The Status Of Irish.

feicim

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is it? Isn't teaching children through Irish only to the benifite of the Irish language, it brings no benifit to the children. Any benifites plus additional benifites could be achieved through teaching them in any language.


The the parents of children attending Gaelscoils should pay for it.



There are two things I'd like to point out here.

1. First off the language a child is taught in has nothing to do with the class size.
2. Are smaller class sizes really better? Afterall smaller class sizes means more money is paid in teachers wages, which means there is less money for other things that can help children learn i.e textbooks, games, p.e equipment etc.

At last!


Nodies denying them an education in Irish as things are.


We agree on this also, so why teach primary school through Irish?


You're right, it's one of our national lanuages. So why must we put up with smug gaelgeoirs telling us we must support their gravy train for "our national language".

I'm assuming (judging by your spelling) you are not a native to these shores? I've never seen benefit spelled with a "e" at the end before...

Iwasfrozen

feicim wrote: »

I'm assuming (judging by your spelling) you are not a native to these shores? I've never seen benefit spelled with a "e" at the end before...

That's nice. You really added a lot to the debate by judging my spelling.

feicim

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's nice. You really added a lot to the debate by judging my spelling.

I'm just curious that's all! You don't have to answer if you don't want to...

Iwasfrozen

feicim wrote: »

I'm just curious that's all! You don't have to answer if you don't want to...

I'm judging (by your name) that you are in favour of compulsory mass irish language education in our schools?

I'm just curious is all, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

feicim

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm judging (by your name) that you are in favour of compulsory mass irish language education in our schools?

I'm just curious is all, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

You judge correct. mass irish language compulsory education for all. Peig to be given a sainthood and televised 1/2 hour lessons in the tuiseal gineadach to replace coronation st and eastenders.

PS: I don't know why you put "mass" in there "mass" things are never good, mass-murder, mass-hysteria etc. "Mass" irish language education would be the exception though.:p

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So if we are in agreement that any second language is a benifite to a child and teaching that child a modern european language will give additional benifites then why is it in our advantage to make all primary schools irish speaking instead of French, German or Chinese speaking?

I would be agreeable to making all our primary schools teach all subjects through any of the languages you mentioned provided that ALL schools that are state funded worked using a single language.

Unfortunately if we did that, we would still have all the gaelscoileanna exerting their right to continue teaching their students in our national language. Meaning the problem of dual language sylabbus requirements would continue.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why not just take the much simpler option and demand parents of children attending gaelscoils pay for their own damn sylabbus?

Because we live in a democracy that is founded on a constitution that states .... we have covered this ground already ! And that entitles all citizens the right to state education in the National Language. The state and therefore the tax payer will always have to foot the bill.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Seeing as the gaelscoil is private then there isn't really anything you can do about that. Even if you make all schools Irish speaking gaelscoils will still advertise their lower class sizes. Kind of like a mini Irish Eton.

I am not sure that gaelscoileanna are private .. maybe some of them are.
I do not think the Irish state should fund any school that limits its enrolment in any way (financial, religous or gender)

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Bringing down class sizes costs money, as I explained in my last post this money will have to be diverted from other areas.

The gaelscoileanna have smaller class sizes and this additional cost is coming from the overall Dept. of Education budget.
Currently, the pool of existing resources is being shared unevenly.
Having a single language system will stop this inequity.

And have the added effect of making the "Teaching through Irish" and the "Gealteacht" supplementary payments to teachers redundant. Giving the state additional funding to put into our school system .. or pay European Bankers depending on how fast we can get the plan up and running

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed, but it will affect the number of people willing to take up a modern European language.

I really dont think so.

We are simply moving English to the place of Irish and vice versa. All other course selections would stay the same.

Nearly all our European neighbours, have english on thier sylabbus as a compulsory subject and also at least one other European language.

deise go deo

Why not just take the much simpler option and demand parents of children attending gaelscoils pay for their own damn sylabbus?

So they should pay for Irish medium education Themselves, And be taxed to support English medium Education too? And this is fair in your mind?

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Including those that do not wish to speak Irish?

In English Middle schools Irish is a compulsory subject.

In gaelscoileanna English is a compulsory subject.

If an individual chooses not to speak either language that is the individuals choice.

braftery

deise go deo wrote: »

So they should pay for Irish medium education Themselves, And be taxed to support English medium Education too? And this is fair in your mind?

I think the state should use it resources equally and has we have a dual language system the burdan falls to the state to pay for both.

But teachers that teach in Irish being paid more that those that teach in English.

Is this fair in your mind ?

deise go deo

braftery wrote: »

I think the state should use it resources equally and has we have a dual language system the burdan falls to the state to pay for both.

But teachers that teach in Irish being paid more that those that teach in English.

Is this fair in your mind ?

No, but there is a difference between arguing that teachers should be pais the same and arguing like Iwasfrozen and suggesting that the parents who choose to send their kids to gaelscoils somehow deserve to pay for their kids education twice.

braftery

deise go deo wrote: »

No, but there is a difference between arguing that teachers should be pais the same and arguing like Iwasfrozen and suggesting that the parents who choose to send their kids to gaelscoils somehow deserve to pay for their kids education twice.

Agreed.

Provided the school has an open admission policy and is without fees it should be considered a state school with the tax payer burdening the cost.

I think it is then upto the individual schools board of management (ie the parents) to decide what language (English or Irish) the school uses to teach the cirriculum.

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

I would be agreeable to making all our primary schools teach all subjects through any of the languages you mentioned provided that ALL schools that are state funded worked using a single language.

Unfortunately if we did that, we would still have all the gaelscoileanna exerting their right to continue teaching their students in our national language. Meaning the problem of dual language sylabbus requirements would continue.

So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.

I think you are reading what you want to see from it.
There is no such constitutional right. If there was it would equally apply to Irish and the Gaelscoil movement would be far ahead of where it is now.

That artical deals with the states use of Irish, In fact that article would allow for Irish only education. The law allows the state to operate Exclucive use of either language.


To answer your question I would imagine they would have to be allowed to set up English medium schools off their own back in the same way gaelscoileanna are now.

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So what happens when when all state funded primary schools are made Irish speaking and parents begin to demand their kids be taught in english medium schools as per their constitutional right?

Basically you will have the same situation you have now only in reverse. A much better solution would be to remove all state funding from Gaelscoils under the third paragraph of Article 8 in the constitution.

I am advocating the idea of a single language school system.
That system could be in English or Irish, or perhaps German if enough people liked the idea !

I am interested in having a fair, well funded and equitable school system, that gives equal chances to all students and assists us to build an inclusive and coherent society into the future. The current Dual language system that is growing in Ireland creates inequities in the system.

deise go deo

braftery wrote: »

The current Dual language system that is growing in Ireland creates inequities in the system.

What inequities?

LordSutch

So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.

braftery

deise go deo wrote: »

What inequities?

All teachers in galscoileanna are paid a higher salary than their counter parts in English Medium Schools

According to the Gaelscoileanna Stats in 2009 that was 2129 full time teachers all receiving at miniumum the additional "Teaching through Irish" supplementary payment of €1,583 per year.

Thats a net loss to the overall Dept of Education budget of €3,370,207 per year.

Gaelscoileanna often exist in the same catchment area tas an English Medium school which his capable of handling the students from the gaelscoileanna as part of its pupils, thus the additonal costs relating to salary, supplements, ground rent, building costs, insurances for the gaelscoileanna all come out of the overall Deparment of Education budget.

The savings that can be made by having a single language school system would amount to tens if not hundreds of millions and this could be used to better educate all our children.

cyclopath2001

braftery wrote: »

All teachers in galscoileanna are paid a higher salary than their counter parts in English Medium Schools

This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.

I dont know the reasons why, I am only aware of the cost to the overall dept of Education budget.

I dont think any of our schools, gaelscoileanna or English Middle, are struggling to find teaching staff.

Sponge Bob

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This suggests that there is a difficulty in sourcing teachers with sufficient commitment to teach through Irish at the same pay rate as their English-medium peers.

It proves that the ability of teachers, in general, to teach Irish which is a core curriculum subject.... is highly variable to put it kindly.

Most newly qualified primary teachers are substantially illiterate in spoken Irish. They could not order a burger through Irish. And yet they sign up to teach a national curriculum in its entirety...not a la carte.

I know of a secondary school in east Galway that has to do Irish language immersion in 1st year because they are getting students, effectively with no Irish, coming out of primary school. They have a lot of primary schools in their catchment and have noticed this problem coming from the MAJORITY.

It is unacceptable that these teachers in english speaking areas are taking money for 'teaching' a curriculum and ignoring substantial portions of it.

Were the allowance for teaching through Irish removed I would furthermore dock these primary teachers who refuse to teach a core currciulum subject in their english speaking schools by precisely the same amount for gross dereliction of duty and for a serious and ongoing breach of contract.

If Irish is around 1/7th of the curriculum then dock these primary school teachers 1/7th of their annual salary and allowances until they display clearly that they are fulfilling their contract.

braftery

LordSutch wrote: »

So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.

Perhaps the same tourist on another day hops on a plane to galway and takes a taxi out to spiddal to look at the coast. While there he enjoys some lunch in a local cafe. then takes a bus into the city and finally back to the airport.

What would his perspective on the status of Irish be then ?

I guess the impression all depends on where the person is standing

feicim

LordSutch wrote: »

So lets imagine for a moment (from a visitors perspective) how the status of Irish is perceived, he gets off the plane in Dublin airport 'from Brussels' & hops on 747 bus bound for Atha Cliath (confusingly named for a start), he then spends a few hours in Dublin City Centre shopping & walking the streets, he then buys a Dart ticket & heads for Dun Laoghaire, spends an hour or two there, he then takes a bus back to the City Centre & another back to the airport, but would he encounter any Irish at all ??? what would his impression be?

From his perspective the status of Irish might be minimal, and probably even non existent.

If you travel to biarritz in france, there are signs up in basque. Its no more confusing than the french signs to be honest. lets face it all signs are confusing when you are on holiday...

Personally I found it interesting and intriguing that there was something else going on. That some spark of a language still existed against the odds despite strong pressures over the years to kill it off.

cyclopath2001

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It proves that the ability of teachers, in general, to teach Irish which is a core curriculum subject.... is highly variable to put it kindly.

So they get paid extra to teach children who wish to speak Irish and where their parents might already be native speakers?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I know of a secondary school in east Galway that has to do Irish language immersion in 1st year because they are getting students, effectively with no Irish, coming out of primary school. They have a lot of primary schools in their catchment and have noticed this problem coming from the MAJORITY.

It must be a difficicult task to teach children to speak a langauge against their will.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If Irish is around 1/7th of the curriculum then dock these primary school teachers 1/7th of their annual salary and allowances until they display clearly that they are fulfilling their contract.

Maybe we should get the Irish Language Enforcement agency on to it?

braftery wrote:

Perhaps the same tourist on another day hops on a plane to galway and takes a taxi out to spiddal to look at the coast.

Would that be on a subsidised airline?

Dannyboy83

Deise,

What benefit will arise from forcing a language into someone who resists?

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Deise,

What benefit will arise from forcing a language into someone who resists?

Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.

Have you met many children that have decided at five to point blank refuse to learn a subject based on the fact that they dont see themselves geting a job out of it in 15 years time.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Show me something that suggests there is a significant proportion of the population who are not open to Learning Irish.

Lack of broad popular support of Irish-language media? Massive number of people who do not use Irish in their daily lives?

The average Irish person is as open to learning Irish as they are to learning Mandarin or Hungarian.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Lack of broad popular support of Irish-language media? Massive number of people who do not use Irish in their daily lives?

For both of these things you need to already know Irish right?
So how is that relevant in indicating people are not Open to Learning Irish?

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The average Irish person is as open to learning Irish as they are to learning Mandarin or Hungarian.

I understand why you say this, but I dont think you could find anybody that would say no to being fluent in ANY other language if it was gifted to them.

The ability of young children (4-7) to learn language is incredible. They dont see it as a subject, they dont see learning as a limited thing, that time learning one subject means that cant learn another.

Immersion in any language will give any child the ability to speak and think in this language within months and near fluency in not much longer. I know this from personal experience.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

For both of these things you need to already know Irish right?

Or be trying to improve your standard of comprehension.

deise go deo wrote: »

So how is that relevant in indicating people are not Open to Learning Irish?

You're clutching at straws- learn from history:

80 years have passed, billions spent, millions obliged to learn Irish, Irish-speaking jobs-for-the-boys invented, subsidies made, bonus marks given, quangos set up, grants made and the result: Irish is not being spoken by the majority, and native speakers are adopting English as their daily language.

You've have decades to 'get it right', how much longer do we have to put up with your wasteful nonsense before you accept that the majority do not wish to speak Irish and will make no effort to learn it, no matter how persuasive and well-paid your language enforcers might be?

Sponge Bob

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You've have decades to 'get it right', how much longer do we have to put up with your wasteful nonsense before you accept that the majority do not wish to speak Irish and will make no effort to learn it, no matter how persuasive and well-paid your language enforcers might be?

Get over it diddums. How did you do in French at school?, peut on discuter/ecrire avoir/exprimer un avis , puis comment coutait ca en effet?

The wilful non teaching of part of the core curriculum by up to 10,000 teachers in ENGLISH medium schools is simple breach of contract.

Dock these slobs their 1/7th of their average €50k of pay for their non compliance ...and their pension pro rata ...and you make real savings as distinct from taking €1500 off 1,000 workers in Gaelscoileanna.

There is a national schools inspectorate to supervise these quality issues, so use it.

They could easily do a school a day and save the state a fortune.