Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

danpatjoe

Hello All...

Instead of taking up space with multiple threads, I decided I would show some of my EK's in the one place. This way I (or anyone else) can add more examples over time. Obviously, if anyone is lucky enough to have in their possession an 1813 or 1870 version I would be delighted to see it.

Here is my first contribution:
A very rare early one-piece (zinc) cross in the 'Schinkel-form' style. This one is showing its age with paint-loss and wear to the plating. The jump ring has also been pulled away from the obverse but is still solid. As with all of these style crosses it is unmarked.

(The iron cross as we know it was originally designed by the architect Karl Friedrich Schinkel. These crosses are termed 'Schinkel-form' in reference to their similarities in size and shape to the original iron crosses, as opposed to the larger 1939 version).

danpatjoe

This one landed today, a long awaited "1" from the firm of Deschler & Söhne, Munich.

A heavier than usual EK2 with a very distinctive hump at the suspension ring. I admit I probably over-paid for this one given it's condition, but it's the first I have seen offered anywhere in ages, so I couldn't resist. Unfortunately only a partial stamping on the ring, but still most definitely a Deschler.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

arnhem44

some fine crosses there Dan,being trying to photo my own but they keep coming out blurry,brought them down from the attic so hopefully i'll get a clearer shot tomorrow,so how many have you in your collection?,i'd imagine they would make a really lovely display when alltogether

danpatjoe

This is one of the many firms who used two different cores for their crosses during the war. The above example has a 'stepped swastika' while the example below does not have this feature.

danpatjoe

arnhem44 wrote: »

some fine crosses there Dan,being trying to photo my own but they keep coming out blurry,brought them down from the attic so hopefully i'll get a clearer shot tomorrow,so how many have you in your collection?,i'd imagine they would make a really lovely display when alltogether

Thanks for the kind comments!:)
I just can't get enough of these crosses! I'm looking forward to seeing yours.. are any of them maker-marked?
At the moment I have about 50 crosses in my collection, recently I sold off quite a few of my unmarked examples to finance some other purchases.

arnhem44

wow thats some collection,i've around a hundred and forty or fifty medals altogether but always stuck to buying one of each,the crosses are all maker markered,the ww2 first class is marked 4,the ww2 second class is 27 and the ww1 second class has what looks like two stamps but i really can't tell what the makers mark are,i nearly went blind looking at it the other night:owill do my best to get them posted up here

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

arnhem44

Finally got them done,as you can see the first class has an edge knock.

danpatjoe

Hello arnhem44,

Those are some really nice crosses!

The EK1 has seen better days, but still looks good. I like the 'been there' look (as can be seen on a lot of my crosses!)

The EK2 mm '27' (Anton Schenkl's Nachfolger, Vienna) is one of my favourite makers. Your cross is in better condition than my example which is missing some paint from the core.
The ribbon on yours is incorrect - it is from a War Merit Cross 2nd class (KVK2 - Kreigsverdienst Kreuz) - a reversed version of the EK2 ribbon.



The 1914 medal bar with the Hindenberg cross is great! The EK is a nice "CD 800" . IMO these crosses have some of the best core details seen on 1914 EK's. Here's mine for comparison.





Again, great crosses! Thanks for showing them.

- Dan

arnhem44

Thanks for the info Dan,it just so happens i have a second class merit medal with a very poor replacement ribbon so i'll be able to swap over,have to pick up a piece of original ribbon now,i should of noticed that before:rolleyes:

arnhem44

just saw an 1813 1st class cross on ebay,user name lots-of-good-stuff,auctions nearly over,i've never seen one before and looks pretty plain to me

danpatjoe

I had a look... and I reckon it's a fake.

The core looks like it is from a later piece that has had it's details ground or shaved off. Inconsistant wear on the beading, and the patina on the reverse looks false also - maybe chemically treated.

The price makes me very suspicious! As there were only 638 officially awarded 1813 Ek1's, these usually sell for huge amounts.

arnhem44

I never saw one before and it does look a bit iffy,are they all plain like that??,there is more repos on ebay now than originals,there rules regarding the sale of german medals and badges are also silly,i think your better off sticking to private dealers or shops where you can judge a medal or badge before you buy,i have quite a few repos now,especially german badges:(

danpatjoe

Yes, the obverse of the 1813 EK is plain, but the reverse of the second class version is the same as the 1870 and 1914 versions. It shows the crown of Prussia, the initials 'FW' (Friedrich Wilhelm III - the founder of the iron cross award), the spray of oak leaves and the year of institution, 1813.

arnhem44

danpatjoe wrote: »

I had a look... and I reckon it's a fake.

The core looks like it is from a later piece that has had it's details ground or shaved off. Inconsistant wear on the beading, and the patina on the reverse looks false also - maybe chemically treated.

The price makes me very suspicious! As there were only 638 officially awarded 1813 Ek1's, these usually sell for huge amounts.

Having looked at it again,it does look to have been tampered with on the front,something looks like its been removed from the center out,bad luck for the one who wins it if it isn't original

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

This maker's crosses are commonly refered to as 'wide-frame' examples. Frequently found with additional marks on the small jump-ring. ('Acorn', 'cross' and 'dot' being some of these additional marks.)

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

This makers crosses are commonly found with very distressed beading with evidence of many die flaws.

danpatjoe

One of the rarer makers.

Dr Strange

Must say, I love your collection!

danpatjoe

Preusse wrote: »

Must say, I love your collection!

Thanks Preusse!
I just can't get enough of these little crosses!

Hopefully these images may be of some help as a reference for someone who is intending to purchase an EK.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Another rare one.
The maker mark on this one is unusual in that it has a very definite 'period' (.) after the numbers, presumably to differenciate from the number '99'.

danpatjoe

Until recently this was an unknown maker, but it is now thought to be of the firm of Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid.

A very distinctive cross with unusual beading.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Not generally known as a 'wideframe', but this cross has a large frame to match the size of a '24'.

FiSe

I will ask a silly question now, but can you find the "real owner" /holder/ of whichever particular cross? Is there a number or some sort of code stamped on them? So you'd be able to trace its history?
/ie. 32261 belongs to Uffz Josef Ursch, awarded in 1942 for attack on enemy pillbox/

Dr Strange

Hi FiSe,

not a silly question at all! That system would be great for collectors as it would make life easier researching the people behind the awards.

Unfortunately, it is not the case. The only markings you may find on an Iron Cross Second class and most Iron Crosses 1st Class are the makers marks. Very rarely do Iron Crosses 1st Class have a personalised name engraved on the back and many have been faked.

That is why many collectors look for complete documentation with the awards. If you are lucky you can get the award still with its original documentation:

The awards-certificate (Verleihungsurkunde) - it will tell you who the reciepient was, what army category he was in, when the award was awarded, the name of the awarding officer.

The paymentbook (Soldbuch) as well as army passport (Wehrpass) - these will have details about all decorations awarded to the person, what dates, what combat situations (link with dates in awards section).

I personally would always buy documents and awards belonging together. Sometimes, dealers/sellers have a large amount of awards and couments all from one family and in order to sell them quicker they "tear apart" the collection and sell everything seperately. This is terrible as it is impossible now to link documents and awards. You may always be able to buy another original Iron Cross or other awards that is missing in a document group but it will never be the original medal awarded to the person.

Best,
Preusse

danpatjoe

Preusse wrote: »

I personally would always buy documents and awards belonging together....
Sometimes, dealers/sellers have a large amount of awards and couments all from one family and in order to sell them quicker they "tear apart" the collection and sell everything seperately.

I agree with Preusse, in that it would be great for collectors if all medals had been engraved/marked or coded in some way, so that research could be carried out on the recipient, but alas...

Unfortunately, I imagine there are also unscrupulous dealers/sellers out there that are matching random medals to award documents and thus 'creating' groups.
It is relatively easy to find an EK2 document and maybe an Ostmedaille or Black Wound Badge document to the same soldat, just add the relevant medals, ribbonbars, packets etc., and hey presto! a great grouping. We have only the dealers word to rely on.

Sorry if I seem a bit too cynical!

- Dan

Dr Strange

danpatjoe wrote: »

. . .
Unfortunately, I imagine there are also unscrupulous dealers/sellers out there that are matching random medals to award documents and thus 'creating' groups.
It is relatively easy to find an EK2 document and maybe an Ostmedaille or Black Wound Badge document to the same soldat, just add the relevant medals, ribbonbars, packets etc., and hey presto! a great grouping. We have only the dealers word to rely on.

Sorry if I seem a bit too cynical!

- Dan

No Dan, you are quite right. That is why I try to get most of my material directly from the families but if you buy from a dealer or internet you have to watch out! Sometimes you see something and already get the feeling there's something not quite right. I usually skip anything I have doubts about.

FiSe

...sorry for hijackin' this thread :cool:

But another question:
How much is the usual price for such a medal/s?

Bit of explanation, I'm building models of, mainly, German WWII selfpropelled guns and I'd like to have a few basic medals to go with my collection /Iron Cross, Tnker badge, Infantry badge.../
So obviously I'm not looking for some rare pieces, but if the price is reasonable I'd rather have an original item then some resin copy /which would do the trick at the end as well, but.../
Thanks

Dr Strange

FiSe wrote: »

...sorry for hijackin' this thread :cool:

But another question:
How much is the usual price for such a medal/s?

Bit of explanation, I'm building models of, mainly, German WWII selfpropelled guns and I'd like to have a few basic medals to go with my collection /Iron Cross, Tnker badge, Infantry badge.../
So obviously I'm not looking for some rare pieces, but if the price is reasonable I'd rather have an original item then some resin copy /which would do the trick at the end as well, but.../
Thanks

Hi there,

the price really depends on rarity and where you are buying. Do you have a list of medals you would like to own? I do sell some medals and other militaria from time to time to very reasonable prices if I may say so. I'd be more than happy to help you out. Have a look in my signature, there is a link to recently sold and for sale stuff which I put on adverts.ie.

If you have a list of items/medals I can look into it and let you know the approx. prices. I have some collector friends in Germany who always sell some of their collectables in order to upgrade. Originality/autheticity is guaranteed and you can always return a medal if you have your doubts (for the full price but excluding postage).

danpatjoe

Hello FiSe,

These models sound interesting! Can we see them when they are finished?

Do you intend to attach the medals/badges permanently to the display?
I hope you would use reproductions if it were a case that the medal would have to be altered and/or damaged during the attachment (eg. pins being removed or ground down, or where glueing is involved).
I don't believe that any genuine award should be interfered with in such a way.

Regards - Dan

danpatjoe

Back to the crosses!...

Probably the easiest crosses to identify due to their very obvious frame differences. Souval's frames used a very different style of cornice on the beading than 'regular' crosses. Note the 'birds feet' style cornices and the very rounded inner corners.

My least favourite maker, (I think they are ugly!), Souval's crosses are not generally liked, because he continued to use the dies to produce EK's after April 1945, and there is no easy way to tell the post-war ones apart.

These frames also appear on some crosses using a Frederich Orth - (MM-15) core, (believed to be a case of factories helping each other out to fulfil orders. Both producers are from Vienna).

danpatjoe

This makers crosses are frequently found in excellent condition with all the rhodium plating and white 'frosting' remaining. Another maker that uses the 'hump' to attach the jump-ring.

This example arrived with a surprise!... a wartime 'Visitenkarte' from the person it was awarded to:
Horst Joachim Meye
Oberleutnant in Einer PZ.-Aufkl.-Abtlg.

(This was enclosed with the cross by the seller who added a note to tell me what it was. It was not part of the sale and I was unaware of it until I opening the package. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve it, so I have left it with the cross just in case!)

Dr Strange

danpatjoe wrote: »

...
Do you intend to attach the medals/badges permanently to the display?
I hope you would use reproductions if it were a case that the medal would have to be altered and/or damaged during the attachment (eg. pins being removed or ground down, or where glueing is involved).
I don't believe that any genuine award should be interfered with in such a way.

Regards - Dan

Yes, a good point, Dan. I have to say I wouldn't agree with the use of any awards in such a way either. There are many good reproductions out there which could be used for such alterations.

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

This one unfortunately has had it's core re-painted.

danpatjoe

These crosses have an oversized jump ring and a very unusual large maker stamp.

danpatjoe

Here is a cross from the firm of J.J. Stahl, one of two firms (the other being '123' - Beck, Hassinger & Co.) that were technically 'outside the reich' - both firms were located in Strassbourg in the Alsace region, (although the notion of 'being outside the reich' would have been hotly debated at the time.)

danpatjoe

A cross from the second Alsace firm.



And another late war example with a completely different style of maker mark. Unfortunately this one was poorly stored and has a bad case of rust on the core.