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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #952
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    westtip wrote: »
    How many of the Tuam Galway commuters actually work in the city? ie within a reasonable 5/10 min walk of the station. how many work out of the city centre. How many do the school run before they head off to work, how many of them need to pick the kids up after school, or do a shop or nip to their aged parents. How many work regular commuter hours on the dot 9-5 how many are a lot shift workers, or do flexible hours how many are retail workers with late opening, weekend work, and shops located on out of town ring roads - you see the good people of Tuam will all say yes we need our railway - then ask them with the lifestyles they have and flexibility they need - will they actually use it when its in place. What needs to be identified is this - is there really that unfulfilled need for this service, or has this whole thing now become a matter of spiteful political principles? Have we in fact "lost track" of why or if a railway is needed on this route. Or is it just because one group shouted loud and we (not me!) just went along with all the white noise they have been making.

    Think about this - Lets say the morning service from Tuam is at 8.10 every morning this one early commuting train will not provide the flexibility people want, thats why they won't use it, (the same actually applies to the one commuter train from Ennis to Galway in the morning) To have a proper commuter service you need to have regular trains at regular intervals - this level of service could not be provided for Tuam (no more than it can be provided on the southern branch line), this is why the codology has to stop. Tuam/Galway is not a candidate for rail commuting because it will be impossible to provide proper commuter service due to lack of resources on the part of IE. So why bother with it when the flexibility provided by an improved bus service on better roads will actually give the public transport service needed. The people along the WRC are being hoodwinked into thinking this (the WRC) will be a great thing, then when its open the rail operator can only offer a very limited service - and people complain because its not like the Dart. You get what you desire and whats possible, is it really worth clamouring to open a line that at best will offer a poor service?

    all this talk about trains waiting in Athenry and merging trains in Athenry from the northern branch line and southern branch line - all this even now before any work has been done on the Tuam line is already considering how will IE manage this dogs breakfast, I actually begin to feel a bit sorry for IE, because the mess is not entirely of their own making. And yet if it does happen, the WOT crowd will puff their chests out have the bands on the platforms on the opening day and say look we opened the line when people said it was not possible - then the service levels - which will be limited due to resources at IE and demand on the line - will end up in a political circle of debate as to why its not working, and poor old IE will get blamed for lack of service levels and not "promoting" it enough. In the end - I regret to say it is the West of Ireland that gets discredited and loses out and we in the west all get tarred with the same brush for campaigning for the wrong type of investment and playing the poor wesht card.

    Anyway speech over - I honestly believe Commuting works for moving lots and lots of people into city centres - meaningful cities in terms of size and meaningful commuter volumes and meaningful timetables to match the way people work and to match the population a proper commuter line can support. You won't get this level of service on a Tuam "commuter" service, because it will be impossible to provide. which is why I think this whole thing is a smoke screen and white elephant.

    Mark my words much of what I have written above will come to pass if Tuam is re-opened. Is that what people really want to see happening???


    An oasis of sense in this debate.

    You are absolutely right about commuting and given the money that has been spent on inter-urban motorways, the only future for rail is commuting. It doesn't matter whether it was right to spend the money on roads, it has happened. The future of inter-city public transport in Ireland is the bus.

    As for rail commuting, you are right about Tuam/Galway not working. Outside of Dublin and Cork it is difficult to identify medium-term workable commuter rail options.


  • #953
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    A bikeshare scheme is being rolled out in Toronto - but it MUST have 1,000 commitments before kickoff. This is what's needed in Irish public transport infrastructure - people to put their money where their mouth is.


  • #954
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Godge wrote: »
    An oasis of sense in this debate.

    You are absolutely right about commuting and given the money that has been spent on inter-urban motorways, the only future for rail is commuting. It doesn't matter whether it was right to spend the money on roads, it has happened. The future of inter-city public transport in Ireland is the bus.

    As for rail commuting, you are right about Tuam/Galway not working. Outside of Dublin and Cork it is difficult to identify medium-term workable commuter rail options.

    very well said. Its a pity that thosae few voices on here against this folly are being looked at as some sort of lunatic fringe.


  • #955
    Propellerhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 394 ✭✭Propellerhead


    corktina wrote: »
    very well said. Its a pity that thosae few voices on here against this folly are being looked at as some sort of lunatic fringe.
    Godge wrote:
    The future of inter-city public transport in Ireland is the bus.

    Given the decision made by the NTA to rubberstamp Irish Rail's decision to close Waterford - Rosslare, it does in fact seem that if there are lunatics then they are at the heart of public administration of this country, and not a few random ordinary folks on a internet forum.

    I am sure that plenty of senior civil servants would be only too pleased to prune the railways beyond the point of recognition, and you would find an echo in your views with the likes of Colm MacCarthy and Sean Barrett. I would be very hard pressed to consider the An Bord Snip Nua people outsiders.

    Indeed for the last thirty years, unless you are fresh out of the box or otherwise haven't noticed, one of the minor blood sports of some journalists and economists has been baiting the railways. Forget about Anglo Irish Bank and bailing out the bondholders of AIB and BofI, for some it has been much more important to draw fire on and possibly sink the railways.


    The Sunday Business Post and the Tribune carried article after article, right up to the opening of Luas, setting it up to be a failure. Notoriously, our Bord Snip lads from the comfort of Doheny and Nesbitts pontificated that we didn't need the railways at all at the time that CIE were building the DART and investing in the Mark III carriages.

    If you are a lunatic fringe advocating the ripping up of railways, then you are in a very comfortably off asylum driving a nice car to and from treatment.


  • #956
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Propellerhead wrote: »
    Given the decision made by the NTA to rubberstamp Irish Rail's decision to close Waterford - Rosslare, it does in fact seem that if there are lunatics then they are at the heart of public administration of this country, and not a few random ordinary folks on a internet forum.

    I am sure that plenty of senior civil servants would be only too pleased to prune the railways beyond the point of recognition, and you would find an echo in your views with the likes of Colm MacCarthy and Sean Barrett. I would be very hard pressed to consider the An Bord Snip Nua people outsiders.

    Indeed for the last thirty years, unless you are fresh out of the box or otherwise haven't noticed, one of the minor blood sports of some journalists and economists has been baiting the railways. Forget about Anglo Irish Bank and bailing out the bondholders of AIB and BofI, for some it has been much more important to draw fire on and possibly sink the railways.


    The Sunday Business Post and the Tribune carried article after article, right up to the opening of Luas, setting it up to be a failure. Notoriously, our Bord Snip lads from the comfort of Doheny and Nesbitts pontificated that we didn't need the railways at all at the time that CIE were building the DART and investing in the Mark III carriages.

    If you are a lunatic fringe advocating the ripping up of railways, then you are in a very comfortably off asylum driving a nice car to and from treatment.


    But you can't say I am against all rail.

    The DART interconnector is the most important piece of infrastructure due to be built in the next few years, it must be done properly and with electrification of the Maynooth and Kildare lines. If I am a lunatic......?

    I am not against rail, I am against mad rail schemes. Given the distances between Ireland's major cities (Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick), there is no chance that rail can compete now that the motorways are built. I think too many motorways were built but I am not crying over that spilt milk. Face up to the reality - we cannot afford to invest in inter-city rail.

    As for the more remote places on the network - Castlebar, Tralee, Westport - there isn't the population to support rail. One hundred years of dispersed settlement does not a rail-friendly country make, no amount of wishing and hoping will change that.


  • #957
    KevR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    dowlingm wrote: »
    A bikeshare scheme is being rolled out in Toronto - but it MUST have 1,000 commitments before kickoff. This is what's needed in Irish public transport infrastructure - people to put their money where their mouth is.

    Seeing that the people of Crusheen are demanding a train station, IE should demand that X annual commuter tickets are sold before the station gets built. Population of the town is only 700 approx so I'm not sure what a reasonable number of annual commuter tickets would be.


  • #958
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    They may be demanding a station, but why can't IE just say no? They only have 700 people. It's not rocket science.


  • #959
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    they will most likely get their station because it will be built by friends of relatives friends etc etc and nothing shouts louder than a big wad of cash whether in the politicians pocket or in the party coffers!


  • #960
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Propellerhead - I take it you have read the NTA's decision and the supporting documents. What specifically do you take issue with?


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  • #961
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    they will most likely get their station because it will be built by friends of relatives friends etc etc and nothing shouts louder than a big wad of cash whether in the politicians pocket or in the party coffers!
    Even better - they will do it with taxpayer money
    Irish Railway News 172 wrote:
    IÉ also said “A local developer is prepared to make some land available for a station and car park [at Crusheen], and Clare County Council has agreed to cooperate with the scheme. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs have indicated that they may provide CLÁR funding for the station and IÉ has submitted a formal application for the funding this year".
    and this is being done on behalf of Minister Killeen.

    Meanwhile the European Commission says there is up to 64 million in European money available for rail freight - not one Dublin minister pickpocketing another or giving block grants to Clare Council, external funding - but IE have no projects to suggest.


  • #962
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Even better - they will do it with taxpayer money
    and this is being done on behalf of Minister Killeen.

    Meanwhile the European Commission says there is up to 64 million in European money available for rail freight - not one Dublin minister pickpocketing another or giving block grants to Clare Council, external funding - but IE have no projects to suggest.
    forget railfreight it is a redundant service in ireland and bringing it up at every turn only clouds the bigger issues!

    yes there is the balina service a few times a week with "mixed" loads but only the fact that the companies involved want to go direct to port and are not working to a strict timetable and rail in this case is cheaper because there are no good roads serving these factories is it still operating!

    can you name one large company that would pay a useless company like irish rail for one train a day from their base to port? most companies like to work to a timetable and schedule and apart from the cost being prohibitive set against road freight you also have the problem of finding a company that is based beside a turn of the "19th century" rail line that has not been closed.

    railfreight is dead in ireland and pretty soon everything else except for commuter services and the more lucrative intercity services will also be dead and buried including the western rail corridor


  • #963
    highlydebased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,471 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Just saw this on the latest IRRS journal, as regards passenger numbers
    Timetabled services began next day, with 5 trains each way per weekday and four on a Sunday. Early indications were that traffic was good and the two-car 2700-class was inadequate on many occasions and had to be replaced by a four-car set. The 09:35 Limerick-Galway and 17:25 Galway–Limerick are particularly good loaders. On Tuesday 6 April, there were more than 230 passengers departing Galway on the 17:25 Galway-Limerick. On Thursday 22 April, there were 107 passengers departing Galway in the two-car set on the 17:25 Galway-Limerick. On Saturday, 24 April there were approximately 165 passengers on the four-car 17:25 Galway-Limerick departing Galway, with about 120 continuing onwards from Athenry. This was much more than on the 15:30 Dublin-Galway, which arrived into Athenry shortly afterwards.

    On 30 April, IÉ issued a statement “The first month’s operations have exceeded expectations, with significant demand experienced from day one. The 16,000 passenger journeys recorded are on top of the existing 14,400 monthly journeys on the Limerick-Ennis service, meaning the through route has seen over 30,000 passenger journeys in its first month... This is a strong and encouraging start for this new service. While the initial interest was a great start, we are now seeing daily demand being sustained. There is little doubt that as summer approaches, new demand – in the form of domestic and overseas tourists – will also see new rail customers taking to the line. It is clear that the support which existed from the community for this line to reopen is translating into passenger demand.”


  • #964
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    optimistic to the point of the ludicrus.


  • #965
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Neon-Circles wrote: »
    Just saw this on the latest IRRS journal, as regards passenger numbers

    This is the old news reported before the summer, when the new restaurant in town syndrom was still at work. There has not been another press release since April with any positive news about numbers being sustained and now we are into normal times - the September - October - November figures are the acid test. The Gort bypass will be open then......


  • #966
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I agree with westtip - the "first month" numbers have been played out by now. However, I would prefer that IE be required to produce ALL ticketed passenger numbers for ALL routes, if for no other reason than it might point to a few lines where lack of RPU activity is understating things!


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  • #967
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Good idea a bit like the NRA traffic counts and lets face it with electronic ticketing it can't be rocket science to do this - any business will keep track of its customer numbers and these numbers (passenger numbers) quite simply must be available to IE management on at least a weekly basis. They should be available on a train by train basis. After all int he event of an emergency shouldn't they be able to say - there 45 people on that train.

    IN fact with cctv someone in IE should be able to do demographic profile of every train - ha ha = of course if you don't need to ever improve your business if you don't need to think of ways to find out who your customers are and how you can target them or poeple like them - like every other business has too you wouldn't bother investing in getting this kind of market intelligence!


  • #968
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,280 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Season tickets and generally non-train-specific day tickets make that kind of precision (per-train usage) impossible. But surveys are carried out to determine pricing for season tickets and the like so they DO have fairly accurate figures if they want to reveal them.


  • #969
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    they will most likely get their station because it will be built by friends of relatives friends etc etc

    No it generally doesn't work that way.


  • #970
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    MYOB wrote: »
    Season tickets and generally non-train-specific day tickets make that kind of precision (per-train usage) impossible. But surveys are carried out to determine pricing for season tickets and the like so they DO have fairly accurate figures if they want to reveal them.

    Every train and station these days is covered by CCTV without prying into who is on the train and maintainging anonymity-there is plenty of software choices for counting footfall via CCTV images, the large retailers use it all the time - with deadly accuracy. My point is this if I was running a business and had this information at my finger tips daily then I would want it, because it would enable you to run your business better.

    The reality is a company like IE is not run with this mindset that thinks information about customers could be used to run the service better....It really is a culture issue for a company like IE. Tey should have accurate daily data about passenger loadings on this line - in fact on every line - and the truth is they probably do but care not to publish them - for competitive reasons, but if a member of the public asks for them.....perhaps under FOI we would be able to obtain them.


  • #971
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    forget railfreight it is a redundant service in ireland and bringing it up at every turn only clouds the bigger issues!

    yes there is the balina service a few times a week with "mixed" loads but only the fact that the companies involved want to go direct to port and are not working to a strict timetable and rail in this case is cheaper because there are no good roads serving these factories is it still operating!

    It's not neccessarily there are no good roads. The Ballina freight trains run to a fairly consistent timetable, specific days and times etc... Companies such as IWT and DFDS are able to guarantee a full train load so it becomes profitable; they hire the entire train instead of individual wagons. The presence of Coca Cola in Ballina is no doubt a major factor as well.

    foggy_lad wrote: »
    railfreight is dead in ireland and pretty soon everything else except for commuter services and the more lucrative intercity services will also be dead and buried including the western rail corridor

    Traditional wagon load freight is long dead but freight will still survive to some extent in cases such like the IWT because a profit can be made from these services (full train loads).


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  • #972
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    westtip wrote: »
    This is the old news reported before the summer, when the new restaurant in town syndrom was still at work. There has not been another press release since April with any positive news about numbers being sustained and now we are into normal times - the September - October - November figures are the acid test. The Gort bypass will be open then......

    But by the same token there's no figures out to say it is doing poorly either. Until they're released it's a case of Schrödinger's cat as far as the sucess of the line is concerned. (discounting ancedotal evidence)


  • #973
    wild handlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭wild handlin


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    forget railfreight it is a redundant service in ireland and bringing it up at every turn only clouds the bigger issues!

    yes there is the balina service a few times a week with "mixed" loads but only the fact that the companies involved want to go direct to port and are not working to a strict timetable and rail in this case is cheaper because there are no good roads serving these factories is it still operating!

    can you name one large company that would pay a useless company like irish rail for one train a day from their base to port? most companies like to work to a timetable and schedule and apart from the cost being prohibitive set against road freight you also have the problem of finding a company that is based beside a turn of the "19th century" rail line that has not been closed.

    railfreight is dead in ireland and pretty soon everything else except for commuter services and the more lucrative intercity services will also be dead and buried including the western rail corridor

    I disagree foggy lad, I believe there's a market there for bulk transportation of materials and containerised traffic by rail, rather than let it all go by road.
    It goes without saying that it's bound to be cheaper...

    18x Lorries = 18+ crew, 18x tax, 18x fuel, 18x wear and tear.

    Freight train = 18 wagons, 2 crew, fuel for 1 loco, wear and tear on 18 wagons

    Passenger trains are already using the lines, so why not run freight on them?

    Freight used to be abundant in Ireland until IE sold off their freight yards to developers and built useless stations on it which serve nowhere.

    A few such flows which would be ideal for rail:

    Bulk Cement,
    Bulk Oil,
    Bulk Timber,
    Scrap Metal,
    Tar,
    Mineral Ores and Shale,
    Containerised Traffic,
    Beer Kegs.

    I agree that to run a train for what would be say (2x containers or less) is totally uneconomical for a company, however to run bulk trainloads from point to point does appear to make logical sence.....


  • #974
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    forget railfreight it is a redundant service in ireland and bringing it up at every turn only clouds the bigger issues!

    I think there is scope for some railfreight movements in Ireland. The problem is that once a manager from CIE/Irish Rail makes a statement then it is considered fact from that point on.

    I once gave an interview to a journalist about some rail issue I can't recall now. Phoenix Park Tunnel I think? Anyways, the article was published and my quotes were not in it. I call up the journalist in a nice way asked why when we spoke for so long did he not print my comments. He comes back with "well I spoke to a manager at CIE and we ran with his comments as he is an expert on rail and said what you were advocating is not possible."

    I see this kind of thing all the time. Dr John Lynch knows nothing about railways, yet his word in final on the matter in the media.


  • #975
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Really though when railway line that terminates at a busy port is closed it tells its own story and that is one of freight being unsustainable to such an extent even the railway has abandoned the idea!


  • #976
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Really though when railway line that terminates at a busy port is closed it tells its own story and that is one of freight being unsustainable to such an extent even the railway has abandoned the idea!

    What makes the situation even worse is that said port is owned by the railway company who removed any potential rail freight facilities and flung it's passenger station as far out of the port as they could!


  • #977
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Ah yes but we must remember that they(Irish rail/CIE) are the experts and we must bow to their immense professionalism and expertise(except where there are viaducts!) So obviously there is a bigger picture which we the public are too thick to understand.


  • #978
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Transportuser09 wrote: »
    But by the same token there's no figures out to say it is doing poorly either. Until they're released it's a case of Schrödinger's cat as far as the sucess of the line is concerned. (discounting ancedotal evidence)

    T09 if there was good news don't you think they would be telling us? Actually I don't think IE give a toss about the numbers, they don't run a business - they run a train service. Subtle difference is they don't depend on the numbers on the train they depend on the subvention they receive to run their trains, they are in the business of running trains not running a transport service people might use. Their subvention should be based on performance and not be a blank cheque - I read somewhere above a few pages back that the reported numbers on the WRC meant the subvention was only going to be 44 euro per passenger and not 90 - well lets not get into the ludicrous cross examination of how that money could be better spent on other aspects of public transport in the west but lets turn it on its head>

    Lets say IE received a subvention of say 25 euro per passenger per round trip on the WRC (or even on any mainline train), that the subvention was only for fare paying passengers, (say have a lesser rate for social justice and OAP travellors), that the passenger figures had to be published monthly and audited and the subvention was based on passengers boarding the train - which could be done with an electronic surveillance audit quite easily or straight forward record of ticket sales - quite easy to audit daily and ....if the subvention was uncapped - don't you think then that IE would work hard to promote the service, to run a tighter ship etc.

    The more passengers they got the more subvention they got. If this deal or something like it was offered to a private train operator we might actually get a better train service. Of course they would have to get rid of the unions, a lot of the managment, introduce flexible working practices, the final salary pension schemes, the free travel perks etc - basically everything a private transport company does - and before we say but how can you justify any subvention well railways on lines like the WRC will never make money in this day and age - in fact making money on railways is tough even on popular and heavily loaded commuter routes, so we have to accept a level of subvention - it is just how it is doled out that we need to examine.

    I don't know - I am shooting from the hip but its worth a debate about how we subvent these lines and take an approach that at least an element of the subvention should be based on what management do to get the service used - if staff salaries were dependent on revenue streams and passenger number targets I can assure you IE would be "promoting" the line better - but they don't and they simply have no incentive to make things better nor do they have any incentive to make the WRC work. I am afraid supporters of the WRC are in a way handicapped by the fact that the people running the line actually have no interest in the thing being a success - their jobs sadly do not depend on it. Notwithstanding all the arguments for or against the project with IE running the show, supporters of the WRC are IMO pushing water uphill.

    When passenger numbers turn out to be less than forecast over the long term (and ignore the first month please for the time being), IE will say its not our problem guvnor, we only run the trains if people don't use them what do you expect us to do .....the answer to this question sadly and it makes no difference what side to the railtrack you sit on in regard to WRC is NOTHING,SWEET FANNY ADAM, ZILCH, because it matters not a jot, they get paid, they wil get their pension and if push comes to shove they will get a dirty great redundancy package. They (IE) don't care because they are not made to care it really makes no difference to most of them if they care or don't care. The Government ATM (for the time being) is still paying the wages.....but that is not guarenteed for ever, and that's when the S H one T will hit the fan.


  • #979
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    should read game not fame in the title of this post.

    I Have been following the N17/18 thread over on Infrastructure forum and its seems from grapevine reports that the Gort Tuam project tender has been agreed with a potential start date in early 2011 for comletion 2013.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67896951&postcount=376
    tech2 wrote: »
    @ westtip,

    the scheme should commence construction early next year after the contracts are agreed during this month. Completion should be seen in 2.5-3 years max. I'd imagine the whole scheme has to open in one go although the Rathmorrissey-Gort M18 section is more vital it would be a real pain to go all the way back to Claregalway and travel up the N17. The regional road from Athenry-Tuam is a bad alternative. So it should open all in one go.

    I agree with you that this project is absolutely vital for the west. The journey times will be instantly slashed by an hour for several journeys along the western corridor. I regularly travel from Limerick-Sligo in 3hr 10mins although it only took me 2hr 50 mins a few days ago using the Limerick Tunnell. The Gort-Tuam scheme should shorten that to 2hr 5min and even make a journey to Donegal in 3 hrs!! Unbelieveable is what I say. This is almost like a fantasy motorway only that it will be made real in under 3 years :D

    Thats a good point on the N5. It is a poor national primary route from Charlestown to the East. Travelling down the N17 to Tuam and then motorway/dual carriageway standard road to Dublin is the best option. Any takers for a predicted AADT when the stretch opens?


    the above post from Tech2 really sums it up - is this the nail in the coffin of phases 2 and 3 - both of which are not through the planning process yet (1 or 2 years), in fact are still on costings and feasibility study status (will it take another 2 years to get to planning), potential project start date after this new road opens? probably never.

    Is this project as many of us suspect now at a halt in Athenry?


  • #980
    KevR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Was in Athenry station yesterday (Sunday evening) and I accurately counted 21 people on the train which was about to depart Athenry for Limerick at 18:57


  • #981
    Layzehfoo
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Layzehfoo


    Westtip, it's a long bunch of posts. You want to start a blog?

    I really don't think this rail line warrants the column inches, but if it's your bug-bear...


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  • #982
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    yeah westipp..listen to an experianced Boardsie advising you how to behave will you!!!!:D


  • #983
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Westtip, it's a long bunch of posts. You want to start a blog?

    I really don't think this rail line warrants the column inches, but if it's your bug-bear...

    www.sligomayogreenway.com


  • #984
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Given the need for gentle gradients, former rail lines are ideal candidates for greenways. I read a very positive article on the Otago Trail in New Zealand over the weekend that made that very point - it even includes a tunnel section!


  • #985
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    westtip wrote: »
    www.sligomayogreenway.com

    Is this website you westtip? I won't leave any message suggesting conversion of greenways to quadruple overhead electrified lines - if you're behind it. :D


  • #986
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Is this website you westtip? I won't leave any message suggesting conversion of greenways to quadruple overhead electrified lines - if you're behind it. :D

    da wesht demands it so...Mind you have you seen this news over on the infrastructure roads thread


    53.2 km of motorway from Gort to Tuam
    4.2 km of Type 2 dual carriageway passing to the west of Tuam town, to its termination point on the N17 north of Tuam at Mountpotter
    4 grade separated junctions at Kilternan (N67), Rathmorrisy (N6), Annagh Hill (N63) and Airgloony (R332)
    3 Roundabout junctions at: Kilmore (N17); Mountpotter (N17) and Demesne (N83)
    2 Railway Bridges – one over the live Galway Dublin line and the second over the currently disused Athenry Claremorris line near Tuam
    5 River Bridges over the Clarinbridge, Dunkellin, Abbert, Grange and Nanny Rivers
    31 Road Bridges


    http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/tuammotorway001/category/904

    The moment the bulldozers start on this project the WRC north of Athenry is a dead duck, finally killed off. It now will not happen.


  • #987
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If NRA maintained rail and road infrastructure as a unified mandate, a project like that could and should have included improvement/realignment of area rail track to reduce level crossings and level out grades. Instead these things happen in isolation.

    As an example, it's a crying shame that the Drogheda M1 bridge didn't have structures for a rail deck as a precursor to a 100mph alignment between Malahide and a North Drogheda station carrying express suburbans, Enterprise and sport specials. In Toronto, the Prince Edward viaduct had a second deck built 50 years before the subway was funded, but it would have been a hell of a job getting the subway across a very steep ravine if it wasn't ready and waiting.


  • #988
    Layzehfoo
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Layzehfoo


    Since this thread is miles off topic, and will remain that way permanently, I might as well tag along. Sure wish you'd rename it to "WRC & other topics". It'd give more room for the thread to go int he directions it goes.

    Re: road & rail combining, I wonder is it a case of people having a bug, or an issue, with building new lines. I take one of the main anti-WRC arguments, (after, I think, the fifteenth reading :rolleyes: ) is that the Limerick- Athenry stretch needed to be re-aligned to be viable. (Side note- I think it's viable enough. Not the most viable, but enough of a service to warrant its existence. Please don't jump down my throat, or make jibes at my expense, I've read the arguments you guys put up before, time and time again. I'm well aware of them. I'm just not completely convinced by them, and I'd appreciate if the thread wouldn't be soggied by attempts to change my mind or another bunch of reminders from you guys. I think we'll just have to go Atheist-to-Christian on this one.)

    My point is, up and down the country, there hasn't been a green-field railway built since the days of steam. No one even considers rails on new infrastructure projects unless there's an alignment already in place. I'm sure dowlingm's idea of a provision for railway lines to go over the bridge at the M1 would have been nice, but there already exists an imposing viaduct in the town of Drogheda itself, a landmark that the town won't readily see go disused.

    "shure why go wayshtin munneh an bildin a line when dere's wan dere?"


  • #989
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    cough LUAS cough


  • #990
    Layzehfoo
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Layzehfoo


    corktina wrote: »
    cough LUAS cough

    Can you do me a favour and edit your post to suggest the LUAS in a more conversational manner? I take your point, but I've no intention of insulting you or your intelligence, and I ask for the same courtesy.


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  • #991
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Since this thread is miles off topic, and will remain that way permanently, I might as well tag along. Sure wish you'd rename it to "WRC & other topics". It'd give more room for the thread to go int he directions it goes.

    Re: road & rail combining, I wonder is it a case of people having a bug, or an issue, with building new lines. I take one of the main anti-WRC arguments, (after, I think, the fifteenth reading :rolleyes: ) is that the Limerick- Athenry stretch needed to be re-aligned to be viable. (Side note- I think it's viable enough. Not the most viable, but enough of a service to warrant its existence. Please don't jump down my throat, or make jibes at my expense, I've read the arguments you guys put up before, time and time again. I'm well aware of them. I'm just not completely convinced by them, and I'd appreciate if the thread wouldn't be soggied by attempts to change my mind or another bunch of reminders from you guys. I think we'll just have to go Atheist-to-Christian on this one.)

    My point is, up and down the country, there hasn't been a green-field railway built since the days of steam. No one even considers rails on new infrastructure projects unless there's an alignment already in place. I'm sure dowlingm's idea of a provision for railway lines to go over the bridge at the M1 would have been nice, but there already exists an imposing viaduct in the town of Drogheda itself, a landmark that the town won't readily see go disused.

    "shure why go wayshtin munneh an bildin a line when dere's wan dere?"

    Its not really off topic the impact the N17/18 will have on the WRC is integral to the arguments that have been put on this thread.

    I agree with much of you say BTW, I am not anti rail my arguments against the WRC have been against the rationale of the old line and in fact the demographics, which don't work for this project and the fact that the west is so totally car dependent -and that won't change.

    Personally I think all the new inter-urbans should have had the capability for high speed rail links running up the central reservation and have new stations at key junctions outside towns - the idea that rail lines have to deliver passengers to city centre - where less people live and indeed work, is not written on tablets of stone. Say around the M50 imagine a Luas running round the central reservation and the employment centres it could have served. Sounds crazy - well go to Chicago and get the train in from O'hare airport - the suburban train service runs down the middle of an urban clearway dual carriageway.

    I have floated out the idea of having a service station on the M18/M6 interchange - along with a bus station and actually mentioned somewhere the WRC shoudl be realigned to have a station in this same interchange and avoid going into Athenry - these things can be planned and done - the problem is to many vested parties and fingers in the pie and not one master in charge of infrastructure planning. We need a mussolini to get it right and look what happened to him.

    I am all for these kind of forward thinking ideas but there is no joined up thinking in transport infrastructure planning, and the WRC is one of the clearest examples of this lack of joined up thinking.


  • #992
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    Can you do me a favour and edit your post to suggest the LUAS in a more conversational manner? I take your point, but I've no intention of insulting you or your intelligence, and I ask for the same courtesy.

    what a hoot...this thread gets better and better....


  • #993
    Transportuser09
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Transportuser09


    Building a completely new link is all well and good when it can be afforded, but even in the 'good times' a brand new rail link wouldn't have been sanctioned in this country. And even if it was, you would probably have people complaining that their was a perfectly good line already that could have been relayed.


  • #994
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Layzehfoo - are you aware of the limitations inherent in the Drogheda Viaduct? If not, would you mind acquainting yourself?

    As for realigning Athenry-Ennis, it'd be nice, sure, but I think most of us here would have settled for a regraded alignment - mostly upward due flooding, no 5mph SRs on rebuilt bridges and no stops in the middle of bloody nowhere (Ardrahan, Craughwell). Oh - and passing loops at Oranmore and Sixmilebridge on day 1.


  • #995
    Layzehfoo
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Layzehfoo


    corktina, it's a matter of respect. I don't demand it, but still, a simple "what about the LUAS?" would have made the exact same point and not sounded nasty.

    dowlingm, I'm sure there's some heavy limitations that the viaduct would impose, that only a high-speed link on a new line (like what was thought of on my gauge standardisation thread) could address. Still, the viaduct is a massive asthetic to the town of Drogheda, and any visible changes to it I'm sure would be resisted by the townsfolk.

    Definitely with you on the passing loops and the upgraded alignment, but as for stops in the middle of "no-where", I'm not with you. Loughrea is not too far down the road from Craughwell on a very good road, for one, and Ardrahan is also on a main road to/from the city (OK, less of an argument for Ardrahan, but it'd be better served than, say, Attymon or Kilcoole).

    Question: What is the consensus of the regulars of the currently open section? Do you wish it closed, curtailed, kept or expanded?


  • #996
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Loughrea is not too far down the road from Craughwell on a very good road
    Drive from Loughrea to get a train to Galway via Athenry? Why not just get the bus - 35 minutes?

    As for your question - I wouldn't close the WRC - the time for that decision was before it had a sleeper laid. Now it should be sweated.

    Job 1 for me would be a passing loop at Oranmore, a passing loop at Sixmilebridge and a station at Oranmore.

    Job 2: recast the schedule with the extra path combinations and hopefully eliminating the 25 minute Ennis hold in the mornings northbound. Ardrahan and Craughwell get two services northbound in the morning, two southbound in the evening just like Attymon.

    Job 3: find a way to get a sixth service out of Galway, either direct or as a connection at Athenry, so the last train out of Galway leaves after 1800.

    Job 4: hopefully enough cash can be scraped together to add a Longpavement station for LIT/Thomond Park, and maybe a Renmore station too - but with LIT and GMIT fronting for a bus shuttle and in Limerick's case the local regeneration agency too (for CCTV and the Army Ranger Wing :eek:).


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  • #997
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Layzehfoo wrote: »
    corktina, it's a matter of respect. I don't demand it, but still, a simple "what about the LUAS?" would have made the exact same point and not sounded nasty.

    ?


    If you want to come on here and make statements that are not accuarate then you must expect to be taken up on it....it wasn't nasty, sarcastic a touch maybe.

    A lot of the people on here are very knowledgable about railways as you will learn and there isn't one of them Anti-Railway. I don't speak for anyone else but for myself I abhor the waste of resources in the way this line has been re-opened...doomed to fail. I'd support re-opening any line where a sound business case can be made and where it is done in a sensible manner, but to open a line like this with a station at every crossroads (and more to come) is sheer lunacy. Had the route been slightly tweaked with a cut off at Athenry (which looks straightforward enough as far as I can see) with stops at Gort and Oranmore only, then it would have been possibly viable, but no, the Vested Interests wanted a line from Limerick to Sligo, not a line to Galway and every village wanted its station back like in the good old days. So what is there now is a re-creation of the old line, which never prospered and which never will.
    I'm waiting for accuate figures about usage now that the novelty has warn off.


  • #998
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    corktina,

    Sorry but I have to disagree. You yourself may not be one of them, but there are people who are prejudiced against the Limerick-Galway line just because they're sour about the lack of improvements on the rest of the network. The shortcomings of Ennis-Athenry, however much they may genuinely exist, are nevertheless blown out of proportion and used by people to justify their prejudice.

    Also some people seem to feel that it is necessary to decry Ennis-Athenry in order to oppose railway to Sligo! I think it unlikely there would be as much opposition to the southern WRC were it not for West-on-Track and the lobbying for northern WRC. I consider this reactionary behaviour unnecessary and detrimental - it is most unlikely that any action will be taken on northern WRC and the efforts in opposing it could be better used elsewhere in positive lobbying for e.g. improvements across the board in terms of work practices, reliability, planning, maintanance and journey times.


  • #999
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Yes I can see your points Zoney! I think you're right about nothing is going of happen north of Athenry, which is not going to please WOT, but the seemingly positive news re N17/18 Gort Athenry Tuam has effectively killed it off. Re the Ennis Limerick line, sure it could be improved in fact the 60 million that has been touted around as the figure for the Athenry Tuam line would be better spent on the southern branch line to at least make a better job of it:

    Some passing points and cut the existing Athenry station out completely with a link line just south west of the town to tie in with the Dublin line - probably around the area of Rathmorrisey, build a new Athenry Station just west of the town at the junction of the southern WRC branch line and the Dublin line, and double track into Galway from there. Also make this a small bus station linked with the M6 and M17/18. The writer, layzehfoo above asked what would we regular writers do - well that's my tuppence worth.

    BTW I feel layzehfoo may be trolling to draw this thread into further animosity etc, my advice Corktina is ignore the bait. She who must be obeyed will only come in and close the thread again otherwise.


  • #1000
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    I just wanted to have the 1000th post of this thread - congrats DW sadly missed.


  • #1001
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    thanks for the support but I feel layzehfoo is entitled to his/her opinion even if he /she does misinterpret my mischeivious posts and I welcome his/her further contributions to this thread. Its better to have an opinion rather than be apathetic.

    To answer his her quetion properley in case Ive not made it clear, I'd go along with Westtip that now that we've got the line, more investment is needed to make it really worthwhile. That I suppose is unlikley to happen and there are many more lines crying out for more investment too.

    My view is that IE should concentrate on whats its good at (is that the right word?:rolleyes:) ie commuter and InterCity services.


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