Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

markpb wrote: »

People won't use it unless it provides some advantage over the other options open to them.

You are quite right but then ask yourself What people? there simply aren't enough people making this commuter journey (into the city centres of either Galway or Limerick) to justify the whole thing. It all comes back to the fundamental issue of demographics, high speed rail lines city centre to city centre can only be justified with enough people to support them and then there is the demand for use of the track from 6.00 am until 11.30 pm - this track is under utilised because there aren't enough people to utilise it in daylight hours. On top of that the lack of people we have in the west who are actually prepared to use the bad service that has been created will mean the death knell of phases 2 and 3 of the WRC, I just wish the politicians were honest enough to say - this project is a waste of resources (for the west and for the country) let's draw a line in the sand and say so - we need rail investment where it is actually needed - and to improve the intercity services we have. Now with public finances as they are - we all know there is no money to further "improve" the white elephant that has been delivered and we also know there is no money to do the ill fated (and not needed) phases 2 and 3 to Tuam and Claremorris.

T Corolla wrote: »

but it will be 106million euros of waste if the passenger numbers fall off. I would like to see a journey time of 1hr 10min to 1hr 20min on this line in a 5yr time frame this can be achieved.

Mate it is just one of the many things upon which money was wasted in the bad years of government we had in the wasted tiger, the problem is not only the capital waste but the ongoing subvention waste - how much would we have got for our 106 million if it had been invested in a bus and integrated rural bus transport policy for the west - and if the ongoing subvention of this line which is used by very few people was used as part of the ongoing subvention of an integrated transport policy in the west centred on providing an excellent bus service. This is what gets my goat - this project adds very little value to the entire public transport policy of the west and adds very little in meaningful transport infrastructure because it delivers such a poor service serving so few people.

T Corolla

You are right the population density is not there. If we come back to this senario in 5-10yrs time will we say the same thing hopefully it will be a better enconmic time population density could increase in that time and bring it nearer to a justifable project. Could Would Should are variables are do'nt yield results. I agree the line is the most basic infrastructure for its investment size but like every other rail line it has to start somewhere and this is its infancy.
The line north of Galway according to WRC website is coming up for funding decision in September whether its sucessful is another story but we need to believe that the current line can be sucessful and if that means introduction of freight services onto the line so be it going back in time when the Dublin-Cork line had lesser services it carried commodities to justify its running costs. One final point is that when rail services are poor in this country it was a combination of patronage and managerial vision that improves services. Limerick to Galway may not have the population density so it needs to be promoted to the tourist market to bump up patronage

westtip

T Corolla wrote: »

You are right the population density is not there. If we come back to this senario in 5-10yrs time will we say the same thing hopefully it will be a better enconmic time population density could increase in that time and bring it nearer to a justifable project. Could Would Should are variables are do'nt yield results. I agree the line is the most basic infrastructure for its investment size but like every other rail line it has to start somewhere and this is its infancy.
The line north of Galway according to WRC website is coming up for funding decision in September whether its sucessful is another story but we need to believe that the current line can be sucessful and if that means introduction of freight services onto the line so be it going back in time when the Dublin-Cork line had lesser services it carried commodities to justify its running costs. One final point is that when rail services are poor in this country it was a combination of patronage and managerial vision that improves services. Limerick to Galway may not have the population density so it needs to be promoted to the tourist market to bump up patronage

What? On what basis can you see the population increasing, its not just about density of population its about lack of people. Regarding the line starting somewhere - you are forgetting the fact, this is not a "new line" its a new version of an old line closed down 30 years ago. It is just fantasy world to say promote it to tourists - what for two months of the year - you don't build new rail lines (on old routes) to accomodate tourists they have to have a real reason for them now, you don't build new rail lines in the hope things will get better in ten years time. It will come as no surprise if the north of Ahenry section is axed in September as part of the cutbacks - the only chance WOT have of holding onto this dream is the greens force it through - now that would be ironic considering the greens standings in the polls in the west of ireland!.

DWCommuter

I have to admit, I'm stunned by the continued bull**** on this thread........actually wait! Ive changed my mind about posting. Whats the frigging point.

Transportuser09

T Corolla wrote: »

You are right the population density is not there. If we come back to this senario in 5-10yrs time will we say the same thing hopefully it will be a better enconmic time population density could increase in that time and bring it nearer to a justifable project. Could Would Should are variables are do'nt yield results. I agree the line is the most basic infrastructure for its investment size but like every other rail line it has to start somewhere and this is its infancy.

Good point. I fear it may take a good deal longer than 5-10 years but its a start and provides a foundation to build upon. In an ideal world we would have a more direct route built from new but by using the old alignment we can at least get it going at a realistic cost, its better than nothing. You are right in saying to come back in a few years, its far too early to judge the line's success at this stage.

L1011

T Corolla wrote: »

I see your points and agree that some of the journey times have not improved but the frequency has improved. Dublin-Sligo used to be a journey of 4hrs before the on track 2000 programme now the journey of 3hrs with a train every two hours from 5:45am to 19:00 that is an improvement in anyone books

Only just keeping up with the similar cut in road journey times since 2000 with the M4, Edgesworthstown BP, Dromod/Roosky BP, N4 DC extension in Sligo, etc.

Rail needs to be *beating* road journey times not just matching.

Judgement Day

Just noticed that both this thread and the Waterford/Rosslare thread landed on the dreaded 6 6 6 number of posts today - bizarre or what?

T Corolla

MYOB wrote: »

Only just keeping up with the similar cut in road journey times since 2000 with the M4, Edgesworthstown BP, Dromod/Roosky BP, N4 DC extension in Sligo, etc.

Rail needs to be *beating* road journey times not just matching.

That is true but at the moment its matching the road time. The Dublin-Sligo line has a problem with population outside of Longford as many of the towns have population less than 5,000 and Irish Rail are not getting the passengers numbers to justify investment in the line west of Longford. On the other hand like most other rail lines there seems to be speed restrictions on it due to curved rail path or poor land conditions that need to be addressed to speed up the service by say 20mins which again is an improvement. One final point I'd like to make is that the services on all lines are getting better and for a country with such a desperced population we seems to have a better system than that of most countries where services are privatised

invinciblePRSTV

T Corolla wrote: »

You are right the population density is not there. If we come back to this senario in 5-10yrs time will we say the same thing hopefully it will be a better enconmic time population density could increase in that time and bring it nearer to a justifable project. Could Would Should are variables are do'nt yield results. I agree the line is the most basic infrastructure for its investment size but like every other rail line it has to start somewhere and this is its infancy.

We've just had two decades of economic and population growth, the problem is in the West they don 't do planning so even if the economy blossoms again and population starts increasing exponentially you can be sure it'll be far away from the WRC tracks.

T Corolla wrote: »

The line north of Galway according to WRC website is coming up for funding decision in September whether its sucessful is another story but we need to believe that the current line can be sucessful and if that means introduction of freight services onto the line so be it going back in time when the Dublin-Cork line had lesser services it carried commodities to justify its running costs.

It would be an absolute travesty if the WRC got funding to proceed with phase 2 when dozens of far more worthy public transport & road projects have been axed.

T Corolla wrote: »

One final point is that when rail services are poor in this country it was a combination of patronage and managerial vision that improves services. Limerick to Galway may not have the population density so it needs to be promoted to the tourist market to bump up patronage

I'm from a major tourist town. Most tourists, bar students, use rental cars when travelling around Ireland. The M17/18 projects are far more critical to the west when it comes to bringing tourists in.

westtip

MYOB wrote: »

Only just keeping up with the similar cut in road journey times since 2000 with the M4, Edgesworthstown BP, Dromod/Roosky BP, N4 DC extension in Sligo, etc.

Rail needs to be *beating* road journey times not just matching.

And the car journey times are now door to door......

nijel

if you build it they will come... the business and comuters that is.
however the only thing stopping a good reliable service is the high prices. 40 odd euro for return ballina to dublin compared to 20 for the bus, they need to be more competitive to survive! either way it would be no harm to bring the railway through claremorris to ballina to sligo? it would make more sence than going through tobacurrry. only 60km of new line would be needed. compared to a 80km upgrade through a lower density area...

foggy_lad

T Corolla wrote: »

I see your points and agree that some of the journey times have not improved but the frequency has improved. Dublin-Sligo used to be a journey of 4hrs before the on track 2000 programme now the journey of 3hrs with a train every two hours from 5:45am to 19:00 that is an improvement in anyone books. Dublin-Cork was 2 hrs 30 min pre 2000 now is it 2hrs 50 min but there is a hourly service in place since 2006 thats an improvement. Limerick-Galway needs more work I agree but it will be 106million euros of waste if the passenger numbers fall off. I would like to see a journey time of 1hr 10min to 1hr 20min on this line in a 5yr time frame this can be achieved. There is as much argument for the no hope side as there is for hope. I would call on Irish rail to introduce the 10 euro day return fare on this line as it did on all main lines into Dublin. Prior to this the fares were expensive to say the least but its introduction has transformed into footfall and into revenue. Online booking fares would also be an enormus aid to this line which will come in time as it has to all other lines

dublin to cork was quoted as being 2hours 50 minutes but it is rarely under three hours from my experiences and even then it does not deliver the customer into the center of either dublin or cork!

other rail stations are even further outside towns they serve like Mostrim or Edgeworthstown as it is now referred to by irish rail which is not in edgeworthstown at all, several other stations are far outside the towns and cities they serve so you must add travel time on to the train times and also add taxi or bus/luas fares on to the massively expensive train fares! all this ensures that train times in ireland will NEVER match car and in some cases bus times and will always be too expensive for the majority of the travelling public!

in these recessionary times the train is not going to be a choice for the majority of people and will end up being an expensive train set solely for the use of the rich and employees of the company!

T Corolla wrote: »

That is true but at the moment its matching the road time. The Dublin-Sligo line has a problem with population outside of Longford as many of the towns have population less than 5,000 and Irish Rail are not getting the passengers numbers to justify investment in the line west of Longford. On the other hand like most other rail lines there seems to be speed restrictions on it due to curved rail path or poor land conditions that need to be addressed to speed up the service by say 20mins which again is an improvement. One final point I'd like to make is that the services on all lines are getting better and for a country with such a desperced population we seems to have a better system than that of most countries where services are privatised

T Corolla wrote: »

You are right the population density is not there. If we come back to this senario in 5-10yrs time will we say the same thing hopefully it will be a better enconmic time population density could increase in that time and bring it nearer to a justifable project. Could Would Should are variables are do'nt yield results. I agree the line is the most basic infrastructure for its investment size but like every other rail line it has to start somewhere and this is its infancy.
The line north of Galway according to WRC website is coming up for funding decision in September whether its sucessful is another story but we need to believe that the current line can be sucessful and if that means introduction of freight services onto the line so be it going back in time when the Dublin-Cork line had lesser services it carried commodities to justify its running costs. One final point is that when rail services are poor in this country it was a combination of patronage and managerial vision that improves services. Limerick to Galway may not have the population density so it needs to be promoted to the tourist market to bump up patronage

population density is unlikely to increase in these areas for another 20 years at least as was experienced during and after the early eighties all along the west coast. anyone remember when bus eireann had daily busses from sligo donegal and mayo heading to london manchester liverpool etc and how long it took for these areas to be repopulated after the celtic tiger started to roar once again

so are the taxpayers expected to cover an expensive waste for the next 20-30 years in the hope that this line will someday pay for itself?

T Corolla

Some very good points given and I will take them on board but how much of a road could you build for the cost of the state aid that will be given to Irish Rail for running this service. The latest figure I heard was 3 million(correct me if I'm wrong) you will not build much roads for that, but if your try and open up the railway line to different markets you are bound to draw in patronage. One other point mentioned was rental car. I agree with the thread that it is much more convenient that a rail service hands down. The point I am trying to make is that with a bit of hardwork on the side of Irish Rail/Bord Failte and local business the Galway-Limerick line can become less of a burden to the state. There is no rail/bus service apart from private companys making a profit and all of these services need state aid. Bus Eireann recieved something in the region of 900 million last year in state aid correct me if I'm wrong

T Corolla

nijel wrote: »

if you build it they will come... the business and comuters that is.
however the only thing stopping a good reliable service is the high prices. 40 odd euro for return ballina to dublin compared to 20 for the bus, they need to be more competitive to survive! either way it would be no harm to bring the railway through claremorris to ballina to sligo? it would make more sence than going through tobacurrry. only 60km of new line would be needed. compared to a 80km upgrade through a lower density area...

This is an excellent point and hopefully with the introduction of web based fares this will be reduced. I dream of the line going all the way to Clairemorris but I cant see it happening unless the population of Clairemorris becomes the same as Sligo.

corktina

nijel wrote: »

if you build it they will come... the business and comuters that is.
however the only thing stopping a good reliable service is the high prices. 40 odd euro for return ballina to dublin compared to 20 for the bus, they need to be more competitive to survive! either way it would be no harm to bring the railway through claremorris to ballina to sligo? it would make more sence than going through tobacurrry. only 60km of new line would be needed. compared to a 80km upgrade through a lower density area...

anyone going to bother to reply to this one? :rolleyes:

T Corolla

The only way it will be justified if Sligo population grows to the same as that of Galway probably in the 22nd centuary.

nijel

corktina wrote: »

anyone going to bother to reply to this one? :rolleyes:

ok i know i am biased as i live in ballina:D but which would you rather go on a train through:P claremorris to ...

kiltamagh swinford charlestown (knock airport) tobecurry collooney sligo
... or
manulla foxford ballina enniscrone dramore west ballisodare sligo

nijel

"Galway probably in the 22nd centuary"

but how can sligo become a City like galway if it doesnt have the infrustructure... its a bad cycle

invinciblePRSTV

corktina wrote: »

anyone going to bother to reply to this one? :rolleyes:

S/he is only a kid Corktina lad leave 'em alone.

T Corolla

nijel wrote: »

"Galway probably in the 22nd centuary"

but how can sligo become a City like galway if it doesnt have the infrustructure... its a bad cycle

By getting all the people in the county to live in the town and get jobs in Galway. There is not case for a line from Sligo to Galway and never will be. If there was a better bus service provided that would be more benefical. I would love to see the line from Collooney to Clairemorris turned into a cycle/walkway path as it would be of more benefit to the counties in which it passes through. In fairness the Limerick-Galway line needs an improved service(40mph is a non runner) as it stands and more people living in the towns between them.

nijel

ok ye are taking this extremely seriously (and i am 19 year old male not really a kid anymore;)) honestly i do know a railway would not work, but cant we dream? I like the walk way idea:cool:

T Corolla

nijel wrote: »

ok ye are taking this extremely seriously (and i am 19 year old male not really a kid anymore;)) honestly i do know a railway would not work, but cant we dream? I like the walk way idea:cool:

This is the type of ambition we need to harness

corktina

nijel wrote: »

ok ye are taking this extremely seriously (and i am 19 year old male not really a kid anymore;)) honestly i do know a railway would not work, but cant we dream? I like the walk way idea:cool:

no prob dream away but remember it would be YOUR taxes paying for such a pipe dream and you'll already be paying enough for such follies as the southern bit already re-opened....you wouldnt spend your own money so foolishly if it came out of your pocket in cash so why support the fools who would have us all pay out for this folly of a corridor which buses would service quicker, more frequently and cheaper...and would actually go through the places the railway pretends to....

Godge

corktina wrote: »

no prob dream away but remember it would be YOUR taxes paying for such a pipe dream and you'll already be paying enough for such follies as the southern bit already re-opened....you wouldnt spend your own money so foolishly if it came out of your pocket in cash so why support the fools who would have us all pay out for this folly of a corridor which buses would service quicker, more frequently and cheaper...and would actually go through the places the railway pretends to....

+1

DWCommuter

corktina wrote: »

no prob dream away but remember it would be YOUR taxes paying for such a pipe dream and you'll already be paying enough for such follies as the southern bit already re-opened....you wouldnt spend your own money so foolishly if it came out of your pocket in cash so why support the fools who would have us all pay out for this folly of a corridor which buses would service quicker, more frequently and cheaper...and would actually go through the places the railway pretends to....

Great point, but in fairness the lad is 19 and obviously not up to speed on the economic side of things. At that age, it's all about how great the world is or can be. I can still just about remember it.:D

corktina

my own lad is twenty and just started a part time job and moaned to me that all his money was going on petrol and food.... economic reality sets in about that age!

DWCommuter

corktina wrote: »

my own lad is twenty and just started a part time job and moaned to me that all his money was going on petrol and food.... economic reality sets in about that age!

Only if they are working. Quite a few are still pampered by Mammy and Daddy.:D

corktina

DWCommuter wrote: »

Only if they are working. Quite a few are still pampered by Mammy and Daddy.:D

tell me about it...still got three of them....

westtip

DWCommuter wrote: »

I have to admit, I'm stunned by the continued bull**** on this thread........actually wait! Ive changed my mind about posting. Whats the frigging point.

+1 Dw just scrolled through the last few pages and really, like you I can't see the point anymore. Just when are the folks arguing for the continuing folly of the line from Athenry to Clarmorriss and the illusionary belief that somehow a line from Claremorris to collooney may even be on the agenda going to wake up and smell the roses:

Never mind all the rationale arguments that have been written in their thousands of words on this thread and its historic predecessor against the folly of a policy to re-open this line.

Those of us who hae argued against it have been pilloried as "anti west of Ireland" actually I see the abondonment of this project as being pro-west of ireland and being pro-rail - because the money shoud have been spent on improving the network we have. However, the stark reality is summed up in the three words below and these three words spell its death knell. The Western Rail Corridor phase 2 and 3 will I have absolutlely no doubt be put well and truly to the back of the queue, in September by this government and the liklihood is by the next one as well.

In other words, Forget it. It is a non starter for any further capital spending north of Athenry and south of Athenry to try and fix the job they have created.

In three words folks - the truth as we all know it, and this is the reality so please don't tell me its the high priority the west needs etc . This is WOT we have to face up to:


We are broke.

corktina

with you all the way there...lets plough up the trackbed and sell it(give it away) to whoever will take it. Put the money saved (if we actually have any of it) into increasing capaicity nearer the capital where it might benefit a lot of the population.