The "I should have left the credit card at home" thread

Lumen · 28-07-2009 02:55PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Just curious - do you have to go back on the hoods/drops to change gear/brake. If so, what do you lose in terms of aero benefit each time that you have to do this?

Proper aerobars are used with bar-end shifters.

Generally you would only brake if you're trying to slow down.

blorg · 28-07-2009 03:06PM

If you have clip-ons it is a bit of a hassle moving over to shift (and you will probably want to shift frequently enough) but you get pretty adept at it. Generally you just pop your right hand over quickly and do it on the hoods. You won't need to shift the other side. I can certainly appreciate how nice it would be to have the shifter right on the end of the bars.

I don't think I braked at all on the club 25 which is the same course we are doing Monday- I did have to get off the aerobars down into the drops to go around the roundabout halfway though. That would have been the only point I stopped pedalling I think. There are time trials where you might have to brake, if a descent and sharp corner is involved.

The bars I have I borrowed from Daymobrew- they are probably short enough as it is but I think I may get slightly shorter ones (stubbies?) so I can keep my saddle position the same- I am not sure it is a great idea moving that forward, putting me in a different position to the one I do most of my cycling in. I find them very comfortable BTW, I didn't get out of them at all for the TT and did 150km mostly on them last Saturday no problems.

Lumen · 28-07-2009 03:17PM

blorg wrote: »

The bars I have I borrowed from Daymobrew- they are probably short enough as it is but I think I may get slightly shorter ones (stubbies?) so I can keep my saddle position the same- I am not sure it is a great idea moving that forward, putting me in a different position to the one I do most of my cycling in.

You probably don't need stubbies but properly fitted aerobars.

On Steve Hogg's bike fit video he uses the Profile Stryke's to demonstrate fitting for a non-triathlete, i.e. someone who doesn't always train and race on aerobars and therefore ought to maintain their normal seating position.

ROK ON · 28-07-2009 03:25PM

blorg wrote: »

If you have clip-ons it is a bit of a hassle moving over to shift (and you will probably want to shift frequently enough) but you get pretty adept at it. Generally you just pop your right hand over quickly and do it on the hoods. You won't need to shift the other side. I can certainly appreciate how nice it would be to have the shifter right on the end of the bars.

I don't think I braked at all on the club 25 which is the same course we are doing Monday- I did have to get off the aerobars down into the drops to go around the roundabout halfway though. That would have been the only point I stopped pedalling I think. There are time trials where you might have to brake, if a descent and sharp corner is involved.

The bars I have I borrowed from Daymobrew- they are probably short enough as it is but I think I may get slightly shorter ones (stubbies?) so I can keep my saddle position the same- I am not sure it is a great idea moving that forward, putting me in a different position to the one I do most of my cycling in. I find them very comfortable BTW, I didn't get out of them at all for the TT and did 150km mostly on them last Saturday no problems.

BTW, what was your time in the club TT?

ROK ON · 05-08-2009 08:02AM

Giro D'Italia 2009 Overall/Pink Bib Shorts (TwistGel Insert)

niceonetom · 05-08-2009 08:09AM

Did you win the Giro?

Lumen · 05-08-2009 08:10AM

ROK_ON, I think the flag on the leg technically constitutes a failure according the spirit of Rule 17 (ii), but a greater concern is - what jersey will you wear with them?

Also, you'll probably need a "sack and crack" if you're planning to wear these in the wet.

ROK ON · 05-08-2009 08:38AM

@Niceone - didnt win the Giro, but I work for an Italian firm - does that count. It feels that every day I work with them that I am winning somethng!!!
@Lumen, I actually have the matching Giro leaders jersey.

blorg · 05-08-2009 09:40AM

ROK ON wrote: »

BTW, what was your time in the club TT?

1:06:25 in the club TT, on my Litespeed with aero bars- not great but enough to win my group (very bad conditions and turnout was low.)

1:03:53 in the Boards TT, same course in better conditions on my fixed Giant Bowery with aero bars.

Raam · 05-08-2009 09:43AM

blorg wrote: »

1:06:25 in the club TT, on my Litespeed with aero bars- not great but enough to win my group (very bad conditions and turnout was low.)

1:03:53 in the Boards TT, same course in better conditions on my fixed Giant Bowery with aero bars.

What was the wind like for both?

blorg · 05-08-2009 09:52AM

Raam wrote: »

What was the wind like for both?

Headwind both ways

Seriously, I think it was like that for the first one, it changed at some point out on the course. The second one it was a strong enough cross wind. I paced myself better on the Boards one, found it substantially easier and lower average HR despite going faster. I think I could pace myself better yet though.

Lumen · 05-08-2009 09:58AM

blorg wrote: »

I paced myself better on the Boards one, found it substantially easier and lower average HR despite going faster. I think I could pace myself better yet though.

What was your average HR?

On Sat night (dry run) I did 1:11/155bpm/223W. On Monday (boards TT) I did 1:09/168bpm/246W.

I therefore think that every additional 10W is worth a minute but costs 6.5bpm, and I could therefore equal your time if only I could keep my HR at 201bpm.

Diarmuid · 05-08-2009 10:09AM

Lumen wrote: »

I therefore think that every additional 10W is worth a minute but costs 6.5bpm, and I could therefore equal your time if only I could keep my HR at 201bpm.

Do you know your HR @ Lactate Threshold? It's at least 168

Lumen · 05-08-2009 10:20AM

Diarmuid wrote: »

Do you know your HR @ Lactate Threshold? It's at least 168

AFAIK, without blood tests the best way to get threshold is from a 1hr TT. The middle 60min period from my monday TT was 244W/169bpm (although peak 60min was 247W), so my best guess right now is around 250W/170bpm. Must try harder.

Chips Lovell · 05-08-2009 10:21AM

My avg HR for the TT was 185bpm:eek:

Lumen · 05-08-2009 10:26AM

el tonto wrote: »

My avg HR for the TT was 185bpm:eek:

+

=

niceonetom · 05-08-2009 10:28AM

Ok, so were not even pretending to try to stay on topic. Good.

My avg BPM was 176, though I did spend a fair bit of time over 180. Probably a mistake.

So, threshold... I thought the only way to get a good accurate idea of that was through lab testing, but Lumen, you say it can be estimated for a TT? Is it simply the highest HR you can sustain for an hour? or is it more complicated than that?

Lumen · 05-08-2009 10:30AM

niceonetom wrote: »

Is it simply the highest HR you can sustain for an hour?

As I understand it, yes.

Since if you go any higher you'll accumulate lactic acid and be forced to go slower.

ROK ON · 05-08-2009 10:35AM

Lumen wrote: »

As I understand it, yes.

Since if you go any higher you'll accumulate lactic acid and be forced to go slower.

SO, to calculate this, one needs to go as fast as they can, until they actually start slowing down due to LA buildup? SO no matter how fast one is going, push harder to see if you an go faster - is this correct?

If so, I must try it, as I have never ever pushed myself that hard previously. I guess that once you get past the pain, and the endorphins kick in, that it must be fun ( in an S&M sort of way).

niceonetom · 05-08-2009 10:36AM

@tonto

You'll be fine. Probably.

Ok, so it turns out my threshold is about 8 bpm higher than i thought it was, which means I've been going way too easy on myself while training*. Good to know.

*I still feel a bit uncomfortable using that term.

Chips Lovell · 05-08-2009 10:39AM

Lumen wrote: »

+ + =

Heart attacks are for wimps.

EDIT: You should probably replace the booze bit. I'd say I'm probably one of the most abstemious drinkers on here. Stick a cheeseburger in there instead.

Lumen wrote: »

As I understand it, yes.

Since if you go any higher you'll accumulate lactic acid and be forced to go slower.

OK, what does this mean for me, Dr Science? Because I was definitely forced to go slower in the latter half of the TT on Monday. So is my threshold really around 185bpm? Or is it actually lower because I was forced to slow down a bit? Or would it indeed have been higher if I hadn't slowed down? Because it does seem a bit high, given my max HR is 193bpm

Lumen · 05-08-2009 10:59AM

el tonto wrote: »

So is my threshold really around 185bpm? Or is it actually lower because I was forced to slow down a bit? Or would it indeed have been higher if I hadn't slowed down? Because it does seem a bit high, given my max HR is 193bpm

ROK ON wrote: »

SO, to calculate this, one needs to go as fast as they can, until they actually start slowing down due to LA buildup? SO no matter how fast one is going, push harder to see if you an go faster - is this correct?

In a 40km TT, you'll probably have a lowish HR right at the start, and max HR right at the end, but otherwise constant. By using the average HR you get a good idea of your threshold, but you could always take the average from the middle bit if your TT lasts over an hour.

If your HR is jumpy you need to work on keeping the effort more steady. I reset the lap timer on my Garmin after each 10km, which enabled me to keep track average power (you could use HR) over that sector and thus stay focused on a short term goal. As it turns out I probably could have gone a bit harder, but I figured that undershooting would encourage me to try harder next time, whereas overshooting would result in suffering and TT-aversion syndrome.

With a bit of practice you should get a better understanding of your maximum steady-state effort. Weekly TTs FTW!

edit: Tonto, to your question "So is my threshold really around 185bpm?", the answer is "I don't know - do it again, and properly this time!" :pac:

Chips Lovell · 05-08-2009 11:26AM

Lumen wrote: »

edit: Tonto, to your question "So is my threshold really around 185bpm?", the answer is "I don't know - do it again, and properly this time!" :pac:

Well, it was consistantly over 180bpm, at least any time I looked. So, it wasn't like I started out at 170 and it got steadily higher.

blorg · 05-08-2009 11:27AM

175 average the first time, 170 average on the Boards one. My new max is 204 (reached that in the final uphill sprint in the race I won.) I kept it lower at the start of the Boards TT which I think helped but it was pretty irregular overall and majorly dropped off towards the end. I did the club 10 mile at a 185 average.

FrankGrimes · 05-08-2009 11:46AM

I think another decent way of getting an idea of your threshold is to look at your distribution chart in the Training Peaks WKO+ software (2-week trial here). If you download data for a good few sessions and set the graph to 10 unit increments, you should be able to identify where the biggest drop-off occurs from one bar to the next - that's a reasonable indicator of your threshold over a longer period (i.e. it's the bar before the drop-off).

That'll help to get a feel for whether or not your threshold over a 40km TT was above or below your longer term threshold. E.g. my heart rate monitor was going on and off intermittently on Monday but when it was on it was generally between 160 and 170 bpm and as I was feeling a bit wrecked the legs just couldn't do enough work to keep it at 170bpm. So taking a reading from that would give a threshold that's lower than my real threshold. On ROK I think I averaged 170-175bpm over just under 6 hours and my longer term distribution chart shows that my threshold is around that. So looking at both makes me think on a good day I should be able to sustain 180bpm for an hour and I'll push towards that on next time I do a 40km TT. Just looking at a 40km TT threshold in isolation would only be giving me half that picture.

blorg · 05-08-2009 11:52AM

Here are some HR charts for recent races I've done, any insight or comments much appreciated. Note on the club 25 I went over 180 right at the start, I think this was a bad mistake I paid for later. Kept it down on the Boards one and I think that worked, although I really lost it in the last 10km. Also included the road race I won, 204 at the end of that sprint! Note the end of the club 10 is around where speed peaks, I just didn't stop the computer.

Lumen · 05-08-2009 12:33PM

FrankGrimes wrote: »

On ROK I think I averaged 170-175bpm over just under 6 hours and my longer term distribution chart shows that my threshold is around that.

AFAIK, not even Lance can ride at threshold for six hours. It's just not possible. Either your HRM is faulty or you're underestimating your max HR. IMO those distribution charts are only useful if you're racing.

There is a chart in one of my training books (probably Training and Racing with a Power Meter) indicating what % intensity you can sustain for different length efforts. Anything over 3 hours is well down (something like 70% power, off the top of my head).

FrankGrimes wrote: »

So looking at both makes me think on a good day I should be able to sustain 180bpm for an hour and I'll push towards that on next time I do a 40km TT. Just looking at a 40km TT threshold in isolation would only be giving me half that picture.

I think 180bpm is a good target to aim for.

There is no "40km TT threshold". There's just threshold. Your body doesn't know that you're doing a 40km painfest, it either gets rid of the lactate or it doesn't.

As I understand it the basic physiological (rather than psychological) limitation on continuing to cycle at threshold for over an hour is fuelling - you deplete your glycogen stores then bonk. If you have years of endurance training you can defer this by improved fat burning, but not for long, and there's a limit to what you can take on board energy-wise since AFAIK your digestive system shuts down during intense efforts.

Disclaimer: metabolic processes are a bit complicated, and I don't pretend to understand them in the slightest.

ROK ON · 05-08-2009 12:48PM

Lumen wrote: »

AFAIK, not even Lance can ride at threshold for six hours. It's just not possible. Either your HRM is faulty or you're underestimating your max HR. IMO those distribution charts are only useful if you're racing.

. . .

I think 180bpm is a good target to aim for.

OK, now I am very confused. IIRC, when on spins with you in the past you have often said to me that I am pushing too hard on the climbs, and have asked me what my HR is (usually in the 175-185 range). If I understood you then, I should aim for a lower HR (say 165-170 range), on the basis that it is more sustainable for a long ride with many hills. The burning a mtch concept.
Now you say that 180 is a good target - but for what? Treshold power, or a 40kk TT?
Any spin that I have been on my avg HR is usually 145-155? Does this imply that I am simply not pushing hard enough on the downhill parts of the course?

As an aside, you really are going to have to go back to college to study for PhD. in sports science/physiology. Think about it if Mr Skeff can take a few nixers fixing bikes, I am sure that you could turn a shilling or two dispensing training advice to fat freds like me.
I would willingly open my CREDIT CARD for that. Back on topic again.;)

Nietzschean · 05-08-2009 12:57PM

i think he means 180 for a TT, its not very sustainable all day...though i do find my HR tends to go up on big descents not down...

Diarmuid · 05-08-2009 01:00PM

According to Joe Friel a good way to get you HR @ LT is to warm up very thoroughly, then aim to do an all-out-sufferfest for 30 minutes and get the average HR for the last 20mins. You should have felt that you gave it your all and couldn't have done better. It might take you a few attempts (not on the same day) to get the pacing right though.

You should be able to keep this HR for one hour but it's very difficult and generally only done in a race scenario.

I've found that I get really good gains in training, doing 2 (or 3) intervals of 15-20min at this effort or just below it. Generally you have to do this on your own too which makes it harder.

The "I should have left the credit card at home" thread

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