Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

Morlar · 03-06-2009 10:07am

If it's possible I would love to see bigger & clearer pictures of that one. Does your friend have any information on the person it was awarded to ?

citizen_p · 03-06-2009 12:25pm

dammm it looks almost new.... from what i can see in the picture
10,000 is a bit over budget though

i think ill stick within my budget for now...

danpatjoe · 04-06-2009 12:50am

I'm really looking forward to seeing some good clear shots of this cross!...

chem · 04-06-2009 9:47pm

Working on it lads. Asked for pics up close and copy of the cert etc... Hope to have them soon.
Lads cant get firefox to copy the image any bigger!! Its driving me mad here!!

Ok got it to work folks. But image is still abit fuzzy!!

danpatjoe · 15-06-2009 12:18am

chem wrote: »

...Ok got it to work folks. But image is still abit fuzzy!!

Oh dear... I have a bad, bad feeling about this RK... :eek:
It is definitely not a Juncker. No genuine wartime RK that I know of had those extreme rounded inner corners. Even from the blurry picture, it looks very like the infamous "Rounder" fake, if not, then one of the numerous Eastern European fakes.

I'd love to know who the "expertise" is from, and if they offer a lifetime guarantee of originality.

Here is an image showing a genuine L/12 marked Juncker RK on the left and the cross in question on the right:

danpatjoe · 16-06-2009 10:43am

Added another Fritz Zimmermann marked cross to the collection recently:

danpatjoe · 16-06-2009 10:46am

...and this almost mint condition unmarked Wächtler & Lange.

danpatjoe · 26-06-2009 2:34pm

Here's one I have been after for a long time!

This unmarked cross, known as the übergröße or oversize EK2 is one of the very rare versions. These are so called because of their large size (47.5mm as opposed to the 'standard' 1939 EK at 44/45mm). Some believe that these were originally made as 'prototype' Knights Crosses as they are practically as big as the RK.
Being so rare and collectable, they command prices 5+ times as much as a regular marked EK2.

I'm delighted with this one and love the heavy patina. I have included a picture showing it alongside a regular '65' marked EK2 and the rare smaller 'Schinkelform' one piece for comparison on sizes.

Dr Strange · 26-06-2009 2:43pm

Nice "übergröße", dan!

That must have cost you a bit I imagine.

EDIT:

Being so rare and collectable, they command prices 5+ times as much as a regular marked EK2

Only saw that now.

That's why I thought it may have cost ya a bit.

danpatjoe · 26-07-2009 12:14am

Here's another that I've been after for a long time. An unmarked Juncker cross (I haven't yet seen a genuine wartime marked '2' Juncker but L/12 marked examples are known to exist).

At first glance these are almost identicle to Wächtler & Lange '100' crosses, but on careful inspection, Junckers display this very distinctive 'crosshatching' on the beading at the corners.

Morlar · 29-07-2009 8:10pm

With Danpatjoe's agreement I have put his EK2 collection into a gallery, using his pictures (photoshopped a bit to even out the backgrounds)

Here it is if anyone would like to check it out :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/Medals.html

click on the Iron Cross at the top to open the pictures ( http://www.militaria-archive.com/ek2/index.html )

If any other collectors on here would like their militaria collection displayed similairly online (or as a 'Private Collection') let me know as I would love to expand the site to include other peoples items too.

danpatjoe · 09-09-2009 9:52pm

Another 1914 cross, this one marked S-W from the firm of Sy und Wagner.

danpatjoe · 12-09-2009 8:54am

And another 1914, this one from the manufacturer WILM of Berlin.

citizen_p · 29-09-2009 8:38pm

EK2 award ceremony
same as a set posted in ek1 thread. came from same source i think.glue on back.... seem to have been in same album

^^ camera in man aboves hands ^^

good shot of fresh EK2s on men in background

notice packet of EK2s and the gloves???? of the man awarding them

danpatjoe · 30-11-2009 11:27pm

I haven't added anything to this thread lately, so here's an unusual one to bring it back up - A rare early Godet first frame version.
This has the standard Godet core but a totally different frame type.

And below, the standard Godet - note identical core but higher bead count on standard frame.

danpatjoe · 01-12-2009 9:55pm

Another from my favourite maker - Deschler & Söhne.
This one is clearly stamped and came complete with original marked packet of issue, full length of ribbon and tissue paper.

danpatjoe · 27-02-2010 1:38am

Here's my first purchase of the year... another übergröße (oversize) EK2.

Some fool scratched the paint on the reverse, but otherwise a fine example of this rare variation.
Note the filed inner corners around the swastika - a trait commonly found on these crosses.

danpatjoe · 30-03-2010 9:21am

Another unmarked and difficult to find, Schickle cross.
As this one has almost all of it's paint intact, except for one tiny spot on the reverse, it's difficult to tell if it has a brass plated core as the previouly posted example.

danpatjoe · 28-11-2010 1:45am

I had completely forgotten about this thread, and because of this I have many more interesting (to me anyway!) crosses to add. So now, to bring it back from the dead.... with something that is technically 'off topic'....

I have finally managed to add to my collection, an award period, A-type 1870 EK2. It has a non-combatant ribbon, which is a lot harder to find (unfortunately, I cannot be certain that the ribbon is original to the cross). I have been looking for one of these for ages, and sadly, it's a collecting field that is awash with some very convincing fakes.

This cross (unmarked, as it should be), from an unknown maker, has some typical double-cast lines showing over the W and the date on the obverse of the sand cast core, and is smaller in size than it's 1914 counterpart, measuring 40.52 x 40.46mm. It weighs 16.2grams.

I am really happy to have landed this beauty.

Dr Strange · 28-11-2010 1:54pm

Congrats DanPatJoe! What a beaut!

BlackEdelweiss · 29-11-2010 10:34pm

Hi Danpatjoe,
This is my first cross, I got it online a few weeks ago. I was wondering if you could tell me anything about it or even if you think it is real or a fake.

Cheers,
J.

danpatjoe · 30-11-2010 12:27am

Hi BlackEdelweiss,

Congratulations on your first EK2, and it is indeed a fine original example.
Its' maker is Fritz Zimmermann of Stuttgart - PKz No. 6.

Yours is an earlier core version (these examples have not been found displaying a maker mark). It is known as the 'thin date' core. Here is an example like yours (on the right) along with another Zimmermann cross which is stamped and has the later core. Unfortunately, I no longer have my example (pictured), as I sold it to help finance another purchase. I've regretted it ever since and still have not found a replacement! They are not the easiest cross to find (not super rare, but uncommon).

Do you think you will be getting another cross to keep it company?!

Regards - Dan

BlackEdelweiss · 30-11-2010 11:10am

Thanks for the quick and very detailed response, it is nice to know that it is a genuine cross. I would love to get another cross so I could compare them to each other, it is difficult to understand minute differences by just reading about them. Unfortunately my finances wont allow for any more purchases for a while, I had been waiting for a long time to be able to get that one. It does seem like a very interesting area to specialize in and this thread is invaluable to anyone new like myself and I look forward to posting a picture or two of my next purchase whenever it may be.

BlackEdelweiss · 01-12-2010 11:22pm

Dan,
I have talked myself into buying another cross and was wondering if you could recommend anywhere online to buy one. I could go to the same guy I got my first cross from but I wouldent mind checking out a bit of the competition I just dont want to get stung with a fake from another site. I am not looking for anything fancy, just a simple unmarked cross for a relatively low price, I just want something to do a bit of comparison with.

danpatjoe · 02-12-2010 1:12am

BlackEdelweiss,

You've just stepped over the top of a very slippery slope!
I remember receiving my first EK2 (Imperial), and then getting the strong urge to purchase a WW2 version 'just for comparison purposes'.... and now I'm at 80+ crosses!!!:D

Unfortunately, I don't have any for sale at the moment, but here are a few sites I have purchased crosses from without any problems.

Paul Hogle at Lakesidetrader has recently purchased a very large collection of quality EK's, and is a very trustworthy dealer -
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/Ironcross.html#2nd%20Class%20Iron%20Crosses

Klaus Butschek is another dealer who I have used and find to be pretty good.
http://klaus-butschek.com/index.php?sid=61c65128e9d8d3f2a5741e5e2a8e2fdf&cl=alist&cnid=f5e46ebf8a4901a08.26593501

or Marc at Militaria Sales sometimes has some nice EK's.
http://winkel.militariasales.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=30_31

If you are not already a member of the Wehrmacht Awards forum, you could always joinup and use their estand. It usually has quite a high turn over of sales and EK's can regularly be found a relatively good prices. You do not need to pay the $25 membership fee in order to use the estand.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Hope this helps. If you have any doubts about a purchase, post some pictures here and hopefully one of us will be able to help you out.

Best of luck!

Regards - Dan

BlackEdelweiss · 02-12-2010 10:55am

Hi Dan, thanks for those links, I will check them out later. You are right about the very slippery slope, I sat up for ages last night looking for a good reference book to help me. The Gordon Williamson Iron Cross 1939 book seems to be the most sought after but at €450 I think it is out of my range. I saw another book, The Iron Time by Stephen Previteria for £66 which was as cheap as I could find it. Would you recommend this book as a reference for future purchases or should I just buy a few EK's and get to know them that way. It will be a while before I can afford these few but I can stretch to either 1 more or the book for now.

danpatjoe · 03-12-2010 10:01am

Dang! I had typed a response to this yesterday and my computer crashed as I was submitting it.

I have both of the books you mention, and both are interesting and informative reads.

Gordon's book has been long out of print and as the printing plates had been accidentally destroyed, there will never be a reprint. This is why it commands such high prices, but €450 is absolutely crazy! I paid €100 for my copy a few years ago.
It is a good book but is a little dated by now. The RK section has a few fakes appearing that have been since exposed. As for a reference for 2nd class 1939 crosses, it is probably one of the best, but be aware, it does NOT show an example of each maker. Also, the photographs are on the small side and B&W except for a few colour plates in the DK & RK sections.

Stephen's 'Iron Time' is in it's second print run and has been updated. It is a very lavish production detailing the history of the Iron Cross from 1813 - 1957. It is full of beautiful, large colour pictures and shows some very rare and desirable crosses. As to 1939 2nd class crosses, it too does not have many examples shown and would not really be the most helpful to a novice collector in this area.

If you can wait, there will be a book coming out next year dealing exclusively with 1939 Iron Cross 2nd class. Produced by B&D publishing and written by George Stimson & Dietrich Maerz, it promises to become the 'bible' of collectors in this area.
I have their book on 1st class crosses and it indeed is the most detailed and informative I have seen to date. Each makers characteristics are explored in minute detail, and variant forms of each are pictured with explanations of the differences. Well worth the money, so I'm really looking forward to the 2nd class version.
See:
http://s276159374.e-shop.info/shop/article_BD-003R/The-Iron-Cross-1.-Class.html?shop_param=cid%3D2%26aid%3DBD-003R%26

Anyhow, if you do decide to invest in a new cross in the meantime, be sure to let us see any potential purchases first!

Regards - Dan

BlackEdelweiss · 03-12-2010 4:39pm

Hi Dan,
I might wait for the new book, I am not in that much a rush with it. I'm sure there are plenty of websites that can give me a bit of basic info for now. I was thinking of buying this cross from Klaus Butschek.I thought it had a distinctive shape to the top of the "3" compared to others I have been looking at. Is this a bad thing or does it mean anything? I thought it might be a detail from a particular maker. I have it reserved at €70, what do you think?

http://klaus-butschek.com/index.php?sid=b2d5a7c4cd3307d5e2776939c5bd366b&cl=details&cnid=f5e46ebf8a4901a08.26593501&anid=bp94ce01bdcd84399.59718109&pgNr=1

danpatjoe · 03-12-2010 5:50pm

Hi,

It's a good looking cross, and I believe it's a Paul Meybauer of Berlin. (PKZ No. 7 or LDO No. L/13). I reckon €70 is a good price for it.

When you receive it can you post some clearer pictures of it, as Meybauer cores were sometimes used by the makers 'Arbeitsgemeinschaft für Heeresbedarf darf In der Graveur-u. Ziseleurinnung' (PKZ No. 23).
So until I see clear shots of the beading, I cannot say for definite which maker it is. However, I am leaning towards it being a 'full' Meybauer. See post number six in this thread (a '7' marked Meybauer), it has the same filed edge of the 3 in the 1813 date.

Looking forward to seeing it!
Regards - Dan

danpatjoe · 07-12-2010 12:24am

Here's another recent addition - a rare and hard to find cross, it was formerly called an 'intermixed' or 'halb' Schinkel. It has been said to be attributed to a particular 1914 maker, but it's identity is still unknown. This cross is now deemed to be a 'full' Schinkel, ie. made from left over 1914 parts.

Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

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