Prostitution

aare · 14-05-2009 10:01PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't know about that.

Escorting and street prostitution are very different in Ireland. Just take a walk around the canal and then go to the escorting websites... big difference between the girls. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the difference is poverty/heroin versus working or middle class background.

...and you would guess wrong...

There is a lot of heroin in the escort agencies and the profile of street women is surprisingly middle class.

herya · 14-05-2009 10:02PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

This time she is going to choose to go on the dole. Or do a FAS course. Or take advantage of any of the different Government support schemes.
Do you believe that's not possible. If so, why?

You see you're talking about a level-headed, motivated, rational individual again.

They are talking about a traumatised, sick, terrorised woman with two children to take care of.

It doesn't always translate, and definitely not easily.

I think that the whole point is that whatever got you into prostitution in the first place, the whole experience is so traumatising for some/most (dunno?) that it's more like coming out of drug dependency. You can't just wake up one morning and shake it off. It's a slow and painful process at best.

You describe it as bad career choice.

Drug dependency, career choice - big difference.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:02PM

aare wrote: »

If the dole, or any existing support scheme was available to her and met her urgent financial needs she wouldn't be a prostitute in the first place.

In terms of placing women who have been in prostitution FAS is so much worse than it's usual "useless" as to be a cruel joke...and, BTW, how will she meet the urgent financial needs that drove her to prostitution in the first place while she find out the hard way that was just a useless hiding to nowhere?

Loads of people have urgent financial needs but they don't choose to become prostitutes.

There are plenty of single mothers from disadvantaged areas who aren't working as prostitutes.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:03PM

aare wrote: »

Actually the escort girls tend to sneak out on the streets to "make up the week" when business is slow in Ireland...

Don't you mean brothel girls?

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:05PM

herya wrote: »

They are talking about a traumatised, sick, terrorised woman with two children to take care of.

But they are trying to imply all prostitutes are traumatised, sick, terrorised women with two children to take care of.

They are totally closed to the concept that there are different types of prostitutes, some very desperate, and some not desperate at all.

Surely you agree with me that it is very close minded to assume every prostitute has no choice?

Gemini Sister · 14-05-2009 10:05PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

The problem is aare etc. are trying to claim the worst possible care scenario applies to every single prostitute. It's ridiculous.

In my opinion, there are two types of prostitutes: street prostitutes, and escorts. Both have a vastly different standards of living.

AARRRGH, there are as many different kind of prostitutes as there are women. There is a spectrum with a junkie on one end and Heather Mills on the other.

AARRRGH sex for money is not the same kind of transaction as labour for money. They can both be exploitive but sex is an intimate thing for a woman. To sell her body a woman has to 'distance'/disassociate from it. Once this has been achieved and it becomes 'normalised' she can keep on doing it, but that doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.

I know an Irish girl from a middle class background who got involved in 'escorting'. She was approached by people when she was in a vulnerable situation. She was very niave and got involved thinking she could handle. When she tried to stop she was beaten up. Why did she continue to do it for a further three year after that?
- Money. Several hundred by servicing one man after another in a shift v. minimum wage. She didn't have the skills to do anything else.
- Addiction. She needed coke to help with the disassociation. vicious circle.
- Low self esteem. Even the healthiest young girls have fragile self esteem and she wasn't one of them.
- A bizarre kind of pride. Admitting she'd made a big mistke getting involved would break down the protective barrier of disassociation, and open the floodgates on a lot of hurt.
- The company of hardened people made it seem 'normal'.

If you met one of her former customers they'd tell you she enjoyed the sex. She found the strength to break the lifestyle two years ago and is getting prof help. She hasn't had sex with anyone since.

I've known some foreign girls as well. One had a breakdown, another handled it better.
Maybe a smart older woman would have the strength to profit from it. But prostitution attracts vulnerable types. Its not a question of does letting strange men puts ****s in you for a living damage you as a person. Its a case of degrees of damage v. degrees of personal resilience. Lets not ne naive about it.

herya · 14-05-2009 10:08PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

But they are trying to imply all prostitutes are traumatised, sick, terrorised women with two children to take care of.

I don't read it this way. They present likely scenarios that seem really plausible. It's not to say that yours doesn't.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:08PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

AARRRGH, there are as many different kind of prostitutes as there are women. There is a spectrum with a junkie on one end and Heather Mills on the other.

AARRRGH sex for money is not the same kind of transaction as labour for money. They can both be exploitive but sex is an intimate thing for a woman. To sell her body a woman has to 'distance'/disassociate from it. Once this has been achieved and it becomes 'normalised' she can keep on doing it, but that doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.

I agree.

Gemini Sister wrote: »

I know an Irish girl from a middle class background who got involved in 'escorting'. She was approached by people when she was in a vulnerable situation. She was very niave and got involved thinking she could handle. When she tried to stop she was beaten up. Why did she continue to do it for a further three year after that?
- Money. Several hundred by servicing one man after another in a shift v. minimum wage. She didn't have the skills to do anything else.
- Addiction. She needed coke to help with the disassociation. vicious circle.
- Low self esteem. Even the healthiest young girls have fragile self esteem and she wasn't one of them.
- A bizarre kind of pride. Admitting she'd made a big mistke getting involved would break down the protective barrier of disassociation, and open the floodgates on a lot of hurt.
- The company of hardened people made it seem 'normal'.

If you met one of her former customers they'd tell you she enjoyed the sex. She found the strength to break the lifestyle two years ago and is getting prof help. She hasn't had sex with anyone since.

I've known some foreign girls as well. One had a breakdown, another handled it better.
Maybe a smart older woman would have the strength to profit from it. But prostitution attracts vulnerable types. Its not a question of does letting strange men puts ****s in you for a living damage you as a person. Its a case of degrees of damage v. degrees of personal resilience. Lets not ne naive about it.

Yep, there are some bastards who out there running brothels. Thankfully they are in the minority, but they do exist.

I don't at all think it's a nice job, or the girls like it, but to say none of the women have a choice is silly.

That's the only point I am defending here: some women may not have a choice, but many do.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:09PM

herya wrote: »

I don't read it this way. They present likely scenarios that seem really plausible. It's not to say that yours doesn't.

No, no, read back over their old posts. I got them to clarify that they believe all women who work as prostitutes are trapped and have no choice.

There is no misunderstanding here.

aare · 14-05-2009 10:13PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

OK. So in your extreme worst case scenario case, the woman has a horrendous life. I think we can both agree giving up prostitution shouldn't be her first priority.

So, you agree that staying in prostitution is the best of her bad choices at that point?

Me too...

AARRRGH wrote: »

She should try to leave her violent partner,

Trouble is, as long as she is working he will always be able to find her...

Now imagine for a minute trying to perform YOUR regular job (whatever that is) under circumstance where, at least once a day someone much bigger and stronger than you walks in at will and beats the bejaysus out of you...how long do you think that would be workable for under ANY circunstances?

Let alone strung out on heroin, with no money, because clients are notoriously disinclined to go near a woman while her fella is beating the crap out of her...and, believe it or not, prostitutes are just ordinary human beings who find it just as hard (impossible?) to function in that kind of distress as anyone else does...

So she has him back just to be able to have the peace to work enough to get her head straight, feed the kids, pay the rent and keep the utilities...

It cost about £20,000 (a lot of it mine, and worth EVERY penny), in the early 90, to get a non-drug using, intelligent, educated working class woman and her kids out of prostitution and to very basic safety from a dangerous, drug abusing partner...

You write the check and we can all met up in town and spring another one before 3am...

But otherwise, who on earth do you think will finance that?

aare · 14-05-2009 10:18PM

herya wrote: »

You see you're talking about a level-headed, motivated, rational individual again.

I dunno...I would have to take issue with a rational individual going with 100 miles of FAS...

...ok...let's hope the new guy will shake it up into something useful...but I am NOT holding my breath...

FAS put tremendous consistent effort into actively stonewalling any attempt to understand, let alone meet the needs of women trying to escape prostitution...

Have swung my own pick at that particular coal face for too long I cannot even think about it without becoming INCANDESCENT with rage.

I am still trying to work out who's needs FAS ever have met...

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:19PM

aare wrote: »

So, you agree that staying in prostitution is the best of her bad choices at that point?

At that point, but not for many years. I am talking about weeks or months, not years.

aare wrote: »

Now imagine for a minute trying to perform YOUR regular job (whatever that is) under circumstance where, at least once a day someone much bigger and stronger than you walks in at will and beats the bejaysus out of you...how long do you think that would be workable for under ANY circunstances?

I'd go to the Gardai and kick up a fuss until they sorted it out.

That is a choice I would make. The prostitute may not make that same choice, but, really, that is her choice...

aare wrote: »

Let alone strung out on heroin, with no money, because clients are notoriously disinclined to go near a woman while her fella is beating the crap out of her...and, believe it or not, prostitutes are just ordinary human beings who find it just as hard (impossible?) to function in that kind of distress as anyone else does...

So she has him back just to be able to have the peace to work enough to get her head straight, feed the kids, pay the rent and keep the utilities...

It cost about £20,000 (a lot of it mine, and worth EVERY penny), in the early 90, to get a non-drug using, intelligent, educated working class woman and her kids out of prostitution and to very basic safety from a dangerous, drug abusing partner...

You write the check and we can all met up in town and spring another one before 3am...

But otherwise, who on earth do you think will finance that?

Your example is very much worst case scenario.

The mistake you are making is you believe it applies to all prostitutes. It doesn't. It just applies to the few worst case examples.

There are many, many prostitutes without violent partners, a heroin problem, and a load of kids...

So, I agree with you that in a worst case scenario options are limited and are certainly difficult, but only in the worst case scenario!

Joycey · 14-05-2009 10:20PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, no, read back over their old posts. I got them to clarify that they believe all women who work as prostitutes are trapped and have no choice.

There is no misunderstanding here.

Sorry now but thats complete BS. How many times do I have to point out that "choice" is a meaningless term if the chooser cannot objectively evaluate the options, or is forced to choose between almost equally bad alternatives?

The whole topic of the thread (i think) is about whether prostitution should be legalised or not. Earlier you were saying it should be, so wouldnt that make legalisation the point your trying to defend?

And to tie the choice thing in with the legalisation thing: I dont think that the minority (are we at least agreed that its a minority?) who choose to do work that the majority find dehumanising, in the complete absence of any financial pressure, but just because they like to earn loads of money or enjoy the lifestyle, should have the luxury of their customers not being prosecuted, when it means that we are all implicated in the legitimisation of the horrific wrong done to the majority by legalisation.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:21PM

Shall we call it a night and continue this tomorrow?

aare · 14-05-2009 10:21PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

AARRRGH sex for money is not the same kind of transaction as labour for money. They can both be exploitive but sex is an intimate thing for a woman. To sell her body a woman has to 'distance'/disassociate from it. Once this has been achieved and it becomes 'normalised' she can keep on doing it, but that doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU...

Joycey · 14-05-2009 10:23PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Shall we call it a night and continue this tomorrow?

Im game

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:24PM

Joycey wrote: »

Sorry now but thats complete BS. How many times do I have to point out that "choice" is a meaningless term if the chooser cannot objectively evaluate the options, or is forced to choose between almost equally bad alternatives?

Hang on.

They either can or can't choose.

You are saying they can't choose.

End of story.

Joycey wrote: »

The whole topic of the thread (i think) is about whether prostitution should be legalised or not. Earlier you were saying it should be, so wouldnt that make legalisation the point your trying to defend?

Yes, if we go back a few dozen pages that was the topic.

Joycey wrote: »

And to tie the choice thing in with the legalisation thing: I dont think that the minority (are we at least agreed that its a minority?) who choose to do work that the majority find dehumanising, in the complete absence of any financial pressure, but just because they like to earn loads of money or enjoy the lifestyle, should have the luxury of their customers not being prosecuted, when it means that we are all implicated in the legitimisation of the horrific wrong done to the majority by legalisation.

You only want the customers prosecuted because you think they are sexually assaulting the women.

I have said again and again, you cannot compare sexual assault to paying a consenting woman for sex.

The man calls an escort, goes to her apartment, and pays her for sex. This is not sexual assault. Even the courts agree, and we know how conservative Ireland is.

aare · 14-05-2009 10:26PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

So, I agree with you that in a worst case scenario options are limited and are certainly difficult, but only in the worst case scenario!

Are you still not getting it yet?

Women wind up in prostitution BECAUSE the "worst case scenario" is suddenly the only life they have and prostitution is the only realistic way they have to deal with and survive it.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:28PM

aare wrote: »

Are you still not getting it yet?

Women wind up in prostitution BECAUSE the "worst case scenario" is suddenly the only life they have and prostitution is the only realistic way they have to deal with and survive it.

No, you still don't get it.

You think worst case scenario is normal. It's not.

Try to see open your mind a bit and see your terrible scenario does not apply to all prostitutes.

It'll apply to some... but you know what? Some taxi drivers will die in car crashes. That doesn't mean they all die in car crashes.

aare · 14-05-2009 10:30PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Loads of people have urgent financial needs but they don't choose to become prostitutes.

...and I don't suppose it would occur to you that might be because, for some reason (and they vary), they have smaller, less urgent, more manageable financial needs?

aare · 14-05-2009 10:34PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

You think worst case scenario is normal. It's not.

It most certainly IS for women in prostitution, whether it suits you to believe it or not, that's what they REALLY have to deal with...

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:34PM

aare wrote: »

...and I don't suppose it would occur to you that might be because, for some reason (and they vary), they have smaller, less urgent, more manageable financial needs?

If you go to the website askaboutmoney.com there is a section called "Money Makeover" or something like that and you will see there are many people with serious financial problems. I'm talking about unemployed with massive debts and "no options".

But they don't become prostitutes... why? Because they will find another option.

I fully, fully accept some (minority) of prostitutes believe have no other option, but you don't speak for all prostitutes. They are not all desperate women who need to be saved. Women are more competent that you realise, and are able to make decisions which affect their sexuality.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 10:38PM

aare wrote: »

It most certainly IS for women in prostitution, whether it suits you to believe it or not, that's what they REALLY have to deal with...

What can I say to you... ah believe whatever you want, it's harmless.

Yes, all prostitutes, even the ones I know who appear to be normal, have violent pimp partners, a heroin problem, and a bunch of kids.

aare wrote: »

Have a nice sleep and sweet dreams of all the damage your spiteful little "outing" to score points today has brought into my life, and that of my family, now, and in the future.

You should feel VERY proud of yourself for that.

I don't know what your problem is, but not all people are out to get you. I certainly am not. I feel a bit sorry for you, really.

Even your signature says a lot about you: Friendly hint: REAL, HOT, men want to help weaker people, not hurt them.

Stop assuming the worst about people.

herya · 14-05-2009 10:56PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

...

...

Gemini Sister · 14-05-2009 10:58PM

AAARGH.

You are drawing a line of differentiation between street girls and high class prossies.

Think of it a different way. They both make their money doing the same thing. The same physical thing. Think about it.

With one its dressed up with fancy hotels and facials and cleaner men and that can give the girl a false sense of security and control.

But she's going through the same phsyical and psychological process as the street junkie. Does fancy lingerie really offer that much psychological protection?

Pretty Woman has alot to answer for. Don't be conditioned by the culture we live in.
Why, after 40 years are Holland and Sweden reversing their policies? Because the experiment didn't work. Vulnerable girls are still getting damaged.

And as the old saying goes, its the ones who don't ask for money you have to be wary of

aare · 14-05-2009 11:02PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

But she's going through the same phsyical and psychological process as the street junkie. Does fancy lingerie really offer that much psychological protection?

Actually, she is often going through a lot worse. The high paying clients tend to play a lot of head games as well as expecting and demanding things no-one would dare ask a street girl for...

High class prostitutes are usually at far greater mental and emotional risk as a result.

herya · 14-05-2009 11:05PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

You are drawing a line of differentiation between street girls and high class prossies.

Think of it a different way. They both make their money doing the same thing. The same physical thing. Think about it.

With one its dressed up with fancy hotels and facials and cleaner men and that can give the girl a false sense of security and control.

I agree. They are like Brown Thomas makeup counter girl to Tesco cashier to drunken fishmonger. Different styles essentially the same thing.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 11:06PM

Just one last thing before I head to bed...

Life is never black and white. There is always a lot of grey. Believing everything must be at one extreme or another; only believing in absolutes; that is never right.

The very nature of extremes suggests exceeding the ordinary, usual, or expected. It is the farthest possible point from a center. It ignores everything that is grey.

If you can find me any random topic where the extreme opinion is the only valid opinion, I will accept that all prostitutes have no choice and are living in hell.

herya · 14-05-2009 11:09PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

The very nature of extremes suggests exceeding the ordinary, usual, or expected. It is the farthest possible point from a center. It ignores everything that is grey.

You seem to ignore quite a lot of grey :> Apart from the general "I don't like prostitution" it's mostly rosy what you say.

AARRRGH · 14-05-2009 11:11PM

Gemini Sister wrote: »

AAARGH.

You are drawing a line of differentiation between street girls and high class prossies.

Think of it a different way. They both make their money doing the same thing. The same physical thing. Think about it.

With one its dressed up with fancy hotels and facials and cleaner men and that can give the girl a false sense of security and control.

But she's going through the same phsyical and psychological process as the street junkie. Does fancy lingerie really offer that much psychological protection?

Pretty Woman has alot to answer for. Don't be conditioned by the culture we live in.
Why, after 40 years are Holland and Sweden reversing their policies? Because the experiment didn't work. Vulnerable girls are still getting damaged.

And as the old saying goes, its the ones who don't ask for money you have to be wary of

No, no, I'm not talking about "high class prostitutes". I'm talking about girls who don't work on the street. They are not the minority.

We don't need to keep coming back to prostitution being a hard life - I know it is.

I am interested in how we can improve the working conditions for prostitutes.

Prostitution

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