Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

Fuinseog

can anyone tell me what kind of iron cross this is? I could not find a makers mark. slightlty rusted on reverse, but I got it for a good price.


http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h359/rexmundi77/DSCF0655.jpg

danpatjoe

Hi Fuinseog,

It looks like a good cross, but with this picture, it's practically impossible to tell the maker. Much clearer and closer pictures of the core and frame details are needed, both obverse and reverse. At the moment, my guess would be maker M - an unknown maker. There are many Imperial makers that have not yet been identified, this being one of them.

On a second look, are you sure it's not marked? It looks like there is one on the ring, but it may just be the soldered joint.

The ribbon looks like it is period manufacture, but very clean in comparison to the cross itself...

I'm looking forward to seeing some more images of it.

Regards - Dan

Fuinseog

danpatjoe wrote: »

Hi Fuinseog,

It looks like a good cross, but with this picture, it's practically impossible to tell the maker. Much clearer and closer pictures of the core and frame details are needed, both obverse and reverse. At the moment, my guess would be maker M - an unknown maker. There are many Imperial makers that have not yet been identified, this being one of them.

On a second look, are you sure it's not marked? It looks like there is one on the ring, but it may just be the soldered joint.

The ribbon looks like it is period manufacture, but very clean in comparison to the cross itself...

I'm looking forward to seeing some more images of it.

Regards - Dan

thanks for getting back to me. I will try to get a better picture, but it may take some time. I bought it in an Austrian junk shop and the seller knew nothing of it save that it was WW1.

MedalFuhrer

Hi Danpatjoe,

I am hoping to avail of your expertese and pick your brains. I have just bought my first Iron Cross. It came as part of a set- this and an Eastern Front medal, as well as some nice photographs.
What do you think this cross is and do you think that it is the real mccoy?

Thanks.

danpatjoe

Hello,

A very nice first EK2! Congratulations.

It is without doubt an original cross. It was made by the firm 'Anton Schenkl's Nachfolger, Wien.' (PKZ No. 27). This firm is thought to be one and the same as 'Maria Schenkl, Wien' whose name appears on some marked packets of issue. A rough translation of the word 'nachfolger' is 'successor' so this would make sense.

They are a very good looking cross with distinctive 'slim' numerals in the dates and a big wide swastika. The veining on the core looks great too!
(see posts 15 & 86 in this thread for other examples by this maker)

A very nice acquisition indeed! Can we see the entire grouping please?

Regards - Dan

MedalFuhrer

Thanks Dan! I have to say that it is an impressive medal. I have been looking forward to owning one for a good while now. Is the veining a defect of the black rising over time or is it a design feature? I will post up the full grouping later tonight or tomorrow when I get some time.

Thanks again.

danpatjoe

The 'veining' isn't really what you would call a defect with the paint, it is caused by rusting of the iron core underneath the paint. For some reason, it is found on some makers crosses more so than others. Meybauer crosses are frequently found with this feature.
Personally, I like to see it, as it gives each cross a very unique look.

Fuinseog

danpatjoe wrote: »

Hi Fuinseog,

It looks like a good cross, but with this picture, it's practically impossible to tell the maker. Much clearer and closer pictures of the core and frame details are needed, both obverse and reverse. At the moment, my guess would be maker M - an unknown maker. There are many Imperial makers that have not yet been identified, this being one of them.

On a second look, are you sure it's not marked? It looks like there is one on the ring, but it may just be the soldered joint.

The ribbon looks like it is period manufacture, but very clean in comparison to the cross itself...

I'm looking forward to seeing some more images of it.

Regards - Dan

you were right the maker is M as I have just seen on the ring. close up pictures of medals that are in focus is something I need to work on.

danpatjoe

It's not often you find them in this exceptional condition!
A marked 'Fr.' - Friedländer, Berlin.

HerrScheisse

Absolutely spotless

Dan - is that a non-combatants Iron Cross? There are two ribbon variants - is that correct?

danpatjoe

Hello HS,

No, that's the standard combatant ribbon (black ribbon with two white stripes), while the non-combatant ribbon is the opposite (white ribbon with two black stripes). The 1939 range of EK's were the first not to have a non-combatant ribbon - these were replaced by the War Merit Cross (Kriegsverdienstkreuz).

Here's a non-combatant ribbon on an 1870 EK2:

arnhem44

Hello Dan that is a nice Cross alright.Is there any variation on an Iron Cross itself to distinguish between a combatant and non combatant or is it simply a case of medals having a different pattern ribbon?

danpatjoe

Hello Arnhem,

Yes, it was as simple as that. The cross itself was a 'standard' second class cross, it was the ribbon style that differentiates between the combatant and non combatant.

danpatjoe

Here's my most exciting recent addition, my second 1870 A type core EK2. This one is on a combatant ribbon. It is a beautiful cross in hand although the black finish is very well worn on the core (It looks to me as if the cross may have been cleaned at some stage and the black finish suffered as a result).
I believe this to be considered an 'award period' cross, it weighs 16.1 grams and measures 41.5mm wide by 41.19mm high.

These little crosses have begun to interest me more than TR EK's, but considering their price, I cannot see myself gathering as many of these!

danpatjoe

Here's an unusual cross in that it does not conform to the 'standard', it is a single piece 1914 EK2. This is one I have been looking for an example of for quite a while. I have read that they were made by Otto Schickle, as were the 1939 single piece Schickel-form EK2's. It cross weighs 22.1 grams and measures 43.28 wide by 42.69mm high.

Having the 1939 version in my collection, I really wanted the 1914 version to compare it to, hence my delight to have this one arrive.

The seller thought that it might have had a repaint job on the core as the paint is very glossy, but I have to say that I am not altogether convinced that this is the case. But for the moment, I am considering it repainted (closer examination will be forthcoming!)





Below is the 1939 version for comparison, which weighs 19.1 grams an measures 43.46 wide by 43.00mm high.

citizen_p

Frontline Award Ceremony
maybe a EK2 and EK1 awarding ceremony? as 2nd from the right may also have an award document

danpatjoe

Here's the most recent addition to the flock - a nicely worn 1914 MFH (unknown maker) with a decent length of original ribbon.
A very hard to find maker.
They have very unusual features with the oddest crown design I have seen to date.

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Here's the most recent addition to the flock - a nicely worn 1914 MFH (unknown maker) with a decent length of original ribbon.
A very hard to find maker.
They have very unusual features with the oddest crown design I have seen to date.

Hello.

I am new here.Excuse me for my bad english.I am living in Spain.

I have the following numbered EKII in my collection:

1 - 3 - L/11 - 4 - 5 - 6. - 7 - 8 - 11 - 13 - 23 - 24 - WR24 - 25 - 27 - 40 - 44 - 52 - 55 - 56 - 65 - 75 - 76 - 93 - 98 - 100 - 106 - 113 - L/56 - 120 - 122 - 123 (Directly stamped on the ring) - 123 (inside a rectangle) - 128 - 138

arnhem44

Hello Von Burgdorf and welcome to the forum.Sounds like an interesting collection you have there,any photos you would like to share?

danpatjoe

Von Burgdorf wrote: »

Hello.

I am new here.Excuse me for my bad english.I am living in Spain.

I have the following numbered EKII in my collection:

1 - 3 - L/11 - 4 - 5 - 6. - 7 - 8 - 11 - 13 - 23 - 24 - WR24 - 25 - 27 - 40 - 44 - 52 - 55 - 56 - 65 - 75 - 76 - 93 - 98 - 100 - 106 - 113 - L/56 - 120 - 122 - 123 (Directly stamped on the ring) - 123 (inside a rectangle) - 128 - 138

Hello and welcome!

That sounds like quite a collection, I too would like to see some pictures.

I am especially interested to see the crosses marked '5' and '8' as I have never seen one of either that I was happy with. (I have read that a certain German dealer is well known for selling original crosses with post-war stamped marks, frequently using these numbers).

It's nice to see that you have both types of the '123' crosses - the rectangle stamp version is quite hard to find.
I'm also really looking forward to seeing your L/56, Funcke & Bruninghaus - as that's a maker that I don't have in my collection - I only have an EK1 with that maker stamp.

I hope you can find some time to let us see your collection.

Regards - Dan

Von Burgdorf

arnhem44 wrote: »

Hello Von Burgdorf and welcome to the forum.Sounds like an interesting collection you have there,any photos you would like to share?

Hello.
Thank you very much.
I will share pictures.

Regards

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Hello and welcome!

That sounds like quite a collection, I too would like to see some pictures.

I am especially interested to see the crosses marked '5' and '8' as I have never seen one of either that I was happy with. (I have read that a certain German dealer is well known for selling original crosses with post-war stamped marks, frequently using these numbers).

It's nice to see that you have both types of the '123' crosses - the rectangle stamp version is quite hard to find.
I'm also really looking forward to seeing your L/56, Funcke & Bruninghaus - as that's a maker that I don't have in my collection - I only have an EK1 with that maker stamp.

I hope you can find some time to let us see your collection.

Regards - Dan

Hello.
Thank you very much.

These are some of my iron crosses.

danpatjoe

Von Burgdorf wrote: »

Hello.
Thank you very much.

These are some of my iron crosses.

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

The "5"

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

The "8"

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

The "L/56"

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

The "24"

Von Burgdorf

danpatjoe wrote: »

Looking really good!
Can we have some close-ups please?
especially the 5, 8 & L/56. :rolleyes:

The very rare "WR 24"

danpatjoe

Von Burgdorf wrote: »

The "5"

Hi,
Thanks for the images, I'm just having a look at them now.
However, I'm sad to say, your '5' is definitely a Floch fake.

I'm a bit wary of the '8' also...
I have seen this stamp before and other style marks too - all on different crosses. The other thing that worries me about it is that both the frame and core do not match Hoffstädter's L/19 marked EK1. (I know that it is possible that different dies were used, but it is uncommon to encounter this).

Your L/56 is a real beauty indeed, No problems with that one, I'd love to have that in my own collection!

The WR 24 is a new one on me...
I've never seen or heard about one with a mark like that. 24's are known to have additional marks on the small jump ring, but this marking I don't know.

Regards - Dan

BTW, Have you had any of these crosses checked out elsewhere?
I'd love to hear some more opinions.

danpatjoe

I have been looking around regarding the WR 24 cross, and have found some alright. The WR (or WB?) is sometimes found on the small jumpring, but has also been seen on the ribbon ring - like yours.
However,
All the versions I have found have the WR/WB stamp in an 'incused relief' style stamp and the 24 is in the standard style (sans serif)....

So, I'm still at a loss on that one.