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Petrol €132.9 Diesel €123.9

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    #122
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    P.C. wrote: »
    So, you do agree that it is not a monopoly.

    And if you don't, then you have to agree that the supply of electricity is also a monopoly, as there are only three companies that I know of that sell electricity in Ireland.
    I don't agree with you, no.


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    #123
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Add in other fuel suppliers like Topaz and Maxol and you're at a near-monopoly.

    Firms which compete visciously on price do not make a "monopoly". You might want to look up what the word means before throwing it around.


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    #124
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    snaps wrote: »

    Hopefully Northern Irish companies will start delivering south (Im sure they can as they are in the EU)

    They can't*. Tax is at point of final delivery to consumerwhich, for home heating oil, is your house.

    *well, they can but they need to charge Irish taxes.

    And is home heating oil any cheaper in the North to begin with?


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    #125
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote: »
    Firms which compete visciously on price do not make a "monopoly". You might want to look up what the word means before throwing it around.

    I know well what monopoly means. Do you know what condescending tool means?


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    #126
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    I know well what monopoly means. Do you know what condescending tool means?

    Clearly you don't, or else you'd not be using it to describe something thats not one.

    I also know what generally classes as personal insults on boards.


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    #127
    Gary ITR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,805 ✭✭✭✭Gary ITR


    can we have less of the personal attacks please. Thanks


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    #128
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote: »
    Clearly you don't, or else you'd not be using it to describe something thats not one.
    Clearly I do. I could have use oligopoly which would have made the pedants happy but confused the younger readers.


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    #129
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Clearly I do. I could have use oligopoly which would have made the pedants happy but confused the younger readers.

    Which is still wrong, as there are a very large number of retailers.

    Within a one town range of my house, I can get fuel off Topaz, Tesco, Maxol (three franchisers), Esso (two stations, as far as I can tell one is Esso Ireland and one franchise), Toughers, a privateer branded as Mace, Texaco, Applegreen... does that look like the "small number of players" required for an oligopoly? No. Not to anyone else it doesn't.
    edit: and another Esso come to think of it, not got a clue if its O&O or franchise

    That there is cut-throat price competition in the market further disproves your assertion.


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    #130
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,391 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Competition my arse. On any given day in Newbrdge the price difference between 6 petrol stations is 1 cent. Strange that all of them run out of stock on the same day every time and adjust price to account for this at the same time every time.


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    #131
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Competition my arse. On any given day in Newbrdge the price difference between 6 petrol stations is 1 cent. Strange that all of them run out of stock on the same day every time and adjust price to account for this at the same time every time.

    Wholesale prices go up at the same time for all of them and they need to be able to cover the cost of replacing the fuel they're selling - this is why prices rise almost simultaneously. The profit margins they have to play with only allow pricing differences of 1-2c.

    There is feck all money to be made in selling fuel yet there are countless people on here who believe that every station owner sleeps in a bed made of shiney 2 euro coins. Realistically for most the forecourt is a method of drawing in shop/deli traffic these days, notice how the newer the station the bigger the car parking area?


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    #132
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    Cut-throat me hole.

    Firstly: The price differences in the petrol/diesel market is so small that there is no real competition. CA has said as much.

    Secondly: Motor fuel market has no competiton. Petrol or diesel (ok pedants there's E85 and biodeisel) or nothing. Collectively the aforementioned comprise a virtual monopoly on the fuel market.

    Introduce competition into fuel market and you will have real competition. When I can travel the same distance for a quarter the price I currently can (as the ESB expects) that's when the competition starts.


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    #133
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »

    Firstly: The price differences in the petrol/diesel market is so small that there is no real competition. CA has said as much

    What are you expecting the price differences to be on a product that has a razor thin price margin on it?

    There is no monopoly in fuel *retailing* which is what this entire argument is about.


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    #134
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote: »
    What are you expecting the price differences to be on a product that has a razor thin price margin on it?

    Always amazes me how petrol stations still haven't heard of loss leaders.


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    #135
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Always amazes me how petrol stations still haven't heard of loss leaders.

    Some of them have. However, its not like someone is going to do their weeks shopping in a convenience store now are they?


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    #136
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote: »
    Some of them have. However, its not like someone is going to do their weeks shopping in a convenience store now are they?

    Jeez, do you work for a petrol retailer or something. Ever heard of Tesco? There's one right near you.


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    #137
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Jeez, do you work for a petrol retailer or something. Ever heard of Tesco? There's one right near you.

    I'm related to one as I've admitted on here before.

    Tesco don't sell their fuel below cost. Also, the vast majority of fuel retailers have a convenience store NOT a supermarket. They don't have the range of products and other pull factors that'd make fuel a suitable loss leader.

    Selling it at microscopic margins to get trade in is as close to a loss leader you're going to get. It ensures they don't end up losing their shirt on fuelcard business (most fuelcard users don't buy anything and usually buy large volumes) and people who get 20 litres, a pack of smokes, phone credit and a lotto ticket on a credit card (all tiny margins, eaten up by the credit card fee).


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    #138
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote: »
    Tesco don't sell their fuel below cost.

    Didn't read the past this. QED.


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    #139
    Macca3000
    Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭Macca3000


    The spike in prices hasn't really got that much attention in the media. There was a piece in the business section of the Indo this week but that was all I've seen or heard. Last time prices got this high it was all over the place.

    Sign of the times maybe. Have we just given in and decided to accept it:(


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    #140
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Didn't read the past this. QED.

    Because you refuse to accept the truth?

    If every station within a two mile radius is able to MATCH Tesco on price, they're not selling below cost. Applegreen Celbridge is usually .1 or 1.1c cheaper than Tesco Maynooth. Theres your "QED".

    You have serious, serious hangups over this. Fuel retailers are not out to get you. Just accept it - you'll have a happier life if you don't live with this idea that you're being ripped off at every turn when, quite blatantly, your not.

    However, if you want to live in the land of paranoia by all means do. Just don't continue to spread it.


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    #141
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    MYOB wrote:
    every station within a two mile radius is able to MATCH Tesco on price,
    You're saying they're effectively operating as a cartel, as Tesco able to sell much cheaper at other locations. QED again is right.


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    #142
    stealthyspeeder
    Registered Users Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭stealthyspeeder


    There is so much more to to the price of petrol than greedy petrol station owners, there was a thread not long ago where I mentioned some of the points, I couldnt be bothered finding it or repeating myself.

    But if you believe the prices are being inflicted on you primarily due to the natuaral profit maximisation behaviour of the station owners, you are incorrect almost to the point of ignorance.


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    #143
    zielarz
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭zielarz


    I always find it astonishing when people complain about 1% petrol station margins and say nothing about 60% goverment part...


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    #144
    91011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭91011


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Competition my arse. On any given day in Newbrdge the price difference between 6 petrol stations is 1 cent. Strange that all of them run out of stock on the same day every time and adjust price to account for this at the same time every time.

    Maybe its because Newbridge constantly comes out as the lowest price in the country due to the phenomenal competition there. And due to the miniscule margins the stations in newbridge operate on, each extra cent added to wholesale cost has to get added immedaitely to retail cost.

    Also, on average a busy staion will get 3 deliveries of fuel per week.

    As for buying heating oil from Northern ireland - even if it was possible would offer no savings when higher vat rate is taken into account. Current price for delivery to Banbridge is £490 (Boilerjuice.com) - about €550. Current price from Emo Oil for delivery to Kildare is €578 www.emo.ie

    UK VAT = 5%, Irish VAT 13.5%

    Working it out ex vat it shows that Emo are operating on a 2% lower margin than the northern Ireland company.

    As for Petrol / Diesel. Curently petrol is same price in UK as Ireland and diesel is about 12 c more expensive in the UK. - And then next weeks UK budget... expect price rises in the UK.


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    #145
    91011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭91011


    stealthyspeeder wrote: »
    There is so much more to to the price of petrol than greedy petrol station owners, there was a thread not long ago where I mentioned some of the points, I couldnt be bothered finding it or repeating myself.

    But if you believe the prices are being inflicted on you primarily due to the natuaral profit maximisation behaviour of the station owners, you are incorrect almost to the point of ignorance.


    This link will explain full breakdown based on current average prices in Ireland http://www.pumps.ie/pricesExplained.php


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    #146
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Tesco Maynooth seem to be one of the better options for those in the Lucan/Maynooth/Celbridge/Leixlip areas at the moment.......


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    #147
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Tesco Maynooth seem to be one of the better options for those in the Lucan/Maynooth/Celbridge/Leixlip areas at the moment.......

    They're all within 1c of each other.

    Tesco in Dundrum is 4c cheaper than Tesco in Maynooth.


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    #148
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    You're saying they're effectively operating as a cartel, as Tesco able to sell much cheaper at other locations. QED again is right.

    Tesco doesn't sell much cheaper at other locations.

    Localised competition != cartel. The competition authority has already looked in to this and found that there is no anti-competitive behaviour.

    Prices being similar locally also has other factors such as the cost of delivery - its more expensive to get fuel hauled to Connemara than it is a few miles from the depot, land values - rent/mortgages on sites, council rates.

    And anyway, if you had the only shop for ten miles you're not going to match Lidl prices but if you've got twenty other ones including two Lidls nearby, you are. Same thing in fuel retailing.

    You appear to be obsessed with finding some way to "prove" that station owners are in cahoots. They aren't. Give up.


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    #149
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    JHMEG wrote: »
    They're all within 1c of each other.

    Tesco in Dundrum is 4c cheaper than Tesco in Maynooth.


    Today. Almost certainly won't be tomorrow.


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    #150
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    JHMEG wrote: »
    They're all within 1c of each other.

    Tesco in Dundrum is 4c cheaper than Tesco in Maynooth.

    112.9 for diesel?
    That must be one of the cheapest in the whole country!
    I've no need to go to Dundrum- but if I had- I'd be filling up my 30ltr cans as well as the car.......


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    #151
    Bandara
    Registered Users Posts: 3,282 ✭✭✭Bandara


    It shows a complete lack of knowledge to suggest that local prcing is in some
    way influenced by a 'cartel'

    I have stations in very very competitive locations, I hate my competition, I hope they go bust. I NEVER speak to them either personally or professionally and I would never consider doing anything to assist them in any way whatsoever

    It's the same for all (and I know a lot) the station owner/operators I know. Also I cannot begin to describe the viciousness and level of competition between the major fuel companies. They would do anything to F**k each other up.

    2 weekends ago I sold fuel 3 cents below cost just to mess up the opening day of a new station near me. It cost the fuel company about 6 grand to do it. And they were delighted.

    If you reall think we all ring each other and compare and fix prices you are living in la-la land. There is a station less than 400m from a site I have, in 6 years I have never spoken to or acknowledged the guy than runs it, nor him me.

    It's complete war.

    I have direct experience in a lot of other industries and nothing comes close to the competition within the fuel business. The resturant trade is a crèche compared to it.


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