Prostitution

aare · 14-05-2009 11:13PM

herya wrote: »

I agree. They are like Brown Thomas makeup counter girl to Tesco cashier to drunken fishmonger. Different styles essentially the same thing.

Actually almost ridiculously similar stress/headwreck equivalents too.:D

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 11:14PM

aare wrote: »

You chose to use information you were given in confidence, against my wishes, to do maximum damage in the hope of scoring points on an internet board and looking "big" and clever to all your little friends...

Your posts are so absurd I actually feel you might be trying to wind me up.

Whatever you're trying to do, you're not hurting my feelings. Your constant personal attacks are so bizarre.

I don't know what to say to you.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 11:16PM

herya wrote: »

You seem to ignore quite a lot of grey :> Apart from the general "I don't like prostitution" it's mostly rosy what you say.

No, no, I've repeatedly said - in my opinion - it is a horrible job.

Really, you can get it out of your head now if you think I have any romantic ideas about prostitution.

Having sex with strangers for money? No thanks.

Gemini Sister · 14-05-2009 11:16PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I am interested in how we can improve the working conditions for prostitutes.

Give 'your friends' bigger tips next time

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 11:17PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

Give 'your friends' bigger tips next time

I know you're joking, but for the record, I would never sleep with a prostitute. It wouldn't be sexy whatsoever.

herya · 14-05-2009 11:24PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

...

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herya · 14-05-2009 11:25PM

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herya · 14-05-2009 11:26PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

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Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 12:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a friend who considers that everyone sells themselves every day.. why is what she does so different?

Dicks in fanny. Its just isn't the same as giving a marketing presentation.

Some women (and lest we forget many of those men who partake of being a prostitute), actually enjoy the attention

Christ. Enjoys the attention? Any lady gets thats anywhere anytime she wants it. They also know they don't have to be floggin it to enjoy attention.

and it outweighs the sexual discomfort.

:eek::eek::eek::o

Maybe the spondulux outways the sexual discomfort, but the attention doesn't. Either your 'lady friend' was giving you a charming response or she's swimming up a river in Egypt

Prostitution is a very general term which is used too much to cast all prostitutes everywhere as being the same. Makes things easier to explain.

Yeah but dicks in fanny plus money. Nothing too complicated to expain there.

Terrible. That they would feel the need to damage themselves in such a manner. Most people in the western world have a degree of choices available to them. They might not be the fun or nice choices, but they pay the bills. And all else fails, there's another town or another country. People have their own choice on entering the prostitution industry. And the reasons for that choice, can usually be traced to other such choices.

Generally I agree. But that doesn't make it a healthy choice. Not your problem maybe.
Sorry about the crudity of my language but maybe it illustrates the universal reality of it, in any class, any country.

aare · 15-05-2009 12:05AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't know what to say to you.

I do not want you to say anything to me, now, or ever...you are on my "ignore" list (where you have been for weeks), I suggest you put me on yours.

Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 12:15AM

AAARGH it seems like deleting those posts might be the decent thing to do. This is only an internet argument, and as they say winning an argument on the internet is like winning the special olympics.

But if there's any chance of hurting anyone in the real world its not fun anymore. Over and out.

15-05-2009 12:24AM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

Dicks in fanny. Its just isn't the same as giving a marketing presentation.

Well, it was her "fanny", and she did what she wanted with it.

Christ. Enjoys the attention? Any lady gets thats anywhere anytime she wants it. They also know they don't have to be floggin it to enjoy attention.

Huh?

Maybe the spondulux outways the sexual discomfort, but the attention doesn't. Either your 'lady friend' was giving you a charming response or she's swimming up a river in Egypt

How colorful.

But nope, since the great thing about my friends is that I've known quite a few of them for a long time, and we've talked most of these things through. The view it as a balancing of what they want versus what they have to do to get it. When they were younger, their wants more basic, but as they got older they wanted more expensive things. Most of them do it to pay for their lifestyles.. Its not that its enjoyable work. But it is work for many people nonetheless, and its not the miserable existence that a number of posters seem wished cast.

Yeah but dicks in fanny plus money. Nothing too complicated to expain there.

Right. :rolleyes:

Generally I agree. But that doesn't make it a healthy choice. Not your problem maybe.

Not my problem? Nope. Not really. Does it affect people I know? possibly. Have I ever had to support friends from more aggressive attention? yes. Not so much anymore. Most have moved on with their lives, and found something else to do. Some haven't and still consider it as a way to live in a manner they couldn't have otherwise.

Sorry about the crudity of my language but maybe it illustrates the universal reality of it, in any class, any country.

The Crudity of your language describes nothing of the sort. Prostitution is an industry with layers upon layers of different lifestyles. from the rich to the not so rich, the doing well, the fairly ok, poor, and the very poor. And you're seeking with this kind of language to illustrate the universal reality of it?

aare · 15-05-2009 12:42AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Don't you mean brothel girls?

No, I most definately mean escort girls sometimes sneak out onto the street at night to make up a bad week...not least because actual brothels are extremelly rare - and your point is?

Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 01:15AM

Originally Posted by Gemini Sister
Dicks in fanny. Its just isn't the same as giving a marketing presentation.

Well, it was her "fanny", and she did what she wanted with it.

Absolutely. But she 'underpriced' it.

Quote:
Christ. Enjoys the attention? Any lady gets thats anywhere anytime she wants it. They also know they don't have to be floggin it to enjoy attention.

Huh?

Its not hard for a woman to get 'attention'.

Quote:
Maybe the spondulux outways the sexual discomfort, but the attention doesn't. Either your 'lady friend' was giving you a charming response or she's swimming up a river in Egypt

How colorful.

Thankyou

But nope, since the great thing about my friends is that I've known quite a few of them for a long time, and we've talked most of these things through. The view it as a balancing of what they want versus what they have to do to get it. When they were younger, their wants more basic, but as they got older they wanted more expensive things. Most of them do it to pay for their lifestyles.. Its not that its enjoyable work. But it is work for many people nonetheless, and its not the miserable existence that a number of posters seem wished cast.

Ok, klaz. My experience in this area is limited. I've known 3 girls. The irish one as discussed and 2 coloured beautiful girls I was very friendly wit when I lived in a european capital. One of them was beautiful enough to be a supermodel but not clued up enough to work it and she had a nervous breakdown. I don't know where she is now but last time I saw her she was clinging to a stairs crying for her daddy. ?
The other one was really smart and got out of it back then. We were all about 20 at the time and I don't know where she is now. She could have been smart enough to profit from it maybe, but at age 20 she told me she'd spent all her money on lingerie and coke (the lifestyle?) and wanted out. These were great girls and once I was invited to hide in a wardrope and watch the smart one with a client. It was good craic at the time but I wasn't tempted to join the lifestyle. A year later a man in a different time and place offered me alot of money for sex, yes, different but still... maybe if I hadn't had the wardrope experience I would've taken him up on it.
The irish girl is a clever girl who has suffered alot. Read back through my posts to see.
I've also know some stunning educated russian golddiggers (abroad). Those girls aren't selling sex, they are playing sex for massive prizes for life and its not 'transactions', its not the experience of most prossies. Fair play. But they're top of the game for a reason and its more to do with not having sex than having sex.
Thats all I know. You probably know older women who've come to terms over time.
But as a woman for me, selling it would be close to torture.

Quote:
Yeah but dicks in fanny plus money. Nothing too complicated to expain there.

Right.

Quote:
Generally I agree. But that doesn't make it a healthy choice. Not your problem maybe.

Not my problem? Nope. Not really. Does it affect people I know? possibly. Have I ever had to support friends from more aggressive attention? yes. Not so much anymore. Most have moved on with their lives, and found something else to do. Some haven't and still consider it as a way to live in a manner they couldn't have otherwise.
Quote:
Sorry about the crudity of my language but maybe it illustrates the universal reality of it, in any class, any country.

The Crudity of your language describes nothing of the sort. Prostitution is an industry with layers upon layers of different lifestyles. from the rich to the not so rich, the doing well, the fairly ok, poor, and the very poor. And you're seeking with this kind of language to illustrate the universal reality of it?

Yup. Sex is sex. Women are women. Beautiful or desperate. Sex with someone you don't want still goes against every instinct in your body and in the history of the species except for the money making one. But carry on!

Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 01:21AM

I don't know how to multi quote.

Instructions?

aare · 15-05-2009 01:29AM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

I don't know how to multi quote.

Instructions?

Select using the first button to the right of "quote" and when you have selected enough, hit one of the quote buttons...

It's EASY

AARRRGH · 15-05-2009 08:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't quite get this. Why haven't your own posts been deleted for the past pages (I've just reread the last 7 pages)?

She's just a drama queen who has an incredibly extreme opinion of prostitution. She believes every single prostitute has no control over any of their choices, so should not and cannot take any responsibility for anything they've done. This is because she believes every single prostitute has a heroin problem and a violent pimp. This is simply absurd, as anyone with a brain knows the worst case scenario cannot apply to everyone, and anyone who knows anything about prostitution knows there is more to the industry than street hookers and dodgy brothels.

I've tried to reason with her but she won't budge from her extremist opinion. I learnt a long time ago not to argue with extremists, but for some reason I forgot that yesterday.

Ah well, lesson learned.

herya · 15-05-2009 10:35AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

She's just a drama queen who has an incredibly extreme opinion of prostitution.

She provides valid, realistic examples from other fragments of the spectrum, different to what you happen to be familiar with, plus you've really done her a disservice. No need to be snarky.

AARRRGH · 15-05-2009 10:44AM

herya wrote: »

She provides valid, realistic examples from other fragments of the spectrum, different to what you happen to be familiar with, plus you've really done her a disservice. No need to be snarky.

Have you read her posts?

She is saying every single prostitute comes from and is living in the worst case scenario - violent pimp, heroin problem, loads of kids.

She is not saying some prostitutes come from that background and live that life - she is saying they all do.

This is not valid or realistic - it is deluded and dishonest.

herya · 15-05-2009 10:51AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Have you read her posts?

Yes I have. I don't really pay attention to generalisations, either hers or yours. I look for real examples so that I can construct my own view. Your real life examples involve escorts getting their degrees and businesses. Her examples involve underprivileged heroin addicts working in the street. I find both examples (and the relations between them) educating, I don't believe that either of you is painting the whole picture.

AARRRGH · 15-05-2009 10:58AM

herya wrote: »

Yes I have. I don't really pay attention to generalisations, either hers or yours. I look for real examples so that I can construct my own view. Your real life examples involve escorts getting their degrees and businesses. Her examples involve underprivileged heroin addicts working in the street. I find both examples (and the relations between them) educating, I don't believe that either of you is painting the whole picture.

You know I was only using the example of educated prostitutes to show the existence of non-heroin using prostitutes, so please don't try to imply I am some extremist who thinks every prostitute is living the high life. You know that is not true.

I have never said all prostitutes get degrees or start businesses or have a decent life. I have always said prostitutes come from all sorts of backgrounds and live all sorts of lives - some miserable, some normal, some decent.

Please don't misquote me to make a point.

I do not have extreme opinions like aare.

herya · 15-05-2009 11:10AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

You know I was only using the example of educated prostitutes to show the existence of non-heroin using prostitutes, so please don't try to imply I am some extremist who thinks every prostitute is living the high life. You know that is not true.

I have never said all prostitutes get degrees or start businesses or have a decent life. I have always said prostitutes come from all sorts of backgrounds and live all sorts of lives - some miserable, some normal, some decent.

Please don't misquote me to make a point.

I do not have extreme opinions like aare.

I have not misquoted you - you said that all the prostitutes you know are smart and proactive. I've never said you say all of them are, I am just describing your real examples (as opposed to declarative generalisations).

every prostitute I know (they would be the "escort" types) are smart women who are doing something with their lives. One of them just graduated with a business degree, one runs a business (cleaning company) and another is in the process of buying a restaurant in her home country.

Your actual examples say "it's a job, some of them don't like it, most people don't like their jobs, but they at least earn decent money". Your general attitude is that prostitution is a (relatively unpleasant) job, chosen consciously which you can leave when you decide so and move on.

AARRRGH · 15-05-2009 11:29AM

herya wrote: »

Your general attitude is that prostitution is a (relatively unpleasant) job, chosen consciously which you can leave when you decide so and move on.

That would be a fair analysis of my general attitude but obviously I understand in some cases it will be a difficult job to leave (e.g. if you are a heroin addict), and that when you "move on" you will always have the memories of what you did.

Life may be difficult, but only you choose the way you live it. If this means you pick a violent pimp as a partner, start doing heroin, and then realise you don't have much choice but to become a prostitute, well guess what, your choices in life have led you to where you are.

15-05-2009 11:48AM

There is an edit button also. Interesting you know how to use the bold and italics though. :rolleyes:

Gemini Sister wrote: »

Absolutely. But she 'underpriced' it.

And again it was her fanny to do what she liked with it.

Its not hard for a woman to get 'attention'.

And the relevance is?

I don't know where she is now but last time I saw her she was clinging to a stairs crying for her daddy. ?

So you have no idea what she did after that crying session? She could have continued with it, or gotten out entirely.

The other one was really smart and got out of it back then.

How did she get out, and what was she doing the last time you saw her?

We were all about 20 at the time and I don't know where she is now. She could have been smart enough to profit from it maybe, but at age 20 she told me she'd spent all her money on lingerie and coke (the lifestyle?) and wanted out. These were great girls and once I was invited to hide in a wardrope and watch the smart one with a client.

Aye, I can understand that having seen similar for myself.

It was good craic at the time but I wasn't tempted to join the lifestyle.

Totally agree.

A year later a man in a different time and place offered me alot of money for sex, yes, different but still... maybe if I hadn't had the wardrope experience I would've taken him up on it.

Last year a man in a club in Xi'an offered me roughly 1000 euro to come home with him and have sex with him and his wife. While I was earning decent money, such a bonus was extremely tempting. But I wasn't really interested. I know I wouldn't have been able to get past the physical discomfort, and having to remember it thereafter.

The irish girl is a clever girl who has suffered alot. Read back through my posts to see.
I've also know some stunning educated russian golddiggers (abroad). Those girls aren't selling sex, they are playing sex for massive prizes for life and its not 'transactions', its not the experience of most prossies. Fair play. But they're top of the game for a reason and its more to do with not having sex than having sex.
Thats all I know. You probably know older women who've come to terms over time.

I don't really know what your point is with this, since you've pretty much agreed with my experience of younger prostitutes..

But as a woman for me, selling it would be close to torture. [/I]

And I would agree with you. But I'm not making that choice for other people.

Yup. Sex is sex. Women are women. Beautiful or desperate. Sex with someone you don't want still goes against every instinct in your body and in the history of the species except for the money making one. But carry on!

Yes it does, although its amazing that male prostitutes can manage to get it up when they need to....

herya · 15-05-2009 11:59AM

AARRRGH wrote: »

That would be a fair analysis of my general attitude but obviously I understand in some cases it will be a difficult job to leave (e.g. if you are a heroin addict), and that when you "move on" you will always have the memories of what you did.

Fair enough. I'm sure there are women in business who treat it like this. I can, however, see how this attitude can be highly upsetting or offensive for those who went through traumatising, damaging experience themselves or witnessed others do it (or fail trying).

To me (based on observations I made described in my initial post here and on other accounts) your attitude and examples seem as far from the medium as are underpriviledged heroin addicts and you have no grounding calling them extreme.

If I was to hazard a guess where the medium is - in Ireland - I'd say it's probably Gemini Sister's story of this Irish girl who "got into escorting".

Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 01:07PM

To answer you klaz.

I heard that the supermodel looking one got shipped off to the funny farm but I don't know where she is now. She was schizo and talking to herself. The smart one was trying to do a secretarial type course. Perhaps she stuck with it, or perhaps she was tempted back to a lifestyle that she knew was damaging her by big money. That would be a big tempt when you're 20 with no family support. And I wrote about the other one already. So that 2 of the three girls I knew who had serious psych probs. Coincidence? Oh but maybe there were like that anyway? Prostitution attracts vulnerable girls? Or maybe what they did for money made them that way?

But how they suffer doesn't really matter anyway because at some stage along the road to misery they made a choice.

I notice how you as a mature well travelled man wouldn't do what you think is perfectly fine for fragile young girls to do cause you wouldn't want the trauma or the memories. Oh but its their choice so let them do it. Sure, why not, its a free market, and they're not your problem, someone else's daughter, sister whatever, right?

As for the russian girls, let me clarify. Those educated girls weren't having sex for money. There were professional beauties gold digging for husbands, not renting out their genitals. About 1% of ladies have the beauty brains and self control to make their fortune that way and they don't get there by shagging.

As for male prossies... I've never known any so I can't say how they get it up. But maybe *shock*horror* sex might be different for men and women?

Gemini Sister · 15-05-2009 01:22PM

Heroine is illegal because it damages the majority of people who take it (though there are exceptions to every rule e.g. the fabled junkie doctors with pure supply). Yet junkies choose to take it or at least chose to take it once.

But despite report after report after report showing that the majority of women in prostitution are damaged by it (the exceptions being the fabled business women types), society still condones it.
Why? Because the women choose to do or at least chose to do it once?

Or because the men who go to prossies don't want to see themselves badly?

aare · 15-05-2009 01:24PM

herya wrote: »

Yes I have. I don't really pay attention to generalisations, either hers or yours. I look for real examples so that I can construct my own view. Your real life examples involve escorts getting their degrees and businesses. Her examples involve underprivileged heroin addicts working in the street. I find both examples (and the relations between them) educating, I don't believe that either of you is painting the whole picture.

Actually Herya, I must have mislead you...because I was never talking about "underpriviledged heroin addicts"...that was someone else's hypothetical example I was following...

I honestly only know a handful of those (I have never taken any drugs at all myself since I was 15).

What I am saying is that women are, in my experience, invariably in prostitution because of SOME individual variation on a "worst case scenario" that doesn't leave them with any choice that is not far, far worse...

The reason is simple, because it honestly has to be that bad for you to be able to bite down every human part of your human nature, and actually get out there and DO it...

But that "worse case scenario" can be almost anything, or more likely, any combination of anything:

A disabled child and inadequate provision.
Appeasing a violent and or drug abusing spouse.
Escaping a violent and/or drug abusing spouse.
Medical bills.
Accumulated debt.
Redundancy.
Absence of family supports in *any* crisis.
Absence of social and community supports in *any* crisis.
Other

Prostitution will usually solve these problems...but once you solve these problems with prostitution you are dependent on prostitution to go on solving them...or you are back to square one...

...and that is the core dilemma that keeps women trapped...

They have an ongoing choice between a state of absolute crisis, and a state of near total solution, but at a terrible price that tends to include ruling out all future options, with no shades of grey in between...

"A little bit of prostitution" is like a weeing area in a swimming pool.

Because the "terrible price" kicks in with the defences you need to build into yourself to sell sex at all, and the stigma of ever having done it.

However...

Once a women is in that situation, making it harder for her to earn a living just makes things worse for her...

...and if a guy has sexual needs and money, he won't be doing her any moral favours by witholding both, because she wouldn't be there if she didn't need the money , and she couldn't be there if she hadn't already re-engineered her entire personality to handle the work.

aare · 15-05-2009 01:28PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

Or because the men who go to prossies don't want to see themselves badly?

I think that is a significant, and more general point.

...if you look at the political history of prostitution you will find it confirmed, over and over again...until the pill and the liberality of the 70s shook things up for good.

aare · 15-05-2009 01:35PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

As for male prossies... I've never known any so I can't say how they get it up. But maybe *shock*horror* sex might be different for men and women?

Actually, I am reliably informed that it is quite easy for a man to make a sexual fetish of intercourse with anyone who does not attract him...

It's a submission/degradation dyad, more commonly used as means of avoiding intimacy...

The only problem being that there really isn't much of a market for it.

Prostitution

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