Prostitution

herya

AARRRGH wrote: »

but to claim every prostitute has no choice is just silly.

I wouldn't say "every" but many many of them come from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds, impoverished, uneducated, abusive, drug ridden etc. Some of them simply don't know any better - it's not enough to escape from, you need something to escape to. Others do know better, but then their humiliation will keep them depressed and powerless. I find it perfectly plausible that somebody will be trapped in it for years.

aare

herya wrote: »

aare, just to clarify, I didn't mean to say that prostitutes are less intelligent, I just meant that in the whole population (any population) "smart, intelligent, rational individuals" who are capable of making life changing decisions on a rational, well thought out basis are in the minority and prostitutes are no different. There is a deeply hurtful aspect to prostitution though and informed choices are even less possible, while getting out of it is so much more difficult.

Kudos to those who succeeded.

I know you didn't mean that, don't worry...just wanted to underline that reality , along with everything else you said...

That, no matter how much of a "smart, intelligent, rational individual" someone might be under normal circumstances, it is NOT normal circumstance that put anyone in prostitution...and once you are in normal circumstances are for other people and "smart, intelligent and rational" is a fairytale you see on TV...

herya wrote: »

I actually think it's some kind of a myth. I read several articles (academic articles for my studies as well as more analytical press articles) about "escort" prostitution and what I remembered were tremendous costs of this job - they pay inflated rent, they pay their pimps or security men, their pay for all their beauty procedures and not once in a month for going out but every single day, they pay for the clothes etc, they have huge medical costs (often having discreet private medical care), they often become shopaholics (to justify what they are doing with spoiling themselves etc.). Again some escorts may be savvy and shrewd but I'm not sure it's the norm.

More than that...the higher you go up the scale, the greater, and more degrading, the expectations of the clients...and the further you are from being able to just "close your eyes and think of holy mother Ireland".

Any hooker has to develop sexual and emotional defences no-one (out side the business) can imagine. High end hookers burn out emotionally at a terrifying rate.

herya wrote: »

Honestly I could come up with a dozen of possible reasons and you could too.
Maybe she was depressed or drug dependent and couldn't hold any job.
Maybe she had a violent boyfriend turned pimp.
Maybe she had small children and nobody to leave them with and no job to feed them (think 80s) - in prostitution you don't put many hours and you work at night.
Maybe maybe maybe.

You have covered about 75% of the other women I knew...the children was a BIG one....

Joycey

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, they makes loads of cash. Certainly enough to save a few hundred per week.

I thought you said you werent generalising?

I have no problem with her saying she made bad decisions or whatever, but to claim every prostitute has no choice is just silly.

Anyway, let's stop talking about Aare.

And to claim every prostitute has a choice is silly.


@Herya, I take it you werent being entirely serious with the whole prostitute exam thing, but do you really think it should be legalised?

Many pages ago on the thread I layed out what I think should be the legislation in relation to prostitution. Heres the post if your interested:

So, all the people saying prostitution should be legalised, that it will benefit all involved etc etc. Why would this be the case? How would this benefit the prostitute? They are still engaged in prostitution, something which by and large, youd assume they wouldnt want to be. What we should be doing is taking away the poverty and lack of choice which forces the women into the situation of having to sell themselves in the first place.

What could be done in order to grant the women who are still in a position where they have to do this the same benefits that complete legalisation would bring, is to completely decriminalise the selling of yourself, so no prostitute gets punished, but crack down hard on the customers and especially the pimps/escort agencies. Enforce regular testing and treatment for STDs for the prostitutes, and create an environment where they dont feel victimised/isolated because of the current laws in place which label them as criminals. This means that anyone who beats or rapes a prostitute is far more likely to be reported then they currently are. It doesnt, however solve the problem of women who are trafficed illegaly because they are still going to be as isolated as they always were.

I cant see any additional benefit to the prostitute under full legalisation then having the position of the seller be entirely decriminalised. It gives the prostitute much more power and it means that we dont live in a society where the oppression of people who are forced into the position of having to sell themselves is legitimised by legalisation.

What benefits do you think would acrue to prostitutes under legalisation that wouldnt if we decriminalised the position of the seller and supplied all the health benefits you are proposing?

aare

AARRRGH wrote: »

to claim every prostitute has no choice is just silly.

You would be surprised how many of life's crueller realities are some idiot's idea of "too silly to really happen"...

...a lot of people said that about the Holocaust...pre-1945

AARRRGH

herya wrote: »

I wouldn't say "every" but many many of them come from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds, impoverished, uneducated, abusive, drug ridden etc. Some of them simply don't know any better - it's not enough to escape from, you need something to escape to. Others do know better, but then their humiliation will keep them depressed and powerless. I find it perfectly plausible that somebody will be trapped in it for years.

The problem is aare etc. are trying to claim the worst possible care scenario applies to every single prostitute. It's ridiculous.

In my opinion, there are two types of prostitutes: street prostitutes, and escorts. Both have a vastly different standards of living.

Unfortunately aare refuses to acknowledge this difference because she think prostitution is the same today as it was 20 years ago. It's not.

AARRRGH

Joycey wrote: »

I thought you said you werent generalising?

Well done, you got me.

Joycey wrote: »

And to claim every prostitute has a choice is silly.

If you understand the concept of "choice" you will understand the prostitute always has a choice.

I'll give a very basic example:

The prostitute goes to the Gardai, tells them she is a prostitute, and will they please drive her to a woman's shelter.

This may not be an ideal choice, but it's certainly better than having sex for money. Know what I mean?

herya

Joycey wrote: »

What benefits do you think would acrue to prostitutes under legalisation that wouldnt if we decriminalised the position of the seller and supplied all the health benefits you are proposing?

Good question. I am in favour of legalisation (mildly) because I believe that you can't eliminate prostitution (human nature, in short) and having it legalised would allow to clamp down on the other forms I described which I find disgraceful in terms of dignity as well as general health and their personal safety. If you want to work as a prostitute, you can do it in a legal, clean, supervised agency. If you want to use a prostitute, you can go to a legal, clean, supervised agency. Am I naive?...

herya

AARRRGH wrote: »

In my opinion, there are two types of prostitutes: street prostitutes, and escorts. Both have a vastly different standards of living.

You forget that the escort of today might be a street prostitute of tomorrow. Who will want an aging escort with a drug or alcohol addiction and bouts of depression? Do you honestly think all street girls started there? As far as I know it's the most common route: escort agency - common brothel - streets.

Also, there are many in betweens. Like single mothers who bring punters to their homes after the pub, with children sleeping in their bedrooms and the mommy earning few extra quids.

AARRRGH

herya wrote: »

Good question. I am in favour of legalisation (mildly) because I believe that you can't eliminate prostitution (human nature, in short) and having it legalised would allow to clamp down on the other forms I described which I find disgraceful in terms of dignity as well as general health and their personal safety. If you want to work as a prostitute, you can do it in a legal, clean, supervised agency. If you want to use a prostitute, you can go to a legal, clean, supervised agency. Am I naive?...

I don't think you are naive.

As you say, it's human nature, so we may as well make it as safe and clean as possible instead of hoping it goes away.

aare

AARRRGH wrote: »

The problem is aare etc. are trying to claim the worst possible care scenario applies to every single prostitute. It's ridiculous.

In my opinion, there are two types of prostitutes: street prostitutes, and escorts. Both have a vastly different standards of living.

Unfortunately aare refuses to acknowledge this difference because she think prostitution is the same today as it was 20 years ago. It's not.

You know even less about what I think than you do about the realities of prostitution today.

AARRRGH

herya wrote: »

You forget that the escort of today might be a street prostitute of tomorrow. Who will want an aging escort with a drug or alcohol addiction and bouts of depression? Do you honestly think all street girls started there? As far as I know it's the most common route: escort agency - common brothel - streets.

Also, there are many in betweens. Like single mothers who bring punters to their homes after the pub, with children sleeping in their bedrooms and the mommy earning few extra quids.

Ah yeah, anything can happen in this life. The only point I was making is that not every prostitute is on the street desperate for cash.

Joycey

AARRRGH wrote: »

If you understand the concept of "choice" you will understand the prostitute always has a choice.

I'll give a very basic example:

The prostitute goes to the Gardai, tells them she is a prostitute, and will they please drive her to a woman's shelter.

This may not be an ideal choice, but it's certainly better than having sex for money. Know what I mean?

OK. Il show you why the "choice" which you are saying exists for the prostitute in entirely trivial in a lot of instances, using two examples which Ive already given you several times.

An AIDS infected, Malawian orphan has no money or food and is going to starve unless they accept money for sex. That orphan is "choosing" to be a prostitute.

I put a gun to your head and tell you to do something, you do it. You chose to do it.

Now il introduce a new example, courtesy of Herya: a woman has two kids, a violent pimp and a 90euro a day heroin habit. She is "choosing" to be a prostitute, but to say that it is a free choice is as trivial and meaningless in the real world as it is to say you chose to do whatever I told you when I had a gun to your head.

Now, I know this is at the far end of the spectrum. So, apparently, due to the first hand accounts of the other two people who appear to have experience in the thread (and my own limited exposure to prostitutes when I was working in an offlicence), are yours. The vast majority of prostitutes are not astute business people, coldly calculating the potential earnings compared to the psychological trauma and humiliation they experience by being dehumanised on a day to day basis. Instead they are vulnerable people, given a set of extremely bad options and choosing the least bad one.

I dont see why we should legitimise their objectification and dehumanisation by legalising prostitution for the sake of the people who are exploiting them, or for the 1/1000 prostitutes who are the kind you seem to know so many of.

There you have it.

AARRRGH

aare wrote: »

You know even less about what I think than you do about the realities of prostitution today.

Every single one of your posts is an insult.

Quite amazing, really.

aare

AARRRGH wrote: »

The prostitute goes to the Gardai, tells them she is a prostitute, and will they please drive her to a woman's shelter.

• The Gardai are not allowed to drive her anywhere.
• Women's shelters only have limited places and waiting lists. The only exceptions are for cases of extreme violence, and sometimes, even not then.
• Women's shelters will not even wait list a women just to get her out of prostitution, that is not their job.

aare

AARRRGH wrote: »

Every single one of your posts is an insult.

Pointing out the obvious fact that you have no idea what I think and should not be claiming to, is an insult?

On which particular planet would that be?

aare

Joycey wrote: »

The vast majority of prostitutes are not astute business people, coldly calculating the potential earnings compared to the psychological trauma and humiliation they experience by being dehumanised on a day to day basis. Instead they are vulnerable people, given a set of extremely bad options and choosing the least bad one.

Why couldn't I have put it so succinctly?

Because that IS the whole truth...

AARRRGH

Joycey wrote: »

Now il introduce a new example, courtesy of Herya: a woman has two kids, a violent pimp and a 90euro a day heroin habit. She is "choosing" to be a prostitute, but to say that it is a free choice is as trivial and meaningless in the real world as it is to say you chose to do whatever I told you when I had a gun to your head.

Hang on. You've skipped a bit.

She chose to have two kids.
She chose to start injecting heroin.
She chose (unfortunately) a very bad partner.
She then chose to work as a prostitute.

All are terrible choices given her circumstances, but nevertheless, they are choices.

I agree 100% this woman needs help, but she needs help in general, and her problems should not be blamed on prostitution.

Also, and I know you won't like this, did she really have to work as a prostitute? Really, really? Could she not have chosen a different path, for example, to not work as a prostitute? Of course she could. But she didn't.

I am not saying it is an easy choice (obviously) but she still has to choose to become a prostitute. She didn't wake up one morning and magically realise she had turned into a prostitute.

Joycey wrote: »

or for the 1/1000 prostitutes who are the kind you seem to know so many of.

If you really think only 1 in 1000 prostitutes have a choice, well then, what can I say...

AARRRGH

aare wrote: »

Pointing out the obvious fact that you have no idea what I think and should not be claiming to, is an insult?

On which particular planet would that be?

Another insult.

Well done. You are a very mature woman.

aare

herya wrote: »

it's not enough to escape from, you need something to escape to.

Now THAT is worth getting out the needle and wool and cross stitching into a sampler to hang on the wall.

herya

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ah yeah, anything can happen in this life. The only point I was making is that not every prostitute is on the street desperate for cash.

I think that the point you were making is that escorts and street prostitutes are two different worlds, while I'm trying to provide arguments that they are two ends of one continuum, with good chance of crossing over.

Maybe not even ends. High end would be these million dollar babes servicing politicians and sworn to silence. Low end would be motorway hookers with water bottles. That makes escorts and street girls even closer.

AARRRGH

aare wrote: »

• The Gardai are not allowed to drive her anywhere.
• Women's shelters only have limited places and waiting lists. The only exceptions are for cases of extreme violence, and sometimes, even not then.
• Women's shelters will not even wait list a women just to get her out of prostitution, that is not their job.

Ah, we're getting somewhere. At last.

So you agree she could choose to do the above, but would fail?

That's interesting, so you admit she is capable of choosing.

Now let's try a different example.

This time she is going to choose to go on the dole. Or do a FAS course. Or take advantage of any of the different Government support schemes.

Do you believe that's not possible. If so, why?

AARRRGH

herya wrote: »

I think that the point you were making is that escorts and street prostitutes are two different worlds, while I'm trying to provide arguments that they are two ends of one continuum, with good chance of crossing over.

Maybe not even ends. High end would be these million dollar babes servicing politicians and sworn to silence. Low end would be motorway hookers with water bottles. That makes escorts and street girls even closer.

Tbh you're just speculating that escorts will become street hookers.

Some might, most probably won't.

I think, in general, street prostitutes and "escorts" come from different backgrounds, and have access to different resources.

It would be fair to say they're not quite the same, and live quite different lives, but both are prostitutes.

aare

herya wrote: »

I think that the point you were making is that escorts and street prostitutes are two different worlds, while I'm trying to provide arguments that they are two ends of one continuum, with good chance of crossing over.

Maybe not even ends. High end would be these million dollar babes servicing politicians and sworn to silence. Low end would be motorway hookers with water bottles. That makes escorts and street girls even closer.

Actually, in some countries (Germany, US, UK) they are, effectively, two different worlds...but in others, like France and Ireland, they are less extreme and cross over constantly...

...and so do the clients...

AARRRGH

aare wrote: »

Actually, in some countries (Germany, US, UK) they are, effectively, two different worlds...but in others, like France and Ireland, they are less extreme and cross over constantly...

...and so do the clients...

I don't know about that.

Escorting and street prostitution are very different in Ireland. Just take a walk around the canal and then go to the escorting websites... big difference between the girls. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the difference is poverty/heroin versus working or middle class background.

Joycey

AARRRGH wrote: »

This time she is going to choose to go on the dole. Or do a FAS course. Or take advantage of any of the different Government support schemes.

Do you believe that's not possible. If so, why?

Because you cant bring your two kids, your violent pimp boyfriend and a load of heroin into a fas course. Nor can you eradicate whatever black eyes, bruises, cuts, needlemarks or any other signs (visible or not) of a life which has been spent in miserable surrounding.

herya

AARRRGH wrote: »

Tbh you're just speculating that escorts will become street hookers.

Some might, most probably won't.

True, but I'm inclined to believe there is some flow.

Again, something I've read - street prostitutes only very rarely start young there. They mostly come from agencies or brothels when they age or cause problems. An independent escort with her own business might be too far in the chain but the agency ones (especially those with issues) are more likely to end up there.

aare

AARRRGH wrote: »

This time she is going to choose to go on the dole. Or do a FAS course. Or take advantage of any of the different Government support schemes.

Do you believe that's not possible. If so, why?

If the dole, or any existing support scheme was available to her and met her urgent financial needs she wouldn't be a prostitute in the first place.

In terms of placing women who have been in prostitution FAS is so much worse than it's usual "useless" as to be a cruel joke...and, BTW, how will she meet the urgent financial needs that drove her to prostitution in the first place while she find out the hard way that was just a useless hiding to nowhere?

aare

herya wrote: »

True, but I'm inclined to believe there is some flow.

Again, something I've read - street prostitutes only very rarely start young there. They mostly come from agencies or brothels when they age or cause problems. An independent escort with her own business might be too far in the chain but the agency ones (especially those with issues) are more likely to end up there.

Actually the escort girls tend to sneak out on the streets to "make up the week" when business is slow in Ireland...

aare

Joycey wrote: »

Because you cant bring your two kids, your violent pimp boyfriend and a load of heroin into a fas course. Nor can you eradicate whatever black eyes, bruises, cuts, needlemarks or any other signs (visible or not) of a life which has been spent in miserable surrounding.

I was so busy trying to retain control of my serene admiration for AARRRGH that I actually FORGOT that part...

AARRRGH

Joycey wrote: »

Because you cant bring your two kids, your violent pimp boyfriend and a load of heroin into a fas course. Nor can you eradicate whatever black eyes, bruises, cuts, needlemarks or any other signs (visible or not) of a life which has been spent in miserable surrounding.

OK. So in your extreme worst case scenario case, the woman has a horrendous life. I think we can both agree giving up prostitution shouldn't be her first priority. She should try to leave her violent partner, find a new home, try to get off heroin, and then finally try to give up prostitution. But until she tackles her initial problems (boyfriend, home, heroin) she's probably going nowhere.

It'll be tough, but it can be done. Women do it everyday, WITHOUT having the income prostitution provides.

Giving up and saying she has no choice is defeatist and obviously will lead to failure.