Freemasons?

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Could you explain to us the symbolism presented in the following tracing board?

Absolutely. Damn good question too! There are quite a number of variations of tracing boards out there, this isn't exactly the one I'm familiar with, but I'll explain the stuff I recognise for sure.

The left and right pillars represent the left and right pillars of Solomon's temple, the middle one as far as I can tell is supposed to be God. The three balls above that are represenation of the world, heaven, and God. The wooden level tool is a symbol of morality to remind us that all men are created equal, the wooden plummet with plumb line is to remind us to be upright (Honest and truthful) with all men. The square and compass are under the ladder on the bible same as they would be in the lodge room, the Gavel (Hammer) and chisel in the background are to tell us that when we have thoughts about people, or in general, to hammer away the negative ones and end up with a morally sound result instead as all good people should. There's a 24 inch ruler in there too - you can see it folded up, it tells us that in a normal day we have 24 hours, and to make the most of it, we should use it to work, rest, and help out those in need when we can. There's a wooden square there too, which tells us that when we're leaving friends, or anyone we've met, that we should do so 'on the square' - or in other words, in a good mood, and that we've got on well with them in the time we had to meet them. The ladder is Jacob's ladder from the Bible, and it symbolises a journey that you start by learning about your chosen faith (Whatever it may be, Christianity, Buddhism, FSMism, etc) in the Bible of your faith, and then using the ladder which is on that book, you take a step towards heaven (Or enlightenment) each time you learn something new - in other words, always keep learning about everything, learn about maths, music, science, psychology, as much as you can, and you'll become a better person for it. The wooden board with the diagram on it is actually a tracing board. When lodges met in the 16/17/18th centuries, they usually did so in rented rooms in taverns, or in hotels - so they'd draw the symbols of the degree the meeting was being held in on the floor in chalk, or roll out a sheet like the one in the tracing board (Copying/Drawing it in chalk - hence tracing board), and then wipe it out later, or roll it back up. Think that's about it.

Most of what's on the board doesn't actually relate to the 1st degree, but to Masonry in general. It's like the first lesson on what it is to be a Mason. Pretty simple stuff really, enjoy life, get on with it, and the lessons of taking the evil out of life are taught using the symbols of a workman using his tools to take a rough piece of stone, and turn it into something beautiful.

squod wrote: »

As a matter of interest do you even accept that it's a cult?

Is that question is directed at me? Then no. Definitely not. My interpretation of a cult that members would be followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices first of all - Masonry doesn't have a system of either. It's open to every single type of religion in the world, and non religion too. All you need to do is believe in a supreme being, so if that's a grey man with a flowy beard, or an elephant, away with you. Cult also implies a level of control and mind subversion, which TBH, seems a tad OTT, don't you think? When was the last time there was a group of Masons committing suicide, or waiting for the spaceship to take them away?


Just a fraternity really, like minded people from all religions, all cultures, all countries coming together with something in common (Like any club, people with something in common coming together, cars, motorbikes, stamp collecting, hill walking), and socialising.

You've got to remember, this would have been one of the earliest forms of socialising waaaaay back when, and that's why it's popularity was off the chart a few centuries ago.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_objectid=16915241%26method=full%26siteid=50142%26page=4%26headline=evil-sex-beast-may-never-be-let-out-on-the-streets-again-name_page.html

I don't think you can be charged with slander if you're telling the truth.

You're not actually telling the truth though. You are slandering, and you should retract the accusation and apologise for calling Freemasons child molestors and paedophiles.

You've shown that 2 members were involved in Paedophilia. They may also have been a member of their local golf club, does that mean that their golf club is full of child rapists too? Stupid stupid logic on your part, and does your debating here no favours.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Actually, pablo_escobar posted and made it clear that he does not believe all Freemasons act this way, he said some do which is true. Then a poster decided to demand that pablo be banned for slander when no slander was committed. I just decided to post one case where Freemasons were indeed convicted of pedophilia. I'm sure I could find more if I searched more than 5 minutes.

Really!?
Your really gonna argue that point.you said he was telling the truth that freemasons operate a paedophile ring?

Look just admit you wanted to have a little dig,its fine.I honestly cant believe you would argue that he was right to generalise like that.

Now your not stupid and you will inevitably say no you are talking about the fact he said some were convicted paedophiles so ill ask you this question and it should clear up your position

Do you believe that freemasons operate as Paedophile rings?

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I just decided to post one case where Freemasons were indeed convicted of pedophilia. I'm sure I could find more if I searched more than 5 minutes.

Actually, you said 'I don't think you can be charged with slander if you're telling the truth'. If anything, you're actually saying that you think that all Masons are paedophiles.

Put it this way,you could tell us what you do for a living or a pasttime/hobbie and we'd probably be able to find a few cases of paedophilia by people who are also in that profession/pasttime/hobby.

This doesnt give us the right to label you and your profession as operating a paedophilia ring

squod wrote: »

They are. Whether you believe that or not doesn't change that fact.

And you can categorically prove it's a cult? You're so certain of this fact about an organisation you're not a member of?

BTW, there have been quite a few members on this thread already. I'm not the first member in case some of you haven't been reading posts.

squod wrote: »

Fits one of your criteria so far. Add to that playing dress up and using unique symbolism and it seems very likely don't you think?

Fits one of my criteria? Eh no it doesn't!! I have stated here, several times, that Masonry is about ALL religions. A cult imposes it's own religion and belief sysytem on people, Masonry brings them all together and says whatever you believe is okay with us, as long as you're a good person. Did you even read what I wrote?

Dress up symbolism? The scouts dress up. Karate clubs dress up too. They must also be cults. Unique symbolism? The Greeks used Pillars as symbols of strength, in fact, I think if you look at any of the symbols, you'll find they've been recycled by Masonry, and were used many times long before Masonry every came into being.

Thanks Squod. I'm sure it's equally frustrating for you CT'ers as it is for members. Either which way, it's an interesting debate, but for me, I just don't understand how something tangible, real, open, visible, and well published as Masonry can still in this day and age be accused of being a CT, when nearly everything Masonry does can be Googled (Of course, googling throws up the hysterical sensationalist made up stuff too). I genuinely think that the accusations are better directed at the Illuminati - if there is such an organisation.

Masonry from my experience, and from my reading up on it for a long time before every becoming a member, is just harmless. It's just guys meeting up like any club, raising a bit of money for charity like any club, and making friendships like any club.

The reasons there's more degrees is that if you did the same thing every month for 50 years, you'd go off your head. So the degrees give you something to do, and something new to see. Kinda like the bike club I'm in. If we all had the same motorbike and drove the same roads for the last 10 years and never changed it, we'd go mental. We change bikes, and try new roads to keep the club interesting - same reason there's other degrees. Keeps it from becoming old, or stagnant. That's all.

Kernel wrote: »

With respect, I think you've taken me up wrong with regard to the term 'secret-society'. I didn't mean to imply that it was secret, in the sense that it's an organisation that nobody knows about. I mean secret society in the terms that there are oaths of secrecy taken. Do you disagree with this?

No, not at all. In fact, thanks for clarifying it. I read your question wrong. It's an open enough society, the oaths of secrecy taken are specifically about how we recognise each other. Not that we can tell by looking of course, but it's about handshakes, phrases and stuff like that. Anything else we can talk about.

Kernel wrote: »

That may well be, but in fairness you haven't really answered the point. You may ask any question you like, my concern would be whether you would get the true answers, or whether you must wait to ascend to higher ranks in order to learn the truth. Many of the symbols explained to the initiate have further meanings which are explained when you advance, is this not correct?

Not really. The initiate is shown a bunch of symbols, and they're explained. Then you get your second degree, you get another bunch of symbols, they're explained. That carries on for ages. But here's the thing. Anyone who's a Mason, or anyone who's not, can get books on Masonry, written by Masons which explain all the symbols, the meaning of them, the history of them, and of the order itself (As best we know it). The only thing that's kept secret as I've said before, is the modes of recognition of each degree.

Kernel wrote: »

Do you think that the Knights Templar may have sought refuge within freemasonry at one point? That is a conspiracy in itself. Certainly, any freemasonry I have come across seems to have multiple references to the Templars.

The romantic in me would love nothing more. How cool would that be! That movie National Treasure would pretty much be it then. Unfortunately, no one knows how Masonry started, or any history of it before 17xx. There was a metal square found inside a bridge in Limerick from the 16th century (Could be the 15th too, brain no workey) which had a Masonic phrase on it, but as far as official records go, they don't go back thousands of years, just a few hundred.

Kernel wrote: »

Maybe so, but on the flipside of the coin, there are many powerful masons as well. It would seem a disproportionate percentage in fact, are members of freemasonry or other offshoot secret-societies.

I'd argue that point with you. I think there are far more normal people in Masonry, than people with any influence (And by influence, I mean the likes of Doctors, or Solicitors, etc, I don't mean Presidents, or that sort of thing). In any meeting the world over, it'll mostly be comprised of insurance sales people, the likes of me, carpenters, vets, doctors, accountants, that sort of thing. And I've been to meetings in NYC, Poland, the UK, the North here, the Isle of Man, and I've chatted with members from Asia and Australia - the routine seems to be pretty much the same the world over.

I do conceed the point though, that like any organisation or any club, there probably are - in fact there certainly must be - people who are powerful in society as members. Just like the K Club golf club has, and probably like the various Lyons/Rotary clubs do too. Wouldn't be logical if it didn't.

Where the confusion arises is that I think non-members seem to think that Masons can get other Masons to do things illegally as favours, or get them to do things as favours without having to go through the correct channels, etc.

The problem with that theory is - and I've said this dozens of times before too - that one of the first oaths you take is to uphold the laws of the country you live in, and to be upright (Honest) with all mankind. If you do anything remotely shady, you're booted out. You're also told that your personal life is more important than Masonry too. You're told that while it'd be great to attend every meeting, that your work, and your family must come first.

And if you made any half assed attempt at googling, you'd also see that Albert Pike is frequently misquoted out of context by dozens and dozens of CT sites. Fail.

Here's one of dozens of sites which will correct your mistake :
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/pike_a/misquotes.html

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Because (And apologies to Yekahs - you're a new Mod, this doesn't apply to you), the moderation in the CT forum on this subject is shockingly poor. I've been given warnings and infractions for arguing with people clearly spouting utter bullsh*t about a club I'm a part of, and calling them on it.

The problem I had with this is that if I was a member of my local scout troup, and someone came on to boards accusing my troup of being a bunch of paedophiles, and grooming children, the accuser would be banned, I'd be believed as an actual member giving my experience, and we'd move on. I raised this point with a Mod after getting my warnings/infractions, and I was told by the Mods to report posts I had an issue with. I reported dozens over a period of a month. Not one was acted upon. Not one.

Unfortunately, for some reason this forum is immune to the normal boards rules of slander, and listening to wild accusation after wild accusation, I had enough. Up until then, I'd actually been a Mod of 2 forums here, but I thought f*ck it, why should I have to give my free time to help out around here, and have to listen to the most disgusting things being said about my fraternity and the Moderators in this forum doing SFA about it. I resigned my Modship over the issue.

No doubt, I'll probably get another warning, or infraction for this too.

To be fair to the mods here, the internet is full of scare story's about the Freemasons. The Freemasons are spoken about like the boogie man. So it's pretty difficult to discuss CT's without speaking about Freemasons. It's seems to me that a lot of people on this forum take major exception to even a perceived insult but have no problem saying really terrible things about Freemasons, amongst others. One of my own friends has joined the Freemasons and he says the same things you do about them. I think people forget that governments and society's (even secret ones) are made up of mostly ordinary people. People who are not eating babies of an evening.