Poor Road Signage Pictures

corktina · 15-02-2006 04:28PM

MT wrote:

corktina, the way in which pedestrian crossings are marked and signed down there is a bugbear of mine. The reason is that not only do the signs not match the marking (broken lines on sign, solid on street) which can be confusing enough but throw in traffic lights and you've got a baffling choice of three solid lines in front of you at a junction. If distracted it can be difficult to quickly figure out which one applies to you the motorist and which mark the crossing.

There's no such problem up here as pedestrian crossings are marked by metal studs ensuring they match the symbol on the sign and can't be confused with the white stop line at the lights. But even if authorities won't go to this expense/hassle down there why not at least paint broken lines for the crossing. This would clearly differentiate the crossing from the stop line.

As for that picture, could the LA not have got away with just the one post displaying a crossing sign on each side. They could have moved it to this side of the crossing to avoid the reduced visibility caused by that tree. The option of two posts is just needlessly cluttered.

it isnt at a junction...it's half way down the main street, almost invisible and totally illegal imho......in short, a mess....

MT · 15-02-2006 04:42PM

Yeah, I've seen that type of feature in other southern towns. Is it illegal or are the rules governing crossings in the Republic different from those in the UK. I mean, are those things like zebra crossings? Must traffic stop if you step out onto one?

And if they are illegal and the authority couldn't budget for a proper crossing couldn't they just have put up a warning sign for to make drivers aware of pedestrians in the vicinity without the misleading/unlawful crossing?

murphaph · 15-02-2006 05:49PM

The crossing in the pic looks completely disastrous tbh. I'm all for making the streetscape more pedestrian friendly, but at least do it safely and give drivers notice before the bloody crossing, not after it!

corktina · 15-02-2006 06:39PM

i posted it because I keep failing to see the crossings (there are several of them around town ) and the pedestrians clearly think THEY have right of way.........

murphaph · 16-02-2006 06:15PM

MT wrote:

Excellent, Murphaph, it's a result nonetheless. One small step and all that... If you just had one person per town badgering the local authority over signposting there'd be a revolution in standards.

But that new post you mention is interesting as it seems likely that another finger post will be installed. This really would be unsatisfactory. Modern, functional traffic signage should have nothing to do with ridiculous finger posts. What's with the fetish down there for the things, after all there are virtual none used for direction signage in NI whatsoever. Why, if the Republic's sign manual has been virtually copied verbatim from the UK version, do they still insist on the use of this outdated and inferior method of displaying signs?

Fingerposts have got to go if the Republic is ever going to improve road signage substantially.

Arrrghhhh, they just switched the damn fingerpost panels onto the new pole! Jesus do they have any clue?
See pics for before and after. What a pointless exercise. They could have cut that new pole in two and installed proper signage that would actually stand the test of time like the plate sign already at the junction!

MT · 16-02-2006 07:12PM

Good grief, talk about a bodge job.

When they'd already erected a proper plate sign why unearth did they go back to fingers for the rest? This layout needlessly creates two points of focus and excessive clutter when all they needed do here was use two taller posts and mount all the signage in plate form on these. Indeed, they're obviously so dedicated to finger posts that they've left up the second superfluous Clonsilla sign. Here's an example of the exact same half-arsed approach. Despite erecting a new plate sign for the R581 and its destination they've failed to remove the original fingers. And given the popularity of finger posts, I wouldn't be surprised if they take down the plate versions when the duplications eventually noticed!

Now all that's needed is for a workman to appear with black and white paint to apply the good old zebra stripes.

Another flaw, according to the book, is that stop sign not being mounted at the top of its post.

This pic shows what also looks like a fairly new post demonstrating that fingers are still very much in vogue down there. Likewise, it too is a mess with the blue parking sign virtually on top of the one for the holy well. Then there’s the traditional advertising finger.:rolleyes:

But of course all of this is to be expected when the manual setting out signage guidelines still permits the use of finger posts. As long as this remains the case they will always be popular with local authorities as they require the least effort and thought to erect. You can just stick ‘em in anywhere and then twist the signs to a rough approximation of the road layout!

MT · 16-02-2006 07:51PM

Another failing of fingers is that they contravene the book’s guidelines on anti-rotation. Signs are supposed to be fitted with brackets that have indentations to provide grip yet these are absent on fingers. That’s probably why so many end up twisted. In this pic from another post the yield sign has the correct non-slip indented brackets but the fingers have no such extra grip.

MT · 16-02-2006 07:59PM

Pic: It can be done! These cyclists were probably as shocked as I am to see a tourist attraction signed without using a finger post. No wonder they stopped to take a picture.:D

Pic: Back to the usual standard here. But at least it has brown and white stripes so you get something colourful to look at while you're wondering whether the fingers are still pointing in the right direction.:rolleyes:

This post also appears to be capped in the 'modern' plastic stripes. However, the boffin that came up with this labour saving feature clearly didn't concern himself with sign rotation. Because if he had he'd have realised that these bands make it more likely. Their smooth surfaces provide finger brackets with even less grip and if they come loose it doesn't matter how tightly a sign's attached when it gets next gets knocked. Sheer genius!

MT · 16-02-2006 09:01PM

Pic: And another reason not to use stripes - they're kinda difficult to maintain once you've bolted on a load of signs. I wonder how tourists know that the numbers without km above are in miles? If you're not used to the 'system' it might not be instantly obvious.

murphaph · 16-02-2006 09:37PM

There is no real reason to sign Dublin or Blanchardstown at this location. The next town of significance along the R121 from this point is Clonsilla. This is considered sufficient signage under the rules and I agree-we need to get people to use route numbers like the british do. Half the people in Ireland don't even know the primary route numbers!

This is what the council should have done at this spot, together with adding a plate for Lucan bound traffic instead of that awful fingerpost.

MT · 18-02-2006 12:12AM

Yeah, couldn’t agree more. I’m not familiar with the area there but I think I’m right in believing that’s a sort of a cross roads on a bend with the R121 being the priority road. Up here, depending on the junction’s importance, you’d have an advance map sign showing the bend, cross etc with the next destination on the R121 shown; then a plates pointing down the minor roads at the junction and two plates on each side of the main road showing directions in both ways for traffic joining the R121 – there’d be no direction signage for traffic already on the R121 as is the case here. Further destinations, such as Blanch. and Dublin in this case would be shown on a route reminder/mileage sign some time after the junction. Essentially three stages of signage, as in these unrelated pictures – advance, at the junction and route reminder with distance to further destinations (could only find primary).

Usually there would be no more than two or three destinations signed on the flag plates at the actual junction. Destinations further away would be left until the route reminder sign. The latter also takes care of distances reducing clutter on the pointing along signs. Up here distances are usually only printed on pointing along signs at minor junctions with no advance or reminder signage.

This three step approach to signing important junctions is followed in places in the Republic – Donegal has had a lot of this new signage erected – but often it’s lacking. I think many local authorities are finding it difficult to adapt to this new comprehensive form of signage when for generations they’ve signed everything not just from the actual junction but from one single post. These signs frequently encompass the very opposite of the clear three step approach with just about every destination, distance, tourist attraction, B&B, etc. being signed from this one point – it’s total info overload!

Where advanced signage is used in the Republic I feel it often suffers from a lack of a map layout plumping instead for the less description stack type. Indeed, you really only see the former down there for roundabouts and motorway or dual carriageway fork signs. This is a pity for while the stack layout is fine for a straight road with a routine junction the map version is so much more informative when there’s a curve or peculiar junction shape. Stack and map.

Half the people in Ireland don't even know the primary route numbers!

This is a problem both north and south with everyone using the 'such and such road' for directions. So we could always adopt the American system of solely route numbers and cardinal compass points.

I could just imagine the chaos!

MT · 18-02-2006 01:05AM

I should make it clear that the stack form of advance signage is still used up here but it appears to becoming less common as map layouts are opted for more and more. This seems to be signage policy right across the UK with stacks seemingly being phased out.

The benefit of map signs is that you can provide much more detailed information about the junction or road ahead.

When it comes to route confirmation signs there’s a strange inconsistency down there with some signs consisting of one plate – as in the UK – while others have the route number on a separate plate attached above. The latter seems like more hassle to mount and to add to this I’ve seen a number of these signs where the smaller route plate has been knocked off. Surely having everything on the one panel would avoid these problems. And why where two different methods used on the same stretch of road (N18)?

murphaph · 18-02-2006 01:12AM

Our signs manual would rarely call for a map type sign unless at a particularly complex junction. Of course you'll usually just find a crappy finger post at such junctions. I'm gonna draw a clear diagram of what should be erected at Clonsilla and send it to the council. They do listen they just don't seem to know what to do. The poor fellows who go out to erect signage probably have no training and are just doing things as they've always done.

That stack sign in Donegal isn't too bad compared to 90%+ of the signage down here MT-I'd be well pleased if we got to a stage where such signage was commonplace and then work on getting map signs!

MT, are you near the border at all?

I've heard that northerners ar as bad as us for ignoring route numbers, isn't the M1 still called the 'motorway' and the M2 the 'new motorway' (despite both being built over 30 years ago!)?

murphaph · 18-02-2006 11:12AM

Check out Rennicks extensive site. These goons have the monopoly on road signs in Ireland and even their own site pictures have glaring breaches of the TSM. The M11 gantry, being the worst offender! Amazingly however these people make signs for the UK too, so are familiar with doing it properly! The damn factory is just 5 mins from me here. I'd like to go up there and crack some skulls together.

It's a good site however, you can see the spec sheets for anti-rotation clips. On the new Ongar Distributor scheme near my house, there is a speed limit sign which has been rotated numerous times since it went up just a few weeks ago. They have now installed those anti rotation clips on it but the other 40 odd signs on the scheme are not mounted with anti-rotation brackets-just how long do they think it'll be before kids figure that out?!

Bloody contractors.

Victor · 18-02-2006 01:25PM

Remind me which one of you works for a signage company?

murphaph · 18-02-2006 01:36PM

I wish I did, I might be able to influence things then! Rennicks are the only signmaker's signs I have ever seen in the Republic. They should know that the big M11 gantry sign on their homepage is totally at odds with the TSM, with a ridiculous amount of duplicate text that only confuses the driver. They have a design house within their company so surely they should be famliar with the TSM and when a local authority orders a sign that contravenes the regs, Rennicks should be able to flag this to that authority. I imagine they just want the money and know that if/when a comprehensive signage review takes place, they will get to replace the shoddy signs and make more money on the same job. Obviously the buck stops with the local authorities and not a private company but it would be nice if that company who make all the signs i the state would flag poor designs.

MT · 18-02-2006 06:55PM

MT, are you near the border at all?

I've heard that northerners ar as bad as us for ignoring route numbers, isn't the M1 still called the 'motorway' and the M2 the 'new motorway' (despite both being built over 30 years ago!)?

Yeah, I’ve moved back to my routes in culchiedom from Belfast. I’m now in the sticks – Fermanagh to be precise. This is what got me interested in signage in NI and the Republic: the shear contrast between the two. On one side of the border you’ve got UK signage, which for primary and secondary routes is probably some of the best in the world. But cross the border and you’ve got, er… finger posts. And I think my current location also disproves the notion that rural hicks can’t figure out basic signage – the culchies here in Fermanagh have managed to put up and maintain excellent signage but drive into Cavan and it’s another story completely. Having said that Donegal is better than average by the Republic’s standards but still some way behind here.

It’s just the contrast that really amazes me, you go from excellent to appalling within the space of a few miles.

I've heard that northerners ar as bad as us for ignoring route numbers, isn't the M1 still called the 'motorway' and the M2 the 'new motorway' (despite both being built over 30 years ago!)?

Oh yeah, that’s certainly true. I think it stems from the chaotic numbering system in use up here and NI’s small size and isolation. As the numbering seems illogical people simply ignore it preferring the traditional ‘Dublin road’ and so on. On top of this NI is cut off from the rest of the UK while at the same time not being connected to the numbering network of the rest of Ireland. So people here have probably got used to giving directions in very parochial terms as locals don’t need the numbers while those from further away (Britain/Republic) come from fairly different systems so it was likely assumed they wouldn’t understand anyway.

MT · 18-02-2006 07:31PM

Ah Rennicks, partners in crime when it comes to misleading signage. They seem to have a good grasp of the materials needed to produce good sign faces but their design team ain’t sh!t hot to say the least.

I think this page sums up the problem, someone’s thoughtfully using a computer program to design a sign that needlessly uses two plates where one would be much more practical. And these pictures are supposed to be promotional?!

Hmm, I wonder are those non-slip brackets as good as the ones with indentations? And, given their production of signs both in the UK and Ireland, have they figured out that the plates in use in the Republic are clearly less robust and not as durable as those used up here?

I see on that site that Rennicks did the signage for the South Eastern section on the M50. I’d keep that quiet if I were them. Then there’s the Mountcharles N56 bypass. At the start of this they placed advance warning signage at a junction, I think one of the signs for Mountcharles fell off and some of the lettering peeled off the other. So as far as motorists are concerned it could be anywhere. The LA doesn’t seem too interested either.:rolleyes:

Pic: Another gem from Rennicks! It seems they’re actually proud of this finger but strangely they didn’t advertise any fingerposts on their site (probably don’t want to scare customers in the UK). Oh, and 13,000km is about the distance Rennicks should be kept from the design of any future signage projects! :mad:

MT · 18-02-2006 07:43PM

I wish I did, I might be able to influence things then!

Much better to be a regulator. You could spend your entire time driving round the country saying 'No, take that down', 'No, that won't do', 'No, remove it', 'No, try again', 'No, no, no, that's terrible'...

icdg · 18-02-2006 08:32PM

MT wrote:

When it comes to route confirmation signs there’s a strange inconsistency down there with some signs consisting of one plate – as in the UK – while others have the route number on a separate plate attached above. The latter seems like more hassle to mount and to add to this I’ve seen a number of these signs where the smaller route plate has been knocked off. Surely having everything on the one panel would avoid these problems. And why where two different methods used on the same stretch of road (N18)?

The rule seems to be that if there's a single destination it gets a one-plate, any more and the route no is separate. I've seen one-plate route confirmation signs (with just one destination) as far away as Portlaoise on the M7 - a sign that could just as easily have signed Newbridge, Naas, or Monestervin as major destinations.

And why oh why are there only a handful of route confirmation signs in the entire of Dublin, including practically none on the M50 (supposedly a national primary route). After J13 northbound there's one, but all it says is, er, "M50 Northbound". Useful.

On the N4, the first route confirmation sign outbound after Hueston is after the M50, then the next is Leixlip. Inbound the last route confirmation sign is Leixlip (there was until recently one at Parkgate Street, 1970s-style, still baring the "N4" route number but having been long bypassed).

MT · 18-02-2006 11:37PM

The rule seems to be that if there's a single destination it gets a one-plate, any more and the route no is separate.

But I’ve seen a single destination/route confirmation sign on the N15 for Sligo that had a separate plate for the route number. Not long after that when I passed it again the N15 plate had been knocked off. Here is another one on the M1.

I can understand the logic of a separate plate when there are multiple distances – they may not all be on that road. However, the use of brackets around destinations or additional bracketed route numbers solves this problem. They could also just have a line separating the route number from the rest of the sign face and this too would do away with the impractical added plate.

This one on the M7 makes a mockery of any logic there might have been. It has the separate plate at the top but with a bracketed M9 in it despite the fact that destinations on the M9 are in brackets further down the sign?!

These signs are yet another example of the lack of consistency that’s often found on signage in the Republic. Why not go for the most durable approach of putting everything on the one plate?

And why oh why are there only a handful of route confirmation signs in the entire of Dublin, …

I think this is the case right across the Republic where there is a lack of both advance and confirmation signage in general. Again it comes from the practice followed down there until fairly recently of attempting to sign everything at junctions on a finger post. Of course this resulted in a baffling myriad of destinations, route numbers, distances, attractions, etc. The new approach of using three steps (advance, junction and confirmation) as in the UK hasn’t fully been grasped yet by many local authorities it would seem.

MT · 19-02-2006 12:39AM

I’ve just been flicking through that Sabre site and found a link to this major sign supplier in Wolverhampton – Morelock Signs Ltd. If you click on the design tab you’ll be taken to a page where they state: ‘…the design team will check over any drawings you may supply to confirm that that they comply with DfT (Department for Transport) regulations.’

So if they can do this why can’t Rennicks do likewise with the Department of Environment regulations? There’s even a full link to the DfT(UK) signage section on the Morelock site.

Was that thread started by you, Murphaph?

I also see on that thread Rennicks have mucked up the 20 speed limits in a contract in Aberdeen, erecting signs that don’t comply with legal regulations. Inept or what?

Pic: Warning! Rennicks signage conference ahead.

Pic: A Rennicks' delegation deep in discussion.

Pic: Rennicks' Technical Committee discuss new sign support technology. ‘Jayz lads, would we get one of them there plate things on this?’

Pic: Back in Dublin at the Rennicks HQ to write up the report.
‘Gerry, what’s that?’
‘They say it’s a computer…’

icdg · 19-02-2006 02:51PM

MT wrote:

This one on the M7 makes a mockery of any logic there might have been. It has the separate plate at the top but with a bracketed M9 in it despite the fact that destinations on the M9 are in brackets further down the sign?!

Those signs follow no consistancy! Between junctions 7 and 9 southbound on the M7, every time M7 appears it is followed by (M9) in brackets. Even on the "Motorway Regulations Apply" signs at J7!. (In fact at J8, the "Motorway Regulations Apply" sign is, continental-style, simply the motorway symbol - the only place in Ireland where I think this is done - with the "M7 (M9)" a seperate plate a while down. Northbound everything is simply M7.

The only thing I think they are trying to indicate is that the M7 and M9 motorways are multiplexing on this section. But its not done anywhere else...

murphaph · 19-02-2006 03:05PM

From reading the declaration of roads act I don't believe roads multiplex anywhere in Ireland. Certainly in the city centre, O'Connell Street is the N1 but the N2, N3 etc all start at junctions furrther noth in the city centre, none of which overlap.

Victor · 19-02-2006 03:29PM

Collapseable posts. The posts are designed to collapse if struck by a vehicle, hopefully minimising damage.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=150&pos=0

MT · 19-02-2006 09:18PM

Collapseable posts. The posts are designed to collapse if struck by a vehicle, hopefully minimising damage.

Yeah, those collapsible posts are a good idea. They’d also solve the problem of sign rotation once and for all as they don’t have a round surface. But again there seems to be a lot of inconsistency. I’ve only seen those posts used in occasional instances, such as in that pic, and on a number of those speeding kills signs. Are these trials for a future plan to install collapsible posts right across the network or just another whimsical detour on the part of some contractor?

The use of stripes on posts is another approach that's just as hit and miss, as these pics demonstrate:
stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes, stripes, no stripes... What unearth is the policy – stripes or no stripes?

The ‘modern’ plastic cap type stripes don’t fit around the sharp bends in modern posts, as this peculiar colour selection demonstrates.

Then there seems to be the mistaken use of the wrong colours for the sign displayed. Why has yellow and black been used for this yield? And how are you supposed to read that St Mullans finger when it’s mounted right behind the other sign?

I’m also convinced that the use of plastic stripes provides less grip for sign brackets.

However, it appears that stripes are so wonderful they can also be used to remedy bodge jobs. Clearly no one will notice the utter mess this local authority have made of what should be a simple plate swap. I see something that looks suspiciously like baler twine has been used to secure the new 40 limit. Cowboy builders couldn’t do worse – but then, the stripes make it all better! :rolleyes:

I think that even if installed comprehensively striped posts would still have many draw backs but when the policy is followed as inconsistently as these pictures show then it should be ditched altogether. After all, I don’t think signage in the UK has suffered from the phasing out of zebra stripes decades ago.

MT · 19-02-2006 10:06PM

More cluttered finger posts in the midst of this tourist's pics:

Link

Snickers Man · 20-02-2006 04:35PM

I just want to say this is a brilliant ****ing thread.

Irish people can't give directions. I think it is so ingrained now that it is genetic.

the old joke is that an Irishman starts directions with "If I were you, I wouldn't start from here"

We don't say that in as many words, but we do the same thing in a slightly different manner.

Ask an Irish person for directions and the first thing they will ask you is 'Where do you know that is near where you're trying to go?"

Do you know the Square?
Do you know Blanchardstown Shopping Centre?
Do you know O'Neils pub?

Why?

Because the task of directing anyone to somewhere a little distant is just too damned hard given our total lack of signposts or the confusing, illegible or just plain stupid signposts we have. (Conduire a droite indeed!)

My pet nomination for the most stupid signpost is the one for the Helix Theatre from the dual carriageway beside it. If you are approaching from town, the signpost is on the far side of the dual carriageway almost completely out of sight for anybody approaching in a car.

Stupid.

murphaph · 20-02-2006 05:53PM

If you could get a picof that sign Snickers Man it'd be appreciated.

I today wrote to FCC roads dept (I have been emailing them repeatedly over the past few weeks). I mailed them because of the rubbish attempt to fix the so-salled direction signage at Clonsilla Station.

This rime I provided them with detailed drawings of what should be present by way of directional and waning signage at this complex and potentially very dangerous junction.

Please find attached the pics I sent them.

MT · 20-02-2006 08:53PM

Great presentation, Murphaph. Do you work in sign design by chance?

This is the sort of thing everyone should do when they find fault with something an LA has botched. A diagram speaks a thousand words and all that. If you could come up with standard ‘proposal sheets’ containing a box for an aerial diagram and boxes for signage (advanced, junction and confirmation) then anyone here could print them off and inform the local powers that be how confusing road layouts should be properly signed.

Just on your proposed signage I’m thinking that up here the Roads Service would now put in a mini-roundabout if they were going to tackle an intersection like that. They seem to act as traffic calming devices making cars slow down and easing the lives of nearby pedestrians.

At the junction

If I were you I’d ditch the pointing along Clonsilla flag at the top of the picture. Traffic already on the R121 should know from having seen the advance signage that they’re already on the road to Clonsilla. I think the Republic needs to get away from using at junction signage as a sort of route reminder – it would teach people to pay more attention to advance signage.

I think I’d put the Ongar flag in the top right in the place of that top left Clonsilla flag. This would make it more visible to the traffic that needs to see it – cars heading in the Clonsilla direction on the R121.

The Ongar flag at the bottom seems fine but I’d stack the Lucan sign above it with a vertical arrow, as in this layout. Again, this is because I don’t believe a sort of route reminder flag should be provided for R121 traffic that’s already seen the advance signage. So, the only drivers in need of this Lucan sign are those actually changing road. Those coming from the right have been catered for with a Lucan flag so that just leaves drivers coming from the road at the top. The straight on arrow would simply inform them that all they need do is continue straight over the junction.

I should reiterate, I don’t think the authorities down there should provide flags at junctions for traffic that doesn't have to change from one road to another.

Advance

For a complex and irregularly shaped junction like this map type signage would really come into its own. But I agree with your previous point that LAs in the Republic should aim to get stack advance signage right for now.

For Clonsilla bound traffic on the R121 I’d go for a diagonal arrow pointing top right as this gives a fairer representation of the junction – a bit like the R263 Killybegs plate on this sign. It should also be within TSM guidelines without going fully diagrammatic. Maybe a diagonal top left arrow for the R121 Lucan bound traffic? Then another diagonal arrow, again pointing top left, for Clonsilla bound drivers joining the R121 from the road to the right.

Warning

Looks good from here. But again if map advance signage was used the railway crossing could be signed much more clearly on the direction signs. The other advantage of map signs, as that pic shows, is that you can show major and minor roads with thick and thin arrows negating the need for the any warning signs in this instance at all. This would cut down on clutter and compensate for the extra cost of larger diagrammatic direction signs.

Interestingly, some authorities have made a stab at diagrammatic signage on stacks as in this pic. Some Australian states have tried this too. However, these look a bit cramped to be clearly decipherable and you also don’t get the benefit of placing warning signs, etc. on them as you do with the larger UK version.

Route confirmation?

What about two of these on the R121 – one on each side for traffic having passed through the junction on the priority route.

Don’t take these comments as a negative swipe at what you’ve produced, it’s just my tuppenceworth that’s all.

Poor Road Signage Pictures

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