaking jobs ....well jobs for the gobble spoken as French by the average Irish person.

We have actually failed to teach every language in Ireland, particularly a decent standard and consistent of the saxon english tongue and less particularly second languages...be they French or Irish or whatever. We have utterly ( or is that "OMG sooooooooo OMG") failed our wannabe monoglots. The average Dutch 15 year old can converse properly in a more generally intelligble form of english than the average Dub can.

Half of Dublin grunts along daily in a palimpsest of unintelligible prattle underpinned by stream of illiterate txtspeak, I am informed that many of these are speaking 'English' .

Based on verifiable outcomes we should stop teaching english. Since the foundation of the state we have merely cultured aural abominations like skanger and dort rather than proper english.

Epic fail people

MysticalRain

Google, Facebook and Paypal are constantly recruiting people who can speak European languages. Those are real jobs. Not artificially created jobs that exist sole due to state subsidies and regulation.

Sponge Bob

MysticalRain wrote: »

Google, Facebook and Paypal are constantly recruiting people who can speak European languages.

Google, Facebook and Paypal are constantly recruiting ( EUROPEAN ) people who can ( NATIVELY ) speak European languages. Those are real jobs for real Europeans, not the linguistically addled natives.

They hire the odd Paddy in low paid security jobs to run outside and say things like "get youse ourra here" to the lurking local skangers.

MysticalRain

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Google, Facebook and Paypal are constantly recruiting ( EUROPEAN ) people who can ( NATIVELY ) speak European languages. Those are real jobs for real Europeans, not the linguistically addled natives.
I know. Perhaps if we spent more time teaching European languages at school, then we wouldn't have to be importing foreigners to fill jobs here. I consider that a national disgrace.

They hire the odd Paddy in low paid security jobs to run outside and say things like "get youse ourra here" to the lurking local skangers.

Most of us in this country can speak English quite well thank you very much.

Sponge Bob

MysticalRain wrote: »

Most of us in this country can speak English quite well thank you very much.

That is not what you implied, you implied that we got those jobs where speaking European languages are a requisite/prerequisite.

"Google, Facebook and Paypal" often hire foreigners, in preference to the denizens of Pearse Street and Blanchardstown, or indeed Monkstown or Malahide ...for jobs where one must speak and otherwise communicate in english.

Have you ever asked yourself why ???

Dannyboy83

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Are there 55,000 French speaking jobs

In Ireland, No.
Outside Ireland, Yes.
As opposed to Irish (in Ireland, No. Outside Ireland, No.)

175 million French speakers around the world. Approximately 80 million speak it as a first language, 190 million people as a second language, and by about another 200 million people as an acquired language. French is mostly spoken significantly in 54 countries around the world.

Irish: 69,000 people speak it fluently. (Fluent Polish speakers are more numerous in Ireland)

well jobs for the gobble spoken as French by the average Irish person

On the law of probability alone, there are significantly more jobs for the gobble spoken as French by Irish people, than the gobble spoken as Irish by Irish people.
Therefore, it's impossible to justify the mandatory forcefeeding of the language in 21st Century Ireland, given that it yields the smallest potential benefit of any languages taught in Ireland.

We have actually failed to teach every language in Ireland, particularly a decent standard and consistent of the saxon english tongue and less particularly second languages...be they French or Irish or whatever. We have utterly ( or is that "OMG sooooooooo OMG") failed our wannabe monoglots. The average Dutch 15 year old can converse properly in a more generally intelligble form of english than the average Dub can.

Half of Dublin grunts along daily in a palimpsest of unintelligible prattle underpinned by stream of illiterate txtspeak, I am informed that many of these are speaking 'English' .

Based on verifiable outcomes we should stop teaching english. Since the foundation of the state we have merely cultured aural abominations like skanger and dort rather than proper english.

There are more nobel literary prizes per head of population in Ireland than in England.
Clearly Hiberno-English is appreciated by someone.

By even if that were the case, it would mean compulsory Irish cannot be justified when so many people struggle with the vernacular.

I do agree with you tho, in that we need to sort out our priorities.
If people cannot reach a certain standard of English and Maths, then inconsequential subjects such as Irish simply must be made optional.

MysticalRain

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is not what you implied, you implied that we got those jobs where speaking European languages are a requisite/prerequisite.

"Google, Facebook and Paypal" often hire foreigners, in preference to the denizens of Pearse Street and Blanchardstown, or indeed Monkstown or Malahide ...for jobs where one must speak and otherwise communicate in english.

Have you ever asked yourself why ???

I've worked in call centres myself along side Europeans. So if you know something that I already don't, please enlighten me.