The Status Of Irish.

Sponge Bob

I already told you, were you to carefully read back my recent posts.

Most Irish people are not inherently employable in an Internationally Traded Service context because of some mystical talent pool in the general usage of the english language..much less any other.

Dannyboy83

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is not what you implied, you implied that we got those jobs where speaking European languages are a requisite/prerequisite.

"Google, Facebook and Paypal" often hire foreigners, in preference to the denizens of Pearse Street and Blanchardstown, or indeed Monkstown or Malahide ...for jobs where one must speak and otherwise communicate in english.

Have you ever asked yourself why ???

The key word is often.
How often are Irish people hired by foreign firms to speak Irish?
Almost never, except to fill an artificially created job, such as EU translator, which is merely an expense and of no consequence to anyone.

There is no demand for Irish outside Ireland.
The demand inside Ireland is small and finite - & it's oversupplied already anyway. The market is saturated.
Simply no opportunities there.
Ergo, compulsory Irish = Not justifiable.

MysticalRain

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I already told you, were you to carefully read back my recent posts.

Most Irish people are not inherently employable in an Internationally Traded Service context because of some mystical talent pool in the general usage of the english language..much less any other.

That's laughable. I've worked in call centres myself alongside plenty of well educated Irish college graduates who had no trouble speaking English.

Sponge Bob

Were they genuinely "well educated" as you say then they would not have ended up in a call centre would they??

MysticalRain

Call centres are often the first step on the ladder for a career in the IT industry (especially in a downturn). Plenty of high calibre people start out in call centre jobs before moving on to bigger and better things.

I can't help but remark that your own standard of written English in your posts isn't exactly perfect.

Sponge Bob

How are your European Languages dearie?

LordSutch

I wonder how many of us posters would contribute to this thread if it was being repeated in the Irish language forum? (obviously I woulnd't be there for a start), and I guess neither would several other contributors, then you have the cupla focal brigade, who would leave the odd sentence here & there, still not able to argue in any meaningful way, which would leave how many hard core Irish scribes? I wonder? and like the 'Gaelic button' on ATM machines, I suspect there wouldn't be many takers.

MysticalRain

Sponge Bob wrote: »

How are your European Languages dearie?

They would obviously be much better if I had spent more time being taught European languages in school as opposed to dead ones that I will never use.

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Under compulsory Irish as you advocate - there are 55,000 pupils sitting the leaving cert per year.

Are there 55,000 Irish speaking jobs available per year in Ireland or worldwide?
If Yes, provide evidence.
If No, you cannot justify compulsory Irish.

What? Are there 55'000 Maths jobs? I don't think so. Dose that mean compulsory Maths is not justified?


If you think the only function of an Education System is to train people for jobs then you and I fundamentally disagree on the purpose of education. Back in the 19th century Education was little more than job training, Not so in the modern world.

Sponge Bob

MysticalRain wrote: »

They would obviously be much better if I had spent more time being taught European languages in school as opposed to dead ones that I will never use.

I'll ping yet another of our monoglots onto the ignore list so, ta ta

MysticalRain

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I'll ping yet another of our monoglots onto the ignore list so, ta ta

Such childishness.

Dannyboy83

deise go deo wrote: »

What? Are there 55'000 Maths jobs? I don't think so. Dose that mean compulsory Maths is not justified?

Yes there are, within Ireland - not to mind worldwide.

If you think the only function of an Education System is to train people for jobs then you and I fundamentally disagree on the purpose of education. Back in the 19th century Education was little more than job training, Not so in the modern world.

If 19th century pupils could get jobs from their education, but 21st century pupils cannot - we are doing something very wrong indeed.

Any headmaster who tells parents his school will not be able to help pupils acquire jobs won't need to worry about overcrowding.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

What? Are there 55'000 Maths jobs? I don't think so. Dose that mean compulsory Maths is not justified?....If you think the only function of an Education System is to train people for jobs then you and I fundamentally disagree on the purpose of education. Back in the 19th century Education was little more than job training, Not so in the modern world.

We're discussing Compulsory Irish, you started the thread. It's nota actually clear to me if you just wanted to publicises CnaG's dictat on this or if you genuinely wanted to explore what is best for Irish pupils.

So, if not to help people become more employable, why make Irish compulsory?

We can accept that language teaching of all non-native langauges (Irish included) is poor. One way of improving this is to improve the curriculum and devote more time and quality teaching to the problem. It is certainly desirable that pupils speak another major world language in addition to English.

Your choice is to improve how Irish is taught and to make learning Irish compulsory. Can you justify this decision compared to improving teaching, say German, French or Spanish and making a choice of one of them compulsory?

Pupils deserve choice and the time wasted teaching Irish to people who do not wish to learn it could be better spent on teaching languages they do wish to speak.

Cú Giobach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Irish: 69,000 people speak it fluently. (Fluent Polish speakers are more numerous in Ireland)

You mentioned this a couple of times, that is the number of native speakers. The number of fluent speakers is much much higher.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You mentioned this a couple of times, that is the number of native speakers. The number of fluent speakers is much much higher.

These numbers are self-reported and not measured independently or reliably. The Irish Language lobby spins them up to help get more grants and to justify subsidised jobs.

What matters is the number who use Irish as an integral part of their daily life. This, I beleive will be found be hugely smaller than the total number of children subjected to compulsory Irish teaching over the past 80 years. - A very poor return for money and effort.

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

These numbers are self-reported and not measured independently or reliably. The Irish Language lobby spins them up to help get more grants and to justify subsidised jobs.

What matters is the number who use Irish as an integral part of their daily life. This, I beleive will be found be hugely smaller than the total number of children subjected to compulsory Irish teaching over the past 80 years. - A very poor return for money and effort.

What I stated is factually correct.
I am not discussing usage, I commented on fluency.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

What I stated is factually correct.
I am not discussing usage, I commented on fluency.

How is this fluency measured? Point to facts (not 'studies' commisioned by the Irish Language Lobby).

And, more importantly to the topic under discussion, can this fluency be attributed to 80 years of forced compulsory Irish language education of all English-speaking children in Ireland?

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How is this fluency measured? Point to facts (not 'studies' commisioned by the Irish Language Lobby).

And, more importantly to the topic under discussion, can this fluency be attributed to 80 years of forced compulsory Irish language education of all English-speaking children in Ireland?

Unless there are no fluent speakers of Irish from outside the Gaeltacht regions then my statement is true.
If this concept is beyond you and if you want to argue against such common sense then I am not the person who will entertain you. Bye.

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Unless there are no fluent speakers of Irish from outside the Gaeltacht regions then my statement is true.
If this concept is beyond you and if you want to argue against such common sense then I am not the person who will entertain you. Bye.

OK, so some native English-speakers are fluent in Irish. I have no doubt that this is true. What constitutes fluency and how many would pass a test of fluency is completely unstated.

How many million children were subjected to compulsory Irish lessons in the past 80 years in order to achieve the fluency that you cliam exists but cannot measure in quality or quantity?

Dannyboy83

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Unless there are no fluent speakers of Irish from outside the Gaeltacht regions then my statement is true.
If this concept is beyond you and if you want to argue against such common sense then I am not the person who will entertain you. Bye.

Based on the 2002 CSO census figures, in all Gaeltachtaí, 72.6% are fluent in Irish (62,157 people).
This leave room for another 7000 people outside Gaeltactaí (education).

Please provide evidence for the number of fluent speakers if you disagree.

Bear in mind that 55,000 people sit the leaving cert per year.
This means the language should be growing at an exponential rate.
It's not.
Therefore, compulsory Irish cannot be justified any longer as it clearly doesn't work.
And we all know the definition of insanity (repeating same course of action, expecting different outcome)

Cú Giobach

2001 wrote: »

OK, so some native English-speakers are fluent in Irish. I have no doubt that this is true. What constitutes fluency and how many would pass a test of fluency is completely unstated.

How many million children were subjected to compulsory Irish lessons in the past 80 years in order to achieve the fluency that you cliam exists but cannot measure in quality or quantity?

cyclopath don't you get it, I'm not going to get in any more discussions with you, we have been over all this already ad nauseum.

The fact that you are trying to pick an argument over a very simple common sense statement and demanding proof and numbers is really a bit sad.

Cú Giobach

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Based on the 2002 CSO census figures, in all Gaeltachtaí, 72.6% are fluent in Irish (62,157 people).
This leave room for another 7000 people outside Gaeltactaí (education).
Please provide evidence for the number of fluent speakers if you disagree.

Lets take this step by step.
Where do you get the figure of 69,000 fluent speakers from.
(I'll be looking for links while you are replying).

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

The fact that you are trying to pick an argument over a very simple common sense statement and demanding proof and numbers is really a bit sad.

Ah, yes, never let facts get in the way of a comforting delusion.

Just 7,000 fluent non-native speakers of Irish after millions of English-speaking kids have been forcibly taught Irish for decades, don't you care about this? Does not seem wrong to you?

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Ah, yes, never let facts get in the way of a comforting delusion.

Just 7,000 fluent non-native speakers of Irish after millions of English-speaking kids have been forcibly taught Irish for decades, don't you care about this? Does not seem wrong to you?

Now where do you get this figure from. :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Now where do you get this figure from. :rolleyes:

The longer the thread goes on the more and more I does be worried about the teaching of Maths and Logic in this country..as well as English and French of course :cool:

cyclopath2001

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Now where do you get this figure from. :rolleyes:

See DannyBoy83's post. This would be the number of fluent Irish speakers less the number of native speakers.

Based on these numbers or even others more favourable to your cause, I cannot see any justification of the compulsory teaching of Irish to millions of English-speaking children. Can you?

cyclopath2001

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The longer the thread goes on the more and more

So what are your views on the compulsory teaching of Irish to millions of English-speaking Children?

Cú Giobach

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

See 's post. This would be the number of fluent Irish speakers less the number of native speakers.

Based on these numbers or even others more favourable to your cause, I cannot see any justification of the compulsory teaching of Irish to millions of English-speaking children. Can you?

DannyBoy83 seems to have picked the figure of 69,000 out of thin air, and you are using it as proof. :rolleyes:


There are currently 8,158 pupils in all Irish medium secondary schools outside the Gaeltacht areas. (and as an aside 31,304 primary pupils).
Just looking at these figures claiming only 7,000 fluent speakers is well off the mark. (And I am not even claiming all 31,300 primary kids are fluent).

The question remains where does this figure of 69,000 come from??

deise go deo

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Therefore, compulsory Irish cannot be justified any longer as it clearly doesn't work.
And we all know the definition of insanity (repeating same course of action, expecting different outcome)

Dannyboy, Do you know the difference between Corrolation and causation?

There may be a corrolation between Irish in schools failing to deliver and it being compulsory, but that dosent imply causation.

You want to say Irish being Compulsory is the root of the proplem then prove there is a causational link.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?

deise go deo wrote: »

You want to say Irish being Compulsory is the root of the proplem then prove there is a causational link.

This thread, which you started, is not about why people choose not to speak Irish or if the teaching is any good. It's about justifying compulsory Irish lessons for Engliah speakers, so, let's look at the question more directly:

What are the benefits of compulsory teaching of Irish to millions of children?