The Status Of Irish.

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Since English is the primary language of most Irish children and is the language they will use in later life, it make sense and is more efficient to educate them through that language.

Are you worried that educating our children in Irish will mean that they will no longer be able to speak English ?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So we could save a lot of money by teaching children in their native language: English.

We can save this money provided all children are taught in one language, regardless of what it is.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

English is the language of the majority of the population, it makes no economic or practical sense to ignore this fact.

I am not ignoring this fact.

Teaching through Irish does not mean that English would no longer be a subject. I would imagine like most other European countries, English would probably be a compulsory subject like Irish is now.

My interest is in a better education system that is equal for all.

At the risk of repeating myself;

To create separate schools for separate languages creates an "Us and Them" society.

Irish and Gaelscoileanna are not going away, we need to embrace them, integrate them, bring them into the mainstream and to all of society.

braftery

Can anybody tell me currently, the number of students that are finishing primary school from the Gaelscoileanna system each year ?

And if possible the expected growth rate of those numbers in years to come ?

LordSutch

braftery wrote: »

Irish and Gaelscoileanna are not going away, we need to embrace them, integrate them, bring them into the mainstream and to all of society.

Err, NO.

cyclopath2001

braftery wrote: »

Are you worried that educating our children in Irish will mean that they will no longer be able to speak English ?

No, the waste of time and money involved in teaching people a langauge they do not wish to speak.

braftery wrote: »

We can save this money provided all children are taught in one language, regardless of what it is.

So, let's teach children in their first language.

braftery wrote: »

To create separate schools for separate languages creates an "Us and Them" society.

True, but which group is choosing to opt-out of mainstream society?

braftery wrote: »

Irish and Gaelscoileanna are not going away, we need to embrace them, integrate them, bring them into the mainstream and to all of society.

Why?

The core issue is the CNaG goal of making Irish the common language of Ireland and the unscrupolous methods they want to apply to achieve this.

DJP

deise go deo wrote: »

Since then they have scraped that policy and are currently formulating a new one, It is supposidly going to be based on the Sweedish model. Their position on Irish has yet to be announced.

I don't think you are correct here.

I heard that the Department does not make English and Maths compulsory. The schools do as they are required NUI subjects. So if Irish was made optional by the Department I think it would still stay compulsory in most schools. I could be wrong. Somebody on this thread say that the NUI may be changing their entrance requirements.

I would be open to English, Irish and Maths being optional. Then if anyone dropped one or more of them and needed them after the Leaving they could go back to school and do them again.

I wanted to do Biology for the Leaving Cert but I had to choose between that and History and I chose History. I did not want to do Economics but I had to choose between that and Chemistry and Physics. Damn regrets!!!!!!

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

Simplicity is teaching all subjects through a single language.
What that language is really is immaterial.
It could be English, Irish, French, German or Spanish.
The net result in education will be the same.
The net benefit is that our children will all speak Irish as a by-product of the system.

The same arguement can be made for any language.

braftery wrote: »

We are Irish.
Irish is our national language.
I can never see a time when all teaching in Irish schools will be in English and Irish will not exist on the cirriculum.
I do not agree with a school system that is divisive and forces parents to choose in what language their child will be taught.
The language in which our children is taught will not effect the quality of their education, but the additional drain on resources that preparing all sylabbus in two languages will.
Our government currently pay a premium to Teachers that teach in Irish, €1583 per teacher, and €3063 per teacher in a Gaelteacht. A single language system would mean all teachers would once again be the same.

Irish is not our national language. It is some people's national language. Don't speak for everyone.

Teaching all children through Irish is divisive because some parents will inevitably refuse to have their children taught through Irish.

At the moment we don't pay to replicate the sylabbi, it is only taught through english.

Or we could just scrap the premium Irish speaking teachers get.

braftery wrote: »

For the above reasons and others, I want to see a single language education system and since it will never be possible to do this in English, lets do it in Irish.

Why can't we do it in english?

gimme5minutes

braftery wrote: »

For the above reasons and others, I want to see a single language education system and since it will never be possible to do this in English, lets do it in Irish.

Look, the last thing this country needs at the present time is to be dragged back into the dark ages by forcing a redundant language on a population that have no interest in speaking it. Having English as our first language is a major bonus for Ireland.

The vast majority of Irish people have zero interest in speaking Irish. All my friends, family, and extended family went through 12-13 years of (forced) learning it in school and none of them could even hold a basic conversation in Irish now. None of my workmates in my office can speak it or have an interest in speaking it. Someone posted stats earlier that more students than ever are getting exemptions from studying Irish.

It's time to wake up and realise that the general public don't want to return to speaking a language that went out of widespread use over a hundred years ago. There will always be a % of the population that will be interested in the language and they can keep it on and keep it alive but it is a major waste of time and money forcing it down the throats of hundreds of thousands of students who have no interest in it and could spend their time learning something useful.

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The same arguement can be made for any language.

Yes, because it is true of any language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish is not our national language. It is some people's national language. Don't speak for everyone.

As an Irish citizen, like it or not, it is your national language too.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Teaching all children through Irish is divisive because some parents will inevitably refuse to have their children taught through Irish.

That is sad but true.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

At the moment we don't pay to replicate the sylabbi, it is only taught through english.

At the moment your taxes pay for duplication of all sylabbi into two languages. Unless of course the parents of children in the Gaelscoileanna are paying for the Irish sylabbi out of their own pocket.

I would further suggest that the average class size in the Gaelscoileanna programme be compared to the average class size of the English Medium School programme.

Finally, as every teacher in any Gaelscoileanna is automatically being paid a higher salary the "cost per child", of these children is higher than the English Medium school.

All Tax payers foot the bill for the above.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Or we could just scrap the premium Irish speaking teachers get.

Find me the politician that will do that and I will vote for him.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why can't we do it in english?

I am advocating a single language school system.
I am advocating this to create equality and effeciency in the system.
Personally I dont care what language it is in, but I think it will not be possible to ever do it in English.
Further to this I can see a long term benefit to Ireland as a Soverign state and to our national identity if we do it in Irish.

On second thoughts, perhaps we would be better to do it in German or French as we have just sold our children into European slavery to pay for our public spending for the next four years

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

As an Irish citizen, like it or not, it is your national language too.

No it isn't.

braftery wrote: »

That is sad but true.

Then how will you enforce this new law you propose?

braftery wrote: »

At the moment your taxes pay for duplication of all sylabbi into two languages. Unless of course the parents of children in the Gaelscoileanna are paying for the Irish sylabbi out of their own pocket.

Aren't they?

braftery wrote: »

I would further suggest that the average class size in the Gaelscoileanna programme be compared to the average class size of the English Medium School programme.

Class size has nothing to do with the language the child is being taught in.

braftery wrote: »

Finally, as every teacher in any Gaelscoileanna is automatically being paid a higher salary the "cost per child", of these children is higher than the English Medium school.

Then irish speaking teachers shouldn't get bonuses for teaching in Irish.

braftery wrote: »

I am advocating a single language school system.
I am advocating this to create equality and effeciency in the system.
Personally I dont care what language it is in, but I think it will not be possible to ever do it in English.
Further to this I can see a long term benefit to Ireland as a Soverign state and to our national identity if we do it in Irish.

Why isn't it possible to do it in english? The vast majority of primary schools already do that.

As for soverignty, we don't speak Irish in Ireland yet we remain a soverign state.

braftery wrote: »

On second thoughts, perhaps we would be better to do it in German or French as we have just sold our children into European slavery to pay for our public spending for the next four years

Yes heaven forbid our children learn a useful language. :rolleyes:

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it isn't.

From Wikipedia, so it must be true

Irish

It enjoys constitutional status as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland.

From the Constitution of Ireland 1937

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

ressem

deise go deo wrote: »

There is nothing of practical benefit, applicable to every day life learned in English in the final two years of school.

...
I don't see English as useful in its self for LC, There is nothing practical about it, the one possible practical thing it could do, Improve literacy rates, it dosent do.(This is true)

The aims of the English Syllabus at this level are

The aims of this syllabus are to develop in students:
3.1 A mature and critical literacy to prepare them for the responsibilities and challenges of adult life in all contexts;
3.2 A respect and appreciation for language used accurately and appropriately and a competence in a wide range of language skills both oral and written.
3.3 An awareness of the value of literature in its diverse forms for enriching their perceptions, for enhancing their sense of cultural identity, and for creating experiences of aesthetic pleasure;

It's almost a generation since I attended a class where English was being taught, and the course has been changed since with formalised aspirational goals, but I've formed the opinion that these aims are not being met; the assessments are just as vunerable to memorisation as they were when I was taught. Question A expects Answer B. The difference between grades is in writing answer B coherently.
In addition I don't believe that there is any effort made in teaching students to speak more effectively unless the student is having huge difficulties.

If I'm correct then the English course has the same problems as the Irish course, masked by the students external immersion to English.

Like youself, I'm not a pessimist. I believe that with an overhaul in primary teaching, students could get a lot closer to being to listen to and speak basic Irish.
But this applies everywhere in the educational system. In primary school kids aren't giving basic instruction on improving themselves. In PE or music, a trained coach could feasibly improve many a kids life to a greater degree with an hour improving their breathing technique than the entire school lifetime of Irish tuition.

And my opinion would be that it's due to the degree to which primary school teachers must be generalists. Enough knowledge to be dangerous in many topics. And why the idea of teaching everything through irish is just scary under the current setup. One poorly supervised teacher with poor fluency and a class is pushed a year behind their peers across all subjects, and without the knowledge or grinds, their parents would be left feeling powerless to help, a situation which we see disadvantaging some children even in the English language.

So we'll take Irish. If primary school pupils had half a day per fortnight with a fluent specialised irish teacher with the teacher acting as TA for the class, it would act as continous assessment and upskilling for the primary teacher, and provide a facility to provide concentrated speaking and listening tuition which doesn't let the students who are falling behind mumble an attempted response and hide behind their desk.
With the current deficit in teaching places it would appear to be a great time to try it out, measure the relative progress and compare cost vs benefit.

And with cost comes cutbacks. Might cutting back on compulsary irish for leaving cert students balance itself out with 5 years of concentrated tuition and fixing gaps at the point when it brings about most improvement?

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

From Wikipedia, so it must be true

Irish

It enjoys constitutional status as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland.

From the Constitution of Ireland 1937

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

1. First off I'm aware of the constitutional claim that Irish is one of the national languages of the country.
2. While that may be the constitutional position I am in no obligation to regard the Irish language as my national language.
3. I am one of I'm sure countless people who do not want their children to be educated through Irish.
4. you left out this part "Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."
5. I don't take kindly to smug people telling me Irish is my national language. I had enough of it in school thank you very much.

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then how will you enforce this new law you propose?

I am not proposing any new law, I am trying to widen the debate to consider other possibilities because this is about alot more than the language our children or taught in

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Aren't they?

No, you are.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Class size has nothing to do with the language the child is being taught in.

Class size has everything to do with the quality of education a child receives.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then irish speaking teachers shouldn't get bonuses for teaching in Irish.

At least on this point we seem to agree

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why isn't it possible to do it in english? The vast majority of primary schools already do that.

It is not possible to deny any citizen of a country the right to eduction in the National Language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for soverignty, we don't speak Irish in Ireland yet we remain a soverign state.

I like to think so anyway

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes heaven forbid our children learn a useful language. :rolleyes:

There are already many interesting, beautiful and useful languages available on in the current school cirriculum.

DJP

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. I don't take kindly to smug people telling me Irish is my national language. I had enough of it in school thank you very much.

Well it is. And English is one of your national languages. Do you have a problem with that crank?

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

I am not proposing any new law, I am trying to widen the debate to consider other possibilities because this is about alot more than the language our children or taught in

Is it? Isn't teaching children through Irish only to the benifite of the Irish language, it brings no benifit to the children. Any benifites plus additional benifites could be achieved through teaching them in any language.

braftery wrote: »

No, you are.

The the parents of children attending Gaelscoils should pay for it.

braftery wrote: »

Class size has everything to do with the quality of education a child receives.

There are two things I'd like to point out here.

1. First off the language a child is taught in has nothing to do with the class size.
2. Are smaller class sizes really better? Afterall smaller class sizes means more money is paid in teachers wages, which means there is less money for other things that can help children learn i.e textbooks, games, p.e equipment etc.

braftery wrote: »

At least on this point we seem to agree

At last!

braftery wrote: »

It is not possible to deny any citizen of a country the right to eduction in the National Language.

Nodies denying them an education in Irish as things are.

braftery wrote: »

There are already many interesting, beautiful and useful languages available on in the current school cirriculum.

We agree on this also, so why teach primary school through Irish?

Darren J. Prior wrote:

Well it is. And English is one of your national languages. Do you have a problem with that crank?

You're right, it's one of our national lanuages. So why must we put up with smug gaelgeoirs telling us we must support their gravy train for "our national language".

braftery

1. First off I'm aware of the constitutional claim that Irish is one of the national languages of the country.
2. While that may be the constitutional position I am in no obligation to regard the Irish language as my national language.
3. I am one of I'm sure countless people who do not want their children to be educated through Irish.
4. you left out this part "Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof."
5. I don't take kindly to smug people telling me Irish is my national language. I had enough of it in school thank you very much.

OK

braftery

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is it? Isn't teaching children through Irish only to the benifite of the Irish language, it brings no benifit to the children. Any benifites plus additional benifites could be achieved through teaching them in any language.

No teaching a child in any language that is not the language they use in everyday life, will give the child that language as a second fluent language. This is always a benefit to the child over the child that has only one language, even if it is Irish.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The the parents of children attending Gaelscoils should pay for it.

But they don't, we all do.
That is why I am advocating a single language school system.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are two things I'd like to point out here.

1. First off the language a child is taught in has nothing to do with the class size.
2. Are smaller class sizes really better? Afterall smaller class sizes means more money is paid in teachers wages, which means there is less money for other things that can help children learn i.e textbooks, games, p.e equipment etc.

1. Yes, it does, if your child attends a Gaelscoileanna and is educated in Irish, they are very likely to have a smaller class size then if they attend the local English Medium School.

2. Smaller class sizes, cost the tax payer more but are definitely better for the education of the child. That is why I would like to see all students taught in a single language system and to bring down the class size for all students and not just those taught in Irish.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

At last!

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nodies denying them an education in Irish as things are.

Our constitution will not allow us to deny anyone the right to education in the National Language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We agree on this also, so why teach primary school through Irish?

The language we teach our children in will not affect the number of languages we teach in our schools.

DJP

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So why must we put up with smug gaelgeoirs telling us we must support their gravy train for "our national language".

You shouldn't be bothered really. They are harmless. FG and LP are going to shake up with way Irish is promoted.

You are on the other extreme though in not wanting any Irish taught in school. That is why I called you a crank.

cyclopath2001

braftery wrote: »

2. Smaller class sizes, cost the tax payer more but are definitely better for the education of the child. That is why I would like to see all students taught in a single language system and to bring down the class size for all students and not just those taught in Irish.

There is a major flaw in your logic and that is your assumption that the majority population will consent to the imposition of Irish as the sole medium of primary and secondary education.

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There is a major flaw in your logic and that is your assumption that the majority population will consent to the imposition of Irish as the sole medium of primary and secondary education.

I am not assuming anything, I am asking everybody to consider it and to outline logical reasons why it is a bad idea.

DJP

First we would need a strong gaelscoileanna movement. We haven't got one. There are campaigns for 8 new primary level gaelscoileanna and eight new second level (crucially) and there is an interest in six other areas for primary level gaelscoileanna. We need the eight second level gaelscoileanna in particular. It would be a HUGE HUGE boost if we got these schools in the shorter-term.

cyclopath2001

braftery wrote: »

I am not assuming anything, I am asking everybody to consider it and to outline logical reasons why it is a bad idea.

It's not a bad idea in principle, that is if you can convince over four million people to speak a different language. Indeed, what you propose is a real 'Cultural Revolution', perhaps we could call the go-live date as 'Year Zero?

braftery

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's not a bad idea in principle, that is if you can convince over four million people to speak a different language. Indeed, what you propose is a real 'Cultural Revolution', perhaps we could call the go-live date as 'Year Zero?

I will never be able to speak Irish, but that does not mean that I dont think it would be benefit that my children could speak it fluently.

As our children leave school, 10% of their peers will have the advantage of speaking two languages fluently. The same 10% will have been educated in schools with smaller class sizes and the possible advantages that gives them.
The additional cost on the system for these advantages is being borne by all of the tax payers and yet the advantage is accrued to only 10%.

A single language school system will accrue this benefit to all.

braftery

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

First we would need a strong gaelscoileanna movement. We haven't got one. There are campaigns for 8 new primary level gaelscoileanna and eight new second level (crucially) and there is an interest in six other areas for primary level gaelscoileanna. We need the eight second level gaelscoileanna in particular. It would be a HUGE HUGE boost if we got these schools in the shorter-term.

A single language school system negates the need for a gaelscoileanna movement entirely.

All schools will be gaelscoileanna. We can all support all our children.

Iwasfrozen

braftery wrote: »

No teaching a child in any language that is not the language they use in everyday life, will give the child that language as a second fluent language. This is always a benefit to the child over the child that has only one language, even if it is Irish.

So if we are in agreement that any second language is a benifite to a child and teaching that child a modern european language will give additional benifites then why is it in our advantage to make all primary schools irish speaking instead of French, German or Chinese speaking?

braftery wrote: »

But they don't, we all do.
That is why I am advocating a single language school system.

Why not just take the much simpler option and demand parents of children attending gaelscoils pay for their own damn sylabbus?

braftery wrote: »

1. Yes, it does, if your child attends a Gaelscoileanna and is educated in Irish, they are very likely to have a smaller class size then if they attend the local English Medium School.

2. Smaller class sizes, cost the tax payer more but are definitely better for the education of the child. That is why I would like to see all students taught in a single language system and to bring down the class size for all students and not just those taught in Irish.

Seeing as the gaelscoil is private then there isn't really anything you can do about that. Even if you make all schools Irish speaking gaelscoils will still advertise their lower class sizes. Kind of like a mini Irish Eton.

Bringing down class sizes costs money, as I explained in my last post this money will have to be diverted from other areas.

braftery wrote: »

Our constitution will not allow us to deny anyone the right to education in the National Language.

I don't want to deny people Irish education I want to give them a choice.

braftery wrote: »

The language we teach our children in will not affect the number of languages we teach in our schools.

Agreed, but it will affect the number of people willing to take up a modern European language.

Iwasfrozen

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

You shouldn't be bothered really. They are harmless. FG and LP are going to shake up with way Irish is promoted.

Yep, FG have promised when they come to power to make Irish optional. I think they have lately pulled back on this because they want to base it on the Swedish model (whatever that is, but if it's Scandanavian it must be good!).

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

You are on the other extreme though in not wanting any Irish taught in school. That is why I called you a crank.

I don't want Irish teaching banned in school, I want it made optional.

cyclopath2001

braftery wrote: »

All schools will be gaelscoileanna. We can all support all our children.

Including those that do not wish to speak Irish?

DJP

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yep, FG have promised when they come to power to make Irish optional. I think they have lately pulled back on this because they want to base it on the Swedish model (whatever that is, but if it's Scandanavian it must be good!).


I don't want Irish teaching banned in school, I want it made optional.

Does anyone have any links to this Swedish/Scandandavian model thing that FG are supposedly talking about?

And are you talking about after the Junior Cert in relation to Irish being optional or throughout the education system. If it is the latter then you are not even on the radar.

DJP

I knew that FG hadn't changed their policy. And you should know that Labour are in favour of making it optional now as well.

"During a two-hour debate on the first official language, conducted mainly in Irish, Fine Gael Gaeltacht spokesman Frank Feighan believed that 4 per cent of Irish speakers, or roughly 72,000 people, use the language daily outside the classroom. He welcomed the strategy but said we should look at the retention of Irish as a compulsory subject from primary to Leaving Certificate level. Fergus O’Dowd (FG, Louth) was more adamant. We must get rid of our compulsory Irish after the Junior Certificate. We must offer people choice after the Junior Certificate rather than having it compulsory. Students love the subjects they want to do, not the ones they have to do."

http://www.gaelport.com/sonrai-nuachta?NewsItemID=5264

Irish Times 19th November 10

Iwasfrozen

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

And are you talking about after the Junior Cert in relation to Irish being optional or throughout the education system. If it is the latter then you are not even on the radar.

I'd rather if it was optional in secondary school and mandatory in primary. Though at the moment I'd be happy with it optional after Junior cert. Every little helps.