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The Playstation 3 has been "jailbroken" *MOD NOTE POST 220*

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    #302
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Helix wrote: »
    How/why? I can understand itd invalidate warranty but how could it be against the law to put debug firmware on a retail box?

    All software is a licence and can only be used a the creator allows and the licences states what you can or can't do, most countries have laws about back up and if they're legal or not and if bypassing protection to make a legal backup is legal.


    For the EULA, the U.S just passed a case against someone who was selling auto cad used and it seems that at least over there the EULA will be now very enforceable and Used games may be getting a smack in the face.

    For us even if it's illegal or not, nothing much will happen but in countries where Lawyers can demand the person behind an ip to be given over by the ISP, Sony can start suing those using these exploits directly as long as one line of code is theirs.

    With that in mind, if someone can get Minecraft working on a ps3 i will be very happy.


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    #303
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Varik wrote: »
    Sony can start suing those using these exploits directly as long as one line of code is theirs.

    If there was any Sony code used in the exploit, Matheuilh would have never put his name to PSgroove. The exploit has been fully reverse-engineered and every character of code has been publically posted.

    The backup-manager however, is a different story. That WAS built using the Sony SDK.


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    #304
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    EnterNow wrote: »
    If there was any Sony code used in the exploit, Matheuilh would have never put his name to PSgroove. The exploit has been fully reverse-engineered and every character of code has been publically posted.

    The backup-manager however, is a different story. That WAS built using the Sony SDK.

    Yes and that's why PSgroove is fine, it's everything that was already on the ps3 being used in a way that violates the licence.


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    #305
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Varik wrote: »
    Yes and that's why PSgroove is fine, it's everything that was already on the ps3 being used in a way that violates the licence.

    Such as?


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    #306
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Such as?

    Unless someone is using an completely new firmware they are using Sony's 3.41 and while the exploit is fine using it with Sony's ofw violates the eula and all software is a licence on how you can use it.


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    #307
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Varik wrote: »
    Unless someone is using an completely new firmware they are using Sony's 3.41 and while the exploit is fine using it with Sony's ofw violates the eula and all software is a licence on how you can use it.

    How does using the exploit with OFW violate the EULA? Here's an excerpt
    You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software

    On a technical level, the exploit modifies none of the written code of the encrypted system software. Any features that are unlocked, were already written into the code. It gives you nothing new that wasn't already there. How is it any different to accessing the engineers menu on a TV? If Sony were after end users, they would have a field day with the PSP.

    Those who bought PS3's with the promise of Linux out of the box, or PS2 compatibility, might say it's poetic justice. I agree to a point.


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    #308
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software

    also says nothing about using a firmware file on a different type of machine than it was intended because its not leasing, renting, sublicensing, publishing, modifying, adapting, translating, reverse engineering, decompiling or disassembling any portion of it. so i still cant see how its illegal?


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    #309
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    You may not bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, digital rights management or authentication mechanism in connection with Sony Online Services or any of the content or service offered through Sony Online Services.

    The PS3 doesn't allow for unsigned code or the installation of another firmware not made for the retail/debug unit which ever the case may be, it's the unlocking of features that breaches the Eula.

    The Firmware at the time of the otherOS removal was not an update as the full firmware was downloaded each time, and was not disabled but no in the newer firmware.

    The B.C was still Hardware dependant and if your PS3 doesn't have it now it never did.


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    #310
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Varik wrote: »
    it's the unlocking of features that breaches the Eula.

    I'm no lawyer, but having spent the last couple of weeks reading the technical aspects and the ins & outs of the exploit, I'd argue that it's the PS3 itself that 'unlocks' the package file installer, not the direct actions of the user. The user hasn't got direct access to the system software, only LV1 & LV2 have. If the PS3 gets confused, it's a Sony boo-boo. It's a loophole, and I don't agree that on paper, carrying out the exploit (and solely the exploit) violates the EULA.


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    #311
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I'm no lawyer, but having spent the last couple of weeks reading the technical aspects and the ins & outs of the exploit, I'd argue that it's the PS3 itself that 'unlocks' the package file installer, not the direct actions of the user. The user hasn't got direct access to the system software, only LV1 & LV2 have. If the PS3 gets confused, it's a Sony boo-boo. It's a loophole, and I don't agree that on paper, carrying out the exploit (and solely the exploit) violates the EULA.
    You could always drop Sony an email (providing your name and address) and see what they have to say about it ? ;)


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    #312
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    isnt the exploit technically just a feature of the software sony have provided, albeit not an intended one?


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    #313
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I'm no lawyer, but having spent the last couple of weeks reading the technical aspects and the ins & outs of the exploit, I'd argue that it's the PS3 itself that 'unlocks' the package file installer, not the direct actions of the user. The user hasn't got direct access to the system software, only LV1 & LV2 have. If the PS3 gets confused, it's a Sony boo-boo. It's a loophole, and I don't agree that on paper, carrying out the exploit (and solely the exploit) violates the EULA.

    Not sure about the rest of the world but in Ireland and the EU, any measure of protection even a simple password or any measure regardless of it effectiveness is protected. the below is from the Copyright Directive. Irish law has some additional aspects including protection from devices that only assist rather than circumvent software protection themselves.
    Article 6 of the Directive provides protection for "technological measures", any technology device or component which is designed to restrict or prevent certain acts which are not authorised by the rightholder. Member States must provide "adequate legal protection", which may be civil, criminal or a mix of the two. Technological measures are only protected if they are "effective", which means not when they actually work but when they have been successfully implemented. A simple password is thus "effective" irrespective of the ease with which it may be cracked. Rightholders who use such anti-circumvention measures must allow reproduction which is permitted under the limitations to copyright protection [Art. 6(4)]. Digital rights management information is similarly protected (Art. 7).
    Unlike Section 1201 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which only prohibits circumvention of access control measures, InfoSoc Directive also prohibits circumvention of copy protection measures, making it potentially more restrictive. In both DMCA and InfoSoc Directive, production, distribution etc. of equipment used to circumvent both access and copy-protection is prohibited. Under DMCA, a potential user who wants to avail herself of an alleged fair use privilege to crack copy protection (which is not prohibited) would have to do it herself since no equipment would lawfully be marketed for that purpose. Under InfoSoc Directive, this possibility would not be available since circumvention of copy protection is illegal.[6]

    This is a link to where it was enter into irish law.


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    #314
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    gizmo wrote: »
    You could always drop Sony an email (providing your name and address) and see what they have to say about it ? ;)

    Shall I email Nintendo to and ask about the technicalities bannerbomb exploit? I may aswell do a Microsoft one too asking about the legalities of a jtag exploit what ya reckon?

    It's easy to say the exploit violates the EULA, the fact is it modifies no programme code of the system software - the PS3 does.


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    #315
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Shall I email Nintendo to and ask about the technicalities bannerbomb exploit? I may aswell do a Microsoft one too asking about the legalities of a jtag exploit what ya reckon?

    It's easy to say the exploit violates the EULA, the fact is it modifies no programme code of the system software - the PS3 does.
    It was a half joke really, if you're sure it's not illegal then there should be no problem talking to Sony about it. I'd wager that most people wouldn't do it though. :)

    As for the EULA violation, you're still forcing the PS3 to do it so that can be seen as tampering in itself surely? As with you, I'm not a lawyer but I'm certainly on the other side of the fence when it comes to jailbreaking/pirating.


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    #316
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    gizmo wrote: »
    I'm certainly on the other side of the fence when it comes to jailbreaking/pirating.

    So I'm a pro-pirate now? Have a a look at the console modding forum charter, & have a look at some of my moderating calls on a similar thread there :rolleyes: There's a BIG distinction between simply using an exploit, and using the exploit for theft. Most anti-exploit people can't seem to make the distinction though.


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    #317
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    EnterNow wrote: »
    So I'm a pro-pirate now? Have a a look at the console modding forum charter, & have a look at some of my moderating calls on a similar thread there :rolleyes: There's a BIG distinction between simply using an exploit, and using the exploit for theft. Most anti-exploit people can't seem to make the distinction though.
    I was simply stating my own opinion on both issues, jailbreaking being the term I assume people are using for homebrew, so no need to get defensive. :)

    As for the difference in general, well I'd imagine the anti-exploit people would be less suspicious if it wasn't obvious the vast majority of people carrying out these hacks are doing so so they can play pirated games.


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    #318
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    gizmo wrote: »
    I was simply stating my own opinion on both issues, jailbreaking being the term I assume people are using for homebrew, so no need to get defensive. :)

    Well my apologies if so, but the way you worded it made it appear to me that we were on opposite sides of the fence regards piracy. I guess it just irks me that a lot of people never bridge the difference beteen the exploit & the theft. PSgroove on it's own, can just about copy a game as much as my elctric guitar can :p

    I see there's a development in re-enabling the OtherOS installer, but it seemingly involves doing a bold thing. Seperately, Sony are appealing for the class action suits against the removal of OtherOS to be dismissed.


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    #319
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Well my apologies if so, but the way you worded it made it appear to me that we were on opposite sides of the fence regards piracy. I guess it just irks me that a lot of people never bridge the difference beteen the exploit & the theft. PSgroove on it's own, can just about copy a game as much as my elctric guitar can :p
    Ah no worries, as I said on another thread, I have no problem with opening up the console to homebrew or ****ing about with. Hell I don't care if you take the thing apart and play with it (on that note, your Nomad mod looked awesome ;) ) but I can't condone any method which opens the console up to pirating games and unfortunately, this mod has. Yes, I know the PSgroove doesn't specifically do this but this "family", has allowed it and the effects just simply aren't worth it imo.


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    #320
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    gizmo wrote: »
    but I can't condone any method which opens the console up to pirating games and unfortunately, this mod has. Yes, I know the PSgroove doesn't specifically do this but this "family", has allowed it and the effects just simply aren't worth it imo.

    Unfortunately man, most of them do :( I guess it leaves the user with a moral decision to make. I've some SNES/Megadrive emulators running on the Wii through HBC, and while I've no issue doing that, it would also be very easy to fall into playing backups. The fact that I don't I suppose gives me some gratification, & re-enforces my belief that it's not the exploits that pirate games, it's people. I guess we're digressing into philosophy here, I better stop before Mr.E moves the thread to the philosophy forum :D

    Yeah the Nomad mod was pretty cool. I ended up buying one last night, bloody o1s1n & Andrew76 with their stupidly cool & tempting Nomads :pac:


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    #321
    vandammaged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭vandammaged


    Hello has anyone been banned from psn yet ?

    Do you think they will ban people ?


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    #322
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    You can't access PSN if using the jailbreak mod any more so I doubt they can be banned. :)


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    #323
    vandammaged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭vandammaged


    So how many hacks are out ?

    Ps3 Liberator
    PS3Key
    jailbreak
    ps3 break

    Do I have that list righis that how many there are ?

    Well the hack increases sales in the ps3.


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    #324
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    vandammaged wrote: »
    Well the hack increases sales in the ps3.

    Maybe for a short time, but once current stock has sold out I would imagine all new stock from Sony will ship with FW > 3.41


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    #325
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,749 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    gizmo wrote: »
    You can't access PSN if using the jailbreak mod any more so I doubt they can be banned. :)

    It seems likely PSN will be possible for jailbroken PS3's given the level of access devs have to the machine, it just going to take some time for the devs to get there.


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    #326
    vandammaged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭vandammaged


    Im sure they will find a way too downgrade it.
    Inquitus wrote: »
    Maybe for a short time, but once current stock has sold out I would imagine all new stock from Sony will ship with FW > 3.41


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    #327
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    vandammaged wrote: »
    Im sure they will find a way too downgrade it.

    They may not though. Look at the xbox scene, once your dashboard version is higher than 7371, you can't exploit the Kernel. 3.41 could be the last exploitable f/w, time will tell.


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    #328
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Looks like unlicensed peripheral owners are the latest casualty...

    PS3 update disables third party pads.

    :(


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    #329
    rizzla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭rizzla


    gizmo wrote: »
    Looks like unlicensed peripheral owners are the latest casualty...

    PS3 update disables third party pads.

    :(

    Maybe they're goin controller-less too now. But forgot to release the peripheral first. ;)

    What a bunch of BS, glad I didn't update now. Wonder if my MW2 controller works though, it uses a USB dongle. Would love it more if I could hack my ps3 with it.


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    #330
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,521 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    gizmo wrote: »
    Looks like unlicensed peripheral owners are the latest casualty...

    PS3 update disables third party pads.

    :(

    The exploit itself was fixed already on 3.42 PS3s, and while all those device that it's be made to run off are far more prevalent than anything else it doesn't change much in the short run. It will affect the ability of new methods to be implemented on later firmwares but for now nothing changes.

    I'm happy, but it's more to do with those KB/M adapters and rapid fire/macro controllers getting banned.


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    #331
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Varik wrote: »
    The exploit itself was fixed already on 3.42 PS3s, and while all those device that it's be made to run off are far more prevalent than anything else it doesn't change much in the short run. It will affect the ability of new methods to be implemented on later firmwares but for now nothing changes.

    I'm happy, but it's more to do with those KB/M adapters and rapid fire/macro controllers getting banned.
    I'd disagree, there have been similar controllers on the market for some time, why would they choose now to do this? It looks more like an attack on USB devices which in turn means the jailbreak devices which is why, as a sidenote, I posted it in here. :)


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