Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1870, 1914 & 1939

danpatjoe

Here's a rare one which is made even rarer by being double marked (ie. stamped on both sides of the ring)

danpatjoe

danpatjoe

Another 'mint' example.

danpatjoe

A private purchase L/11.

moceri

I Have had this old medal from a Great Uncle. The Centre Cross Has a Raised Crown, "W", 1914. It Looks similar to An Iron Cross, but have not seen any of this Type.

Can anyone help?

danpatjoe

moceri wrote: »

I Have had this old medal from a Great Uncle. The Centre Cross Has a Raised Crown, "W", 1914. It Looks similar to An Iron Cross, but have not seen any of this Type.

Can anyone help?

It's not an actual military medal, but there were many, many differing pieces of patriotic jewelry/ornaments such as pendants, bracelets, brooches, rings etc. made for civilian use during the first war which featured the Iron Cross. I suspect that this is one of them.

- Dan

SpitfireIV

Still in awe at the collection Dan, whats the number of EC's up to now? Any chance of a group shot? (yeah, I know it'd be a load of iron cross's, but it'd cool to see them all).

How are you finding prices and availiblity of these medals recently with the current economic climate?

danpatjoe

Thanks CroppyBoy

You did ask!....

Unfortunately, I had to sell a lot of them recently in order to upgrade the collection, so at the moment the total is 63. The good thing is that they are now all examples in very good condition (and there are now 5 cased EK1's aswell!)

I don't have any group shot of all the crosses together, but here's a couple I took featuring most of them recently. In the photographs, all the crosses except for 2 of the Imperial EK2's and 2 of the EK1's are maker marked.

Regarding the prices, generally they don't seem to have dropped much at all, you can still find the odd bargain on worn, unmarked crosses but these are few and far between. The rarer crosses are still commanding very high figures.

EDIT - Sorry about the large images... I used the wrong hosting site

danpatjoe

Here's a relatively unusual one - This cross looks to have a brass core, but yet it is magnetic. More than likely it has just a brass plating over a standard ferrous core, but it has also been suggested that this firm used a brass coloured alloy in their cores.

It had been thought that these brass cored crosses were issued to the Kriegsmarine, as the standard iron core rusted rapidly when exposed to salt water, however this theory has since been de-bunked.

Schickle used the LDO code of L/15 but did not have a PKZ number.

arnhem44

Hi Dan,first off what a fantastic collection of crosses you have there,just wondering how many different makers there is and did each maker make both first class and second class crosses or would some of them been limited to just the one.As for your brass coloured one,I think I saw one of these for sale on www.specialistauctions.com sometime back,might even still be there as theres always crosses on there from the German sellers.

danpatjoe

Thanks arnhem!

How many makers?... too many!

Since approx. 80% of 1939 EK2's were unmarked, some crosses makers will never be identified. Many early crosses were made by many companies who did not receive licenses to produce EK's after production methods and materials were standardised. For example, all the schinkel-form crosses (same small size as the 1914 EK) were of early manufacture. Other firms lost their license to produce crosses before the marking system was introduced, so these examples cannot be identified.

To confuse things further, there were two makers codes being used simultaneously.
There was the Präsidialkanzlei "Lieferant" number used for officially awarded crosses (from 1944 onwards all crosses supplied to the Präsidialkanzlei were required to have this number).
Then there was the LDO number which was used for crosses that were supplied to the retail trade. It was allowed for soldiers who had been issued this award to purchase additional examples at their own expense.

There are first class crosses that have maker marks that are not found on second class examples (or have not been found yet - OR they may not have marked their second class crosses.... )

Here is a list of what I believe are the known makers of EKs:
(There are the Präsidialkanzlei codes only.
The number is the firms PKZ code)

1 Deschler & Sohn Munchen
2 C.E. Junker Berlin
3 Wilheim Deumer Ludenscheld
4 Steinhauer & Luck Ludenscheld
5 Hermann Wernstein Jena-Lobstedt
6 Fritz Zimmermann Stuttgart
7 Paul Meybauer Berlin
8 Ferdinand Hoffstadter Bonn a. Rhein
9 Liefergsmeinschaft Scmuckhandwerker Pforzheim
10 Foerster & Barth Pforzheim
11 Grossmann & Co. Wien
12 Frank & Reif Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen
13 Gustav Brehmer Markneukirchen/Sa
14 L. Chr. Lauer Nurnberg-W
15 Friedrich Orth Wien
16 Alols Rettenmaler Scwablsch-Gmund
19 E. Ferd Weidmann Frankfurt/Main
20 C.F. Zimmermann Pforzheim
21 Gebr. Godet & Co. Berlin
22 Boerger & Co. Berlin
23 Arbeitsgemeinschaft fur Heereshedarf darf In der Graveur-u. Ziseleurinnung
24 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Hanauer Plaket-ten-hersteller
25 Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Graveur-Gold-und Silberschemiede-Innungen
26 B. H. Mayer's Kunst-prageanstalt Pforzheim
27 Anton Schenkl's Nachf. Wien
29 Hauptmunzamt Berlin
30 Hauptmunzamt Wien
33 Friedrich Linden Ludenscheld
35 F.W. Assmann & Sohn Ludenscheld
36 Bury & Leonhard Hanau a. M
37 Ad. Baumeister Ludenscheld
39 Rudolf Berge Gablonz a.d.N.
40 Berg & Nolte Ludenscheld
43 Julius Bauer Sohne Zella Mehlisi/Thur.
44 Jakob Bengel Idar/Oberdonau
45 Franz Jungwirth Wien
46 Hans Doppler Wels/Oberdonau
47 Erhard & Sohne A.G. Schwabisch Gmund
49 Josef Feix Sohne Gablonz a.d.N.
50 Karl Gschiermeister Wien
52 Gottlieb & Wagner Ldar/Oberstein
55 J.E. Hammer & Sohne Geringswalde
56 Robert Hauschild Pforzheim
57 Karl Hensler Pforzheim
60 Katz & Deyhle Pforzheim
61 Rudolf A. Karneth & Sohne Gablonz a.N.
62 Kerbach & Oesterhelt Dresden
63 Franz Klast & Sohne Gablonz a.N.
65 Klein & Quenzer A.G. Idar/Oberstein
66 Freidrich Keller Oberstein
70 Lind & Meyrer Oberstein a.d.N.
72 Franz Lipp Pforzheim
73 Frank Manert Gablonz a.N.
75 (Unknown)
76 Ernst L. Muller Pforzheim
77 Bayer. Hauptmunzamt Munchen
78 Gustav Miksch Gablonz/N.
79 (Unknown)
83 Emll Peukert Gablonz a.N.
84 Carl Poellath Schrobenhausen
85 Julius Pletsch Gablonz/N.
86 Paulmann & Crone Ludenscheid
88 Werner Redo Saarlautern
89 Rudolf Richter Schlag 244 b. Gablonz
90 Aug. F. Richter K.G. Hamburg
92 Josef Rucker & Sohn Gablonz a.d.N.
93 Richard Simm & Sohne Gablonz a.d.N.
95 Adolf Scholze Grunwald a.d.N.
96 (Unknown)
97 (Unknown)
98 Rudolf Souval Wien
100 Rudolf Wachtler & Lange Mittweida
101 Rudolf Tam Gablonz a.d.N.
102 Philipp Turks Ww. Wien
103 Aug. G. Tam Gablonz a.d.N.
106 Bruder Schneider A.G. Wien
107 Carl Wild Hamburg
109 Walter & Hentein Gablonz a.d.N.
113 Hermann Aurich Dresden
114 Ludwig Bertsch Karlsruhe
117 Hugo Lang Wiesenthal a.N.
118 August Menzs & Sohn Wien
119 (Unknown)
120 Franz Petzl Wien
122 JJ. Stahl Strassburg
123 Beck, Hassinger & Co. Strassburg
125 Eugen Gauss Pforzheim
126 Eduard Hahn Oberstein/Nahe
127 Moritz Hausch A.G. Pforzheim
128 S. Jablonski G.m.b.H. Posen
131 Heinrich Wander Gablonz
132 Franz Reischauer Oberstein
133 (Unknown)
135 Julius Moser sen Oberstein
136 J.Wagner & Sohn Berlin
137 J.H. Werner Berlin
138 Julius Maurer Oberstein
139 Hymmen & Co. Ludenscheid
140 Schauerte & Hohfeld Ludenscheid
141 Sohni, Heubach & Co Oberstein
142 A.D. Schwerdt Stuttgart

There are also these makers which do not have a PKZ code:

Küst
Berliner Gold-und Silberschmeide
Arbeitsgemeinschaft für das Eiserne Kreuz
Otto Schickle
Walter Wahl


Of this list, many makers only produced First class crosses and vice-versa with Second class examples.
As you can see, collecting an example from each maker is indeed a mammoth (if not impossible) task!

Sorry for the long-winded reply!

- Dan

arnhem44

Dan cheers for that info,your a wealth of information,I never thought it to be so complex regarding codes,makers and licenses,I must say its a facinating area of collecting and one that has so much research capabilities,has it taken you long to put the ones you have together?also are any of these companies still in existence today?,again well done on the collection.

danpatjoe

arnhem44 wrote: »

...has it taken you long to put the ones you have together?also are any of these companies still in existence today?

Thanks arnhem,
I've only been collecting EK's for about 3 years now. As to whether any of the companies are still in existence today? Good question... Yes, Steinhauer & Lück are still producing medals and I think there might be one or two others but I will have to get back to you on that.

- Dan

danpatjoe

The latest addition

StudyingEK

Dan,

I paid particular attention to your post (#90) of 0750h 15/03/09 as I recently acquired a 1939 EK II with the mm 55 of J.E. Hammer & Sohne.

Some features on mine raised questions but your example appears to be consistent allaying the fear mine may have been a repro.

Of particular interest on your example - I note the 3 on the obverse is a 'flat top' whereas the 3 on the reverse appears to be a 'round top'. I've never seen or read of this before. 'Flat top' 3s appear on both sides of mine. What are your thoughts on this?

danpatjoe

StudyingEK wrote: »

Dan,

I paid particular attention to your post (#90) of 0750h 15/03/09 as I recently acquired a 1939 EK II with the mm 55 of J.E. Hammer & Sohne.

Some features on mine raised questions but your example appears to be consistent allaying the fear mine may have been a repro.

Of particular interest on your example - I note the 3 on the obverse is a 'flat top' whereas the 3 on the reverse appears to be a 'round top'. I've never seen or read of this before. 'Flat top' 3s appear on both sides of mine. What are your thoughts on this?

Hello StudyingEK,
Welcome to the addiction!

The 3 in the 1813 date on mine does have a 'flat top' but just looks like it is round because it is corroded. Below is a montage of the 1813 dates from 3 of my '55's - you can see the dates better in this image (I hope!), note that they are all the same.

This makers crosses can be found with very heavy die flaws to the beading, how does yours compare? Can we see a picture or two?

StudyingEK

Dan,

What a relief! Not that I would begrudge you what would undoubtedly be a rare and potentially very valuable EK for your collection. However, if that had been a 'round top' 3 on your 1939 EK II mm 25, we would likely spend the rest of our lives trying to understand/explain/justify this anomaly. This pursuit already has enough questions to answer.

When I brought my example home and examined it under a 10X lens, the beading flaws were very evident and are identical in nature, if not location, to those visible on your images.

I will post some pictures in a few days when I return home and can generate pix with acceptable fille sizes.

danpatjoe

StudyingEK,

As far as I am aware, Hammer & Söhne only ever used one core stamp - there are no variations except for some that may show evidence of die-wear, so finding one with a major variation like a rounded 3 will be extremely unlikely!

The frames on the crosses varies hugely - some early versions have practically no die flaws at all while some late war versions show such extensive flawing that it indicates the dies must have been practically worn out. Quality control was obviously not as an important issue in the final stages of the war when EK2's were being handed out much more readily.

I'm looking forward to seeing your cross... Remember though, one is never enough!

StudyingEK

Dan,

I don't have a copy stand with proper lighting so the images of 1939 EK2 mm 55 are not the best. However, you may be able to see some of the flaws in the beading of the rim. The images have also been edited in an effort to make some of the details more visible.

As a matter of interest, Previtera quotes the dimensions of a "standard" 1939 EK2 as W & H: 44.4 mm to 44.5 mm. The dimensions of this example are W 43.85 mm, H 44.10 mm.These figures are the average of 10 readings of each dimension, taken near the mid points of the arms with a digital caliper. How do yours compare?

danpatjoe

StudyingEK wrote: »

Dan,

I don't have a copy stand with proper lighting so the images of 1939 EK2 mm 55 are not the best. However, you may be able to see some of the flaws in the beading of the rim. The images have also been edited in an effort to make some of the details more visible.

As a matter of interest, Previtera quotes the dimensions of a "standard" 1939 EK2 as W & H: 44.4 mm to 44.5 mm. The dimensions of this example are W 43.85 mm, H 44.10 mm.These figures are the average of 10 readings of each dimension, taken near the mid points of the arms with a digital caliper. How do yours compare?

StudyingEK,

That's a great looking '55' with a fine patina. It looks like a late version as it displays the heavy die flaws characteristic of this maker. Still, it's good to see it preserved so well... the paint on the core looks perfect.

As to the measurements... I can't tell you as I don't have a caliper.:(
However, the size of the 'standard' EK2 varies considerably between makers so I would not worry about the discrepancy. Mr. Previtera is more than likely using an average measurement range. (I presume this information is from his excellent publication "The Iron Time"?)

So, do you think you will you be investing in a 'brother' for your 55?!!
(If you do, have a look for a Klein & Quenzer '65', they are a common maker and easy to find, but the quality of workmanship is fantastic... you will be amazed at the differences between it and your 55!)

danpatjoe

This beauty arrived yesterday with a packet marked Walter & Heinlein '109', however, no known '109' marked crosses have yet been found, so there is nothing to compare this one to.

It has the unusual Austrian style trifold court mount ribbon.

StudyingEK

danpatjoe wrote: »

StudyingEK,

That's a great looking '55' with a fine patina. It looks like a late version as it displays the heavy die flaws characteristic of this maker. Still, it's good to see it preserved so well... the paint on the core looks perfect.

As to the measurements... I can't tell you as I don't have a caliper.:(
However, the size of the 'standard' EK2 varies considerably between makers so I would not worry about the discrepancy. Mr. Previtera is more than likely using an average measurement range. (I presume this information is from his excellent publication "The Iron Time"?)

So, do you think you will you be investing in a 'brother' for your 55?!!
(If you do, have a look for a Klein & Quenzer '65', they are a common maker and easy to find, but the quality of workmanship is fantastic... you
will be amazed at the differences between it and your 55!)

Dan,

Yes this 55, (see image), is in excellent condition. Almost certainly, it was never worn. In fact, the ribbon top has a couple of stitches which prevent it from being separated from the cross. I was wondering if these might have originated at the factory. If this is the case, I don't want to remove them.

Confirming - the dimensions quoted were from "The Iron Time".

I may not be in a hurry to find a 'brother' for my 55 but I'm definitely looking for some 'cousins'; currently in the process of acquiring an example from another maker. I appreciate your comments re the K&Q 65s and will bear this in mind.

danpatjoe

StudyingEK wrote: »

......In fact, the ribbon top has a couple of stitches which prevent it from being separated from the cross. I was wondering if these might have originated at the factory. If this is the case, I don't want to remove them....

StudyingEK,

No these stitches were not done at the factory, but may have been added by the recipient (do the stitches glow under black light?).
EK2's were issued wrapped in tissue paper and in a packet along with a folded length of ribbon (11" approx) which was not on the cross, and I believe in some cases, a safety pin.
The medals themselves were not worn (except maybe for a photograph after presentation), instead the ribbon was worn on the buttonhole of the tunic.

- Dan

StudyingEK

Dan,

Thanks for your input. One of the first things I did was check the ribbon under a UV light - no fluoresence so perhaps there's at least a possibility that the stitch might be period.

danpatjoe

Here's my latest addition... an unmarked Paulmann & Crone '86'.

This maker was not known to have marked his crosses as there has not been one found as yet.
Quite a few of these crosses have turned up from direct Vet purchases with issue envelopes marked Paulmann & Crone, Stuttgart, so it would be reasonable to assume that this is indeed the maker.

They are quite an ugly cross with very distinctive date lettering and obvious flaws. They are found with both magnetic and non-magnetic cores, this one being non-magnetic.

Morlar

Very useful reference information.

StudyingEK

Hi Dan,

Some time ago, (27 March 2008), you mentioned that Anton Schenkl was one of your favorite makers. Thought you might be interested in seeing a recently acquired example.

danpatjoe

StudyingEK wrote: »

Hi Dan,

Some time ago, (27 March 2008), you mentioned that Anton Schenkl was one of your favorite makers. Thought you might be interested in seeing a recently acquired example.

That is an absolute beauty!!
Congratulations.. that's the best conditioned '27' I have seen in a long, long time. They are indeed one of my favourite makers and quite easy to identify with a very distinctive swastika and 'narrow' numerals on the dates.

As a matter of interest, this maker was known as Anton Schenkls Nachfolger, which roughly translates as Anton Schenkls successor. There are EK2 packets with the company name of 'Maria Schenkl, Wien', printed on them... Many (myself included) think that this Maria is more than likely Anton's 'successor'.

Again, congrats on a fantastic find!

- Dan

StudyingEK

Hello Dan,

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I'm glad to have that 27 in my collection.

Have experienced problems in sending text and images to you. Don't know what's happening.

chem

Friend of mine in Germany has a knights cross.

Here is a pic he sent of it to me. Ill ask for him to send a better one. This is the text he sent with it.

Dieser Orden ist das beste Stück in meiner Sammlung. Ritterkreuz, Herstelller Berlin Juncker mit Expertise 8000,- bis 10000,-Euro wert.

This medal is the best piece in my collection. Knight cross, Herstelller Berlin Juncker with expert's assessment 8000, - to 10000, - euros worth.