Poor Road Signage Pictures

MT

mackerski wrote:

Wales is actually worse at bilingual signs than we are. They have no typographical distinction between the languages, which makes for clutter since the reader has no clues to enable him to focus on his preferred language. ...

Hmm, I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, tbh. While the two fonts on Irish signs are distinguishable they in themselves are more difficult to read. Upper case and italics being less comprehensible than lower case: hence why most countries use non-italic lower case.

The best option, to get distinction and readibility, may be the Scottish option of both Gaelic and English in lower case but in different colours.

Or keep both languages in lower case but prioritise the one predominantly spoken in that area by giving it a larger font size, pic

I’d forgotten how good a source that website is for this sort of thing.

mackerski

Colouring doesn't really help here IMHO: green on white has awful contrast, and the idea doesn't scale well to different background colours. I'd favour normal colour, mixed case for English, keep italics for Irish. _Or_ perhaps go monolingual for all names - afford us English speakers the same status as the Gaeltacht dwellers. Every place name could reflect what the residents actually call it. I wonder will it ever catch on...

Dermot

MT

You could go for the idea you have but make the mixed(substitute for where I've used lower previously) case English names a larger font to get the size differential the upper case currently gives you.

_Or_ perhaps go monolingual for all names - afford us English speakers the same status as the Gaeltacht dwellers. ...

Aaaaagh, but dare I say it that would make your signs very like a certain benighted place to the North where some politicos might tell you that English signage is another oppressive reminder of the sectarian statelet!! :eek:

*Runs for cover*

Victor

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054884683

:v:

Victor

Some I found myself:

Ha'penny Bridge, Dublin

Foxrock Church, Dublin (note angle of recline)

MT

Have been ill for a few days so i've only got around to taking a brief look over the signs manual you sent me, Murphaph. And I have to say it really is very detailed. The bits I looked at seem to cover extensively and in detail how to display proper signage. It even covers things such as the need for regular inspection and cleaning. Amazing. And I say that because the evidence on the ground points to a clear chasm between whats written on paper and how it's done in reality.

Some examples - the manual clearly states that chevron signs should not be used to indicate the end of a hard shoulder. But how many times have I seen this? Too many.

Signs should be displayed at the top of their posts. But I've seen countless new signs mounted with a bit of post still exposed above.

The manual states that when a direction sign indicates adequately the layout of a junction ahead there's no need for something like a T diamond. But again, puting up needless signs causing excessive clutter seems commonplace.

Which brings me to another area which may be in the manual but I haven't seen it yet. Why can't operatives take down the older signs they've just replaced? What's the point of having two sets of signs: one old, one new? You see this all over Donegal.

But back to the manual again why is it issued by the Dept of Environment and not Transport?

MT

Since my camera’s been nicked and I don’t live in the Republic anyway, I’ve done a bit of a search for an example of bad signage on google. I got this holiday shot from a Kerry Gaeltacht I think. Anyway, it does the job.

So what’s wrong here? Just about everything it seems.

Stop sign> Hard to see being so low down. At that height and being so close to the roadside it’s much more at risk of being knocked around to face the wrong way.

Finger posts> Shouldn’t be any. All signage should be of the plate form with at least two posts for direction signs to stop rotation. The two white directional signs on the newer looking post are in the same plane. The manual gives specific instructions not to do this due to reduced visibility. The other white finger is hardly in a clear location sitting beneath a canopy of what should be less important tourist signs on a post that isn’t even straight. What’s more it appears to be obscured from the view of motorists on the road in the background by a clump of hedge.

Tourist signs> Are there any regulations covering the number of these that can seemingly be tacked onto posts at a junction. Too many and the result, as seen here, is that they begin to detract from the more important directional and regulatory signage at a junction. Few if any here seem to be of a consistent design or have the same font/case of lettering. This inconsistency makes each individual sing less comprehensible at a glance. I wonder how long that ‘sale’ poster has been stuck on one?

Stack sign> This can only be a pedestrian sign as its font is much too small to read at a distance. But if so is it best placed here where any readers will serve as a background distraction for drivers trying to decipher the signage info. Couldn’t it have been placed somewhere else? And even on this note it hasn’t been done right as it’s nowhere near the top of its posts.

Over all appearance> cluttered, chaotic and in no way easy to follow and that’s while the signs remain pointing in the correct direction!! Oh, and it’s funny that directional signage is solely in Gaelic for the purists but for the tourist things are bilingual. Would it be cynical to say that the destination signs aren’t advertising for lucre?

MT

Dear me, what can you say about this lot other than Clare mustn’t only have a problem with one off houses!

How on earth is the average motorist meant to take in that amount of info. without causing an accident. Is there simply no control on the number of tourist signs that can be stuck up? Will this number continue to grow until a solid hedge of brown faced aluminium has been created? Not only is all of this confusing and incomprehensible – try to pick out the important signage at a glance – but it’s so unsightly. So much for tourism. :rolleyes:

murphaph

Hi MT,
Some craccking pics there, a real rogues gallery. The TSM was published by the DoE because at the time the DoT did not exist! It's only very recently that Transport has been it's own brief at cabinet!

The manual is basically a copy of the Guildford Rules and if it were applied religioulsy we would have signage just as good as the UK. I thank God the manual actually exists and we can point out the mistakes and not in a "we should do it like the UK" way but in a "that doesn't conform to our own rule book" way which is hopefully more likely to achieve results.

I take heart from the latest overhead gantries erected with the opening of the Drinan Interchange on the M1 just before the airport junction heading northbound. They are proper lane drop style gantries as you find in Belfast and on the M50 Northern Cross Route in Dublin (though it contains a small error, one I have also seen in the UK however!).

MT

I take heart from the latest overhead gantries erected with the opening of the Drinan Interchange on the M1 just before the airport junction heading northbound.

It might be an idea to put up some pics of these. This thread may be more effective if examples of best practice (when they get it right!) are also acknowledged.

murphaph

Yeah I'm gonna try to get some snaps but it'll be hard to do so legally and safely from my motorbike!

Victor

MT wrote:

Does anyone have any links to diagrams of the signage for the proposed motorway service areas?

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They only just warmed to the idea of having them, I don't think they have thought it out completely. http://www.nra.ie/News/NewsAnnouncements/htmltext,2059,en.html

Actually is there a service area associated with the Drinan interchange?

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Actually is there a service area associated with the Drinan interchange?

If by service area, you mean apartments, then yes.

MT

Another example off the web, again from Clare.

Problems:

Difficult to know where to begin. The main directional signage (for N67) could surely have been attached directly to the stone wall as the manual stipulates. But even as it is it hasn’t been mounted at the top of its posts and juts up over the top of the walled background.

This new primary signage should have been place directly opposite the left lane of the road the photo’s been taken from. It doesn’t need to be opposite the entire road.

I'm not sure of the separate flags for lesser destinations. Or if these are off the N67 then couldn't they be signed on the same flag but with their route (RXXX) in brackets/a patch?

The Hyland’s Hotel and the B&B signs in the immediate background distract drivers from the most important directional signs at this junction.

Once again there are far to many advertisement and randomly placed tourist signs that through their cluttered presence serve as an unsightly distraction. Why are some of the tourist signs blue or are these information signs? All of the tourist signs appear to have an inconsistent layout with different fonts/font sizes and so are hard to follow.

Why has a second, older set of primary route signage been left mounted in finger post form? I can’t make it out at this distance but is this simply a duplicate of the newer green signage which has never been taken down? And if it isn’t surely it should have been reproduced and placed together with the other primary signs so as to keep all directional signage together in the drivers line of sight.

The white finger post pointing left should have been reproduced in plate form and attached to the updated signage.

Has the other white finger post pointing down this road been updated in plate form on two posts both sides of this entrance as the manual dictates? Can’t see as it’s out of shot.

There are three posts in shot with nothing on them, they should be taken down.

Finally, one of the B&B signs stuck up separately is in green and so mustn’t conform to regulations.

Over all this is another cluttered and confusing mess.

MT

Another signage offering via Google. Don't even ask me what websites these pics are connected to, I'm simply doing random searches.:o

Anywho, this selection of fingerposts would have been much more easily and durably displayed had a simple plate containing this info. been attached directly to the facing wall.

This method is always used up here whenever a nearby surface is available. It reduces clutter and cuts down on costs. It's a more visually appealing way of doing things and leaves fewer bits to be knocked or vandalised.

Again I’ll have to check the manual for the procedure concerning the lesser destinations of Johnstown and Abbeyleix. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it done this way in the UK.

Although these signs from the UK are incorrect they at least give an example of mounting signs on nearby surfaces (the railing).

Slippin Jimmy

My theory on this one is that you know the way they have the small speed signs? They only have them like this because the smaller they are, the less people will see them and the more people will be caught for speeding. Plus it costs less money to make them. It is only a money making scam.

MT

My theory on this one is that you know the way they have the small speed signs?

Yeah, but those are just repeaters to remind you of the speed limit you're in. It's not a scam and is common practice all over the UK as well. The larger speed limits are still there at the beginning of each new speed zone but there are now repeaters within the area to keep you reminded.

One thing, however, the south could do with is a few of the UK's largest size speed limit signs where primary routes come into a town or roundabout, etc.

murphaph

DonnybrookGhost wrote:

My theory on this one is that you know the way they have the small speed signs? They only have them like this because the smaller they are, the less people will see them and the more people will be caught for speeding. Plus it costs less money to make them. It is only a money making scam.

Repeater speed limit signs aren't a scam. They are supposed to be installed on stretches of road to repeat a previously posted (on full size plate) limit, in cases where it is thought prdent to do so, but without the undue size and clutter of a full size plate.

MT, Clare seems to be winning this very straw poll on sh!tty signage. ALL those private B&B signs should be removed and only authorised tourist signage should be installed. I'm sick of rubbish signs belonging to private businesses all over the damn place, they're so unsightly as well as being total information overload to the poor driver. The NRA should really be on top of this if the local county councils can't manage it on the national routes.

The method of having two direction panels on the same plate is allowed in the book and in my view can be quite a useful tool to differentiate the major destination and the next town along the route.

MT

Is this the Republic’s first motorway related fingerpost? I suppose you have to move with the times. I mean, really, surely this type of signage should be in the process of being phased out, not seemingly on the increase. One set of brackets and a round post is just asking to be twisted.

More specifically in this case someone seems to have stuck up (another reason to ban fingerposts is that they’re much easier for amateurs to mock up) a sign in the same plain as the town centre sign. This is clearly in violation of the manual. Then possibly the most important sign, the one for the M7, is not only at the very bottom but is also partly obscured by the central fire station finger. Indeed I’d guess that the fire sign is older and it was actually the fairly crucial motorway sign that was squeezed in behind it, almost as an after thought.

Couldn’t more of this info have been combined onto fewer flags? Why couldn’t the M7 info. have been patched onto the Kildare (R445) sign in a similar fashion to the UK sign shown in my previous post?

To cut down on clutter the fire station signs could have been mounted on the main post and the superfluous support removed.

It all looks very poorly thought out.

The method of having two direction panels on the same plate is allowed in the book and in my view can be quite a useful tool to differentiate the major destination and the next town along the route.

It’s just that without any route numbers on the second set of flags it can be a bit misleading. Are the destination on this particular road or are they on a separate road which this one takes you to. It also seems to negate the point of brackets and patching. The sign in the example above looks a bit ridiculous for this very reason. Kildare is signed top even though its not even on this road (hence brackets) and yet the destinations beneath seemingly are but they are given separate signs?!

MT

ALL those private B&B signs should be removed and only authorised tourist signage should be installed. I'm sick of rubbish signs belonging to private businesses all over the damn place, they're so unsightly as well as being total information overload to the poor driver.

Yeah, I totally agree. Just look at how this excellent layout (where an authority has got it right) is slowly being taken over by private advertising. The ‘tourism’ fingers have just been bolted on willy-nilly on any available bit of exposed post.

Like ivy this spread of tourist fingers is so advanced here that it appears to have killed whatever signage had originally been displayed.;) No wait, I think I can just make out the real destination sign pointing away from the camera towards the forest. And is there any particular reason why German butchers get blue signs?

Multicoloured madness from Mayo here. At any more the 5mph the relevant signage for Johnson would be all but a blur amongst this mass of advertising. Are signposts supposed to give directions or serve as cheap billboards?

Even official tourist signs aren’t immune to private tourism barnacles. Of course this pic highlights why its important not to leave bare posts protruding from the tops of signs – they’ll get fingered!

This sign has sprouted even more advertising as the years have passed. Look at it now.

I think you’d have to careful to ensure you didn’t stand around too long in the same place down there or you could end up advertising a B&B. ‘Excuse me, sir. You’ve been standing there for a long while and I'm wondering if you'd mind me boltin' this sign to your forehead. No, no, there's nothing to worry about, sure they’ve only just opened down the round.’:)

murphaph

MT wrote:

Are the destination on this particular road or are they on a separate road which this one takes you to. It also seems to negate the point of brackets and patching.

This is one area where UK regs were change and ours weren't. The UK phased out bracketed destination names, retaining bracketed route numbers. Under our rules, if the destinations in the lower panels were not on the N road indicated above, they should be in brackets with a bracketed route number if applicable. Many in the UK believe it was a bad idea to phase out bracketed destinations as it is instantly clear to the passing driver that the destination is not on the road the sign is on and works even if the destinaions are not reachable by classified road.

MT wrote:

The sign in the example above looks a bit ridiculous for this very reason. Kildare is signed top even though its not even on this road (hence brackets) and yet the destinations beneath seemingly are but they are given separate signs?!

I'm pretty sure that signpost is on the Newbridge relief road near Newbridge Cutlery (my mam's from Newbridge, I don't know every road sign intimately ). The R445 is the reclassified N7 following the M7's construction around Newbridge. The R445 (old N7) is Newbridge main street, which this relief road that the signpost is on, roughly parallels. The Town Centre is not on the actual road the sign is on and requires a right hand turn onto cutlery lane. The Curragh should really have R445 in brackets too as you have to use it to get there, so that sign is in error like many! The M7 sign was indeed tagged on when Newbridge was bypassed.

MT

This signpost* from Kerry should surely be in the Guinness book or records or something!!!

*would the term advertising post be more applicable here?

Under our rules, if the destinations in the lower panels were not on the N road indicated above, they should be in brackets with a bracketed route number if applicable.

But then how come you've signs like this? Galway isn’t on the M4 but it’s not shown in brackets, only the route to it (the N6) is. Here too, Greenore isn’t on the R173 but isn’t shown in brackets, only the route to it, the R175.

murphaph

MT wrote:

But then how come you've signs like this? Galway isn’t on the M4 but it’s not shown in brackets, only the route to it (the N6) is. Here too, Greenore isn’t on the R173 but isn’t shown in brackets, only the route to it, the R175.

Sorry, I didn't write that very clearly. When I wrote;

Under our rules, if the destinations in the lower panels were not on the N road indicated above, they should be in brackets with a bracketed route number if applicable.

I should have written;
Under our rules, if the destinations in the lower panels were not on the N road indicated above, they should be in brackets or with a bracketed route number if applicable.

That way when destinations not on the route you're on are posted with destination only, ie without a route number, they should be in brackets. I think it's one ofthe more sensible aspects to our signage, and there are few enough!

MT

That way when destinations not on the route you're on are posted with destination only, ie without a route number, they should be in brackets. I think it's one ofthe more sensible aspects to our signage, and there are few enough!

Ah right, gotcha. Do you know why the UK discontinued this policy?


Here's another gem, this time from Castletownbere, I think. Where they going for some sort of tall signpost record here? I don't know where you'd begin to critique this. I think it would be just best to level it and start from fresh... without the fingerposts!!

By the way, does no one down there find it slightly unnerving that tourist websites use these images to market Ireland. It's as if they're saying 'come and stay in a place where the people are so charmingly daft they can't even put up signposts properly.' Just look at how annoyed the English get when Americans say the place is quaint but you're going further by selling Ireland as quaint and daft!

It's as self-stereotyping as tourists being shown around paramilitary murals in Belfast. 'Look how savage and bloodthirsty we are. Now, hand over your bags.'

murphaph

MT wrote:

Ah right, gotcha. Do you know why the UK discontinued this policy?

I don't know and it was discussed on SABRE before and none of the gurus there quite knew why either, but most thought it was a bad idea.

MT wrote:

It's as self-stereotyping as tourists being shown around paramilitary murals in Belfast. 'Look how savage and bloodthirsty we are. Now, hand over your bags.'

Yeah it's bloody embarrassing to be honest. This sort of 'sure it'll do' b0ll0x really gets to me. We have a rule ook and a small minority seem to be able to follow it while most cannot. The tourist signage hijacking is almost too difficult to tackle. As far as I know, permanent advertisements require planning permission too!

MT

The tourist signage hijacking is almost too difficult to tackle. As far as I know, permanent advertisements require planning permission too!

The signs without permission could surely just be removed. As for that planning permission, just what's allowed? Up here I think you'd have difficulty getting more than one B&B sign up on you're road but down there I've come across upwards of five signs for the one house at successive junctions miles from their address. I mean could someone with a B&B in West Cork sign their house all the way from the exit from Cork Airport?!!

I think such advertising should be restricted to very minor junctions, and a cap on the total at that. An even more draconian approach might only allow such signage opposite their entrance. This might be fairer than turning some junction advertisements down simply because others got their first.

MT

After some more prying on the web I’ve come up with a good few more examples of crap signage.

Pic: Fingers used> difficult for drivers to transpose onto actual junction, liable to twisting. Signs in the same plane and behind a telegraph pole> visibility reduced from certain directions. Too much info. on one post> drivers can’t take it all in (why does the parking sign have to be bolted on here?). No route numbers. No chevrons> reduces signs visual impact.

Pic: It’s a miracle!:D However, these signs would be much more securely mounted by dispensing with the fingers and attaching a panel to the wall. Nearby structures should be made use of. No chevrons> visual impact reduced. How long before the tourist signs spread to both posts?

Pic: I like these historic signs, they have character – as tourist attractions not functional signage. The errors here include distances in miles. Signs in the same plane and the use of fingers leaves the directions difficult to follow and transpose onto the junction. This is all the more the case when minor junctions usually don’t have advance signage. Coming from NI I often find myself having to slow to a halt to interpret finger posts. Crowded font> difficult to read. No chevrons> visual impact reduced. To many directions signed on the one post> information overload.

Keep these quaint old signs but erect modern, functional signage nearby.

Pic: Leaning over> looks shabby. Fingers, signs in the same plane> see above. No chevrons> see above. Too many destinations and information signed from the one post. Two advertisement fingers have been bolted on adding to clutter and confusion. No particular order (say directions top, attractions beneath)> again more confusing. No route numbers. Is the distance in miles or has the k been scratched off? Furthermore, by allowing the use of fingers for tourism adverts you run the risk of more and more being bolted on as time goes by.

Pic: Two posts> two points of focus> difficult to follow. Too much info. and clutter in the one place. Old font> difficult to read at distance. Fingers> hard to transpose without adv. signage> twisting. Signs in same plane. Route numbers? Why hasn’t that wall been utilised to display modern flat plat signage?

Pic: This shot illustrates a recurring failure in the Republic to utilise nearby structures for mounting signs. Why place this sign directly behind a lamp post when mounting it on it would involve less work and wouldn’t leave the info. partially obscured?

Painting zebra stripes on modern signposts is a total waste of time. There are so many posts on streetscapes now that it will be impossible to maintain leaving a half-arsed appearance. In addition, if you start to display extra signs on previously painted post you’re only covering time and money spent on paint.

MT

Pic: Finger posts> inferior to modern plate signage due to twisting. No need for so many separate signs> combine more info and patch on the tourist attractions> cuts down on ‘moving’ fingers. Hence the need for plate signage. Shouldn’t the sign for the tourist office be in blue as its location is hardly an attraction? Cool GAA name – Longford Slashers.

Pic: Oh dear, this finger really looks like an after thought. Signage should always be on the roundabout exits, using proper plate signs with two posts to stop rotation. Sligo mustn’t be very important in this case. Where’s the obligatory blue circle?

Pic: These fingers are showing bad signs of wear. How much longer will they remain pointing in the correct direction? Surely plate/panel signage should be a must on national routes at the very least. Again, too many separate signs have been used. To the unfamiliar it would be difficult to deduce whether Mullingar’s on the N4 or not. Get that advertising down!

Pic: Yet more fingers. These look fairly new but where’s the chevrons for visual reinforcement?

Pic: Too many directions on the one post. The location on the island is very poor. Signs for the road crossing the picture should be on the far verge as is required procedure. This layouts would leave drivers having to crane their necks back after stopping to see which way to go. Other faults include a combination of miles and kilometres. No chevrons. Route numbers? Derreen Gardens should be signed in white on brown not an poorly contrasting pale green on white. Of course the fingers post style should be dispensed with.

Pic: Two points of focus> confusing. Fingers> many already twisted. Cluttered up with distracting advertising. Better pic

Pic: Another barrage of advertising on this post distracts from the important signage and even obscures completely other signs behind. In common with much southern signage the whole thing has a random and haphazard appearance. Couldn’t a single panel attached to the railing have conveyed all the relevant info here minus the tourism stuff?

Pic: Advertisements serve as a distraction. The rusty post presumably dates from earlier signage, why couldn’t it have been removed? When the effort had been made to put in proper panel signage could the same not have been done for the tourist attractions? The fingers bolted on like this look ad hoc and amateurish. Surely the mix of solely Gaelic and bilingual signs is hopelessly inconsistent. I hope that sheep isn’t a sign twisting vandal!

Pic: The problem with relying on cast iron signs is that they tend to snap off now and again. Again with this finger post all the usual problems apply. But most of all, short of pulling over and getting out to inspect the thing, it’s pretty useless as a direction indicator from your driver's seat.

Pic: According to this sign there are two Killarneys and two Tralees. Obviously this is a junction on a loop but some route numbers would be nice to reassure the driver that there two routes and not two sets of towns sharing the same names. All the usual faults exist. Fingers. Excessive info on one post. Is the distance to Cork in miles or kms? Few chevrons. Aaaah, for once the local supremos managed to combined two tourist attractions onto one sign. As a junction involving a national route I wonder had this collection any advance signage?

Pic: Another seemingly improvised advertising post serves as a distraction in the vicinity of directional signage.

Pic: Couldn’t all this info have been placed on the one non-finger post sign using patching. Why sign Enniskerry twice on the one post? Again I think this is another failing that can be attributed to fingers. It seems that they mostly come in only the one size and this encourages an excessive use of separate fingers and even duplication.

MT

Murphaph, do you know what is the correct name for modern panel-like signs? I've used terms like flat plate, panel etc. but is there a consistent and widely recognised description?

Victor

I've seen a couple of standard types?

Aluminium plate, probably 2mm

Aluminium plank, folded aluminium shape, I presume used in high wind locations

Edged aluminium, aluminium plate, with added-on edging, I think this is more common on triangular signs.

Cast iron, old style post-independence signs

murphaph

MT wrote:

Murphaph, do you know what is the correct name for modern panel-like signs? I've used terms like flat plate, panel etc. but is there a consistent and widely recognised description?

I call them plates because the term 'panel' is taken in the form of 'Legend panels' (the different colour panels with routes on a different class of road than the class the sign is on). A 'patch' is only the different colour route numbers stuck on signs.
Each class of sign is individually named, do we have 'map-type' (such as when approaching a roundabout or the fork you see approaching a m-way exit), stack signs (give advance warning of directions before a junction) and 'pointing-along' signs (the pointy ones with chevron on the end that approximate finger posts).

MT

Murphaph, is 'pointing-along' a recognised term?

Ok, more mad signs from the internet:

Pic: A finger post placed in the middle of a roundabout is virtually impossible to follow> signage should be on the exits. Was there any advance signage? The obligatory arrow signs should be updated to be consistent with their blue equivalents in use elsewhere.

Pic: It would make much more sense to ensure the brackets holding a sign were secured properly rather than fussing over zebra stripes. Functionality should always trump quaintness.

Pic: This sign appears fine but why waste time/money carefully painting on black and white strips. It’s only an extra burden to maintain and some of this paint work has peeled off already.

Pic: Could this sign not have been mounted on the gable of that grey house? This would have been cheaper and there’d have been no post left exposed for a B&B proprietor to bolt a finger to.

Pic: Couldn’t this panel have been mounted on the wall behind, saving on posts in the process. Indeed, provided there’s no other sign above, this heritage plaque hasn’t even been attached correctly at the top of its posts. Looks shoddy.

Pic: This is a tourist sign but will tourists know what it means? Surely Gaelic only signs should only be displayed in Gaeltachts? This looks like somewhere in Cork city.

Pic: When modern plate signs have been used why go back to fingers for the tourist signage. Again there’s too much info at this one point – does everything in the locality have to be signed from this spot? Not sure of the layout but the other plate sign looks obscured by this one. Another inconsistency is that Sligo and Lifford are signed together on the one flag but not Ardarra and Killybegs – yet they’re both on the same road?! As for signing toilets from a traffic intersection, that’s just pointless. The yield sign looks on the low side and so is liable to being knocked around by passing traffic.

Pic: Only in Ireland!:D

Pic: This is another reason not to have stripey posts – someone has even managed to get this wrong. Why go to the trouble of a separate post for the pedestrian sign when a plate ‘pointing-along’ version could have been mounted beneath the Cong sign? Because there’s gotta be a finger post somewhere! Finally, why the need for two signs telling you its Cong? If you want ornamental go for an interesting sign – the stone’s lack of contrast makes it hard to read.

Pic: Another finger post. Once again it results in signage that’s completely in the wrong place. Directions for the road crossing the picture should be on the far verge. Pulling up here the finger to the right would difficult to see. Also, what’s the sign doing over on the right, people drive on the left in Ireland. And the road markings, where are they?

Pic: If this picture’s for real then someone should be sacked. :mad:

Pic: Has this finger post ended up pointing into the ditch?

Pic: Again the signs for the main road should be on the far verge. The signs for the road without priority look to be too far from the main route making them difficult and dangerous to observe. All the usual problems with fingers here. The stad sign looks on the low side and could end up twisted. Oh, and typically the zebra stripes haven’t been maintained.

Pic: The colour coding indicates a national road but where’s the route number?

Pic: Almost right but where are the chevrons for visual reinforcement?

MT

Victor wrote:

Aluminium plate, probably 2mm

I think the standard is actually 3mm. But even if this is the case the particular aluminium alloy must be inadequate as many signs in the Republic appear to deteriorate much sooner and more markedly than those in the UK. Signs that appear to have suffered no more in the way of wear and tear than those in NI have often been left bent, crumpled and dog-eared. This weakness also shows through when the signs are mounted as many are bent/warped slightly by the pressure of the brackets holding them to their posts.

So clearly either a thinner aluminium plate or a less sturdy alloy is used for signs in the Republic.

murphaph

MT,
'Pointing along' is the terminology used in the TSM for well, pointy ended signs

As for all these private business ads hijacking the posts, it appears that without a permit from the local authority, it is an offence to put up any advertising sign on the public highway, regardless of the format of that sign.

ROADS ACT, 1993 SECTION 71 wrote:

71.—(1) ( a ) Any person who, without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority—

(i) erects, places or retains a sign on a public road, or

(ii) erects, places or retains on a public road any caravan, vehicle or other structure or thing (whether on wheels or not) used for the purposes of advertising, the sale of goods, the provision of services or other similar purpose,

shall be guilty of an offence.

How many of those ropey signs does anyone think has a permit? :rolleyes:

MT

As for all these private business ads hijacking the posts, it appears that without a permit from the local authority, it is an offence to put up any advertising sign on the public highway, regardless of the format of that sign.

There's obviously no enforcement. After all it wouldn't be hard to apprehend the culprits, they have left their names and adresses at the scene of the crime so to speak.

There are no trolls under this bridge just a monster of a finger post to greet motorists on the other side. From the number of fingers on this it would seem this 'feature' was brought to the long suffering Irish driver by just about half the B&Bs in Mayo.

It seems that there's simply a free for all when it comes to advertising clutter.

MT

More from the web:

Pic: Here’s that jumble shown in an earlier photo but from a different angle this time. How unearth do you pick out relevant info from your car window?

Pic: This is what happens to finger posts when kids swing on them.

Pic: Another dishevelled finger post and as usual it consists mostly of private advertising. This sign would also seem to make a mockery of the road layout. The priority road forms the bend and isn’t running across this picture yet whoever stuck this sign here seems to think the latter should be the case with traffic having to stop on the main road on a bend to enable them to read the sign as if they were pulling up at a junction. And what about traffic coming in the other direction, how do they read this sign. This picture highlights two huge failings of finger posts – they’re difficult to position for all traffic flows and in an attempt to make up for this they invariable contain too much info. This junction would really need two separate signs for each direction – a map sign being preferable as a bends involved.

Pic: Some posts end up striped, others don’t. It’s all so hit and miss.

Pic: Nice historic sign but how useful are miles when the Republic has now completed the conversion to kms?

Pic: Route numbers? Reinforcement chevrons?

Pic: Just a small complaint here. In NI the street lamp would probably have been made use of as one of the three posts to support this sign. Cuts costs and clutter. The same might go for the green sign further ahead.

Pic: When they had got the signage here right (minus chevrons) for the priority road why couldn’t a plate pointing-along sign have been used for the minor road? It’s yet another example of an authority getting it oh so nearly right, but not quite. Maybe that’s why they left the two older posts there – perfection’s dangerous you know. This British sign is closer to getting it right but could do with a second post for the upper plate.

Pic: A warning sign outside a pedestrian area – could it be mounted on two posts to stop rotation? Example

Pic: Chevron signs are for marking bends not pinch points or bridges. This can be very misleading at night when visibility's reduced and you assume there’s a bend. That warning symbol looks fairly ad hoc.

Pic: An entirely correct Gaeltacht tourist sign to finish off. Tourists might have difficulty mind.

murphaph

MT wrote:

There's obviously no enforcement. After all it wouldn't be hard to apprehend the culprits, they have left their names and adresses at the scene of the crime so to speak.

There are no trolls under this bridge just a monster of a finger post to greet motorists on the other side. From the number of fingers on this it would seem this 'feature' was brought to the long suffering Irish driver by just about half the B&Bs in Mayo.

It seems that there's simply a free for all when it comes to advertising clutter.

***NEWSFLASH***
My local council (FCC) have apparently removed a privately installed sign at a location I've pestered them about a few times. The "Roselawn Shopping Centre" sign in the sttached pic is no more, however, the council has installed a NEW galvanised pole just to the left of the rusty one in the pic. I'm dreading what they're going to put on it, let me guess........new fingerposts? :rolleyes:

corktina

is this a legal pedestrian crossing? the crossing is just a band of red tarmac and the sign is after it in any case....

MT

Excellent, Murphaph, it's a result nonetheless. One small step and all that... If you just had one person per town badgering the local authority over signposting there'd be a revolution in standards.

But that new post you mention is interesting as it seems likely that another finger post will be installed. This really would be unsatisfactory. Modern, functional traffic signage should have nothing to do with ridiculous finger posts. What's with the fetish down there for the things, after all there are virtual none used for direction signage in NI whatsoever. Why, if the Republic's sign manual has been virtually copied verbatim from the UK version, do they still insist on the use of this outdated and inferior method of displaying signs?

Fingerposts have got to go if the Republic is ever going to improve road signage substantially.

MT

corktina, the way in which pedestrian crossings are marked and signed down there is a bugbear of mine. The reason is that not only do the signs not match the marking (broken lines on sign, solid on street) which can be confusing enough but throw in traffic lights and you've got a baffling choice of three solid lines in front of you at a junction. If distracted it can be difficult to quickly figure out which one applies to you the motorist and which mark the crossing.

There's no such problem up here as pedestrian crossings are marked by metal studs ensuring they match the symbol on the sign and can't be confused with the white stop line at the lights. But even if authorities won't go to this expense/hassle down there why not at least paint broken lines for the crossing. This would clearly differentiate the crossing from the stop line.

As for that picture, could the LA not have got away with just the one post displaying a crossing sign on each side. They could have moved it to this side of the crossing to avoid the reduced visibility caused by that tree. The option of two posts is just needlessly cluttered.

corktina

MT wrote:

corktina, the way in which pedestrian crossings are marked and signed down there is a bugbear of mine. The reason is that not only do the signs not match the marking (broken lines on sign, solid on street) which can be confusing enough but throw in traffic lights and you've got a baffling choice of three solid lines in front of you at a junction. If distracted it can be difficult to quickly figure out which one applies to you the motorist and which mark the crossing.

There's no such problem up here as pedestrian crossings are marked by metal studs ensuring they match the symbol on the sign and can't be confused with the white stop line at the lights. But even if authorities won't go to this expense/hassle down there why not at least paint broken lines for the crossing. This would clearly differentiate the crossing from the stop line.

As for that picture, could the LA not have got away with just the one post displaying a crossing sign on each side. They could have moved it to this side of the crossing to avoid the reduced visibility caused by that tree. The option of two posts is just needlessly cluttered.

it isnt at a junction...it's half way down the main street, almost invisible and totally illegal imho......in short, a mess....

MT

Yeah, I've seen that type of feature in other southern towns. Is it illegal or are the rules governing crossings in the Republic different from those in the UK. I mean, are those things like zebra crossings? Must traffic stop if you step out onto one?

And if they are illegal and the authority couldn't budget for a proper crossing couldn't they just have put up a warning sign for to make drivers aware of pedestrians in the vicinity without the misleading/unlawful crossing?

murphaph

The crossing in the pic looks completely disastrous tbh. I'm all for making the streetscape more pedestrian friendly, but at least do it safely and give drivers notice before the bloody crossing, not after it!

corktina

i posted it because I keep failing to see the crossings (there are several of them around town ) and the pedestrians clearly think THEY have right of way.........

murphaph

MT wrote:

Excellent, Murphaph, it's a result nonetheless. One small step and all that... If you just had one person per town badgering the local authority over signposting there'd be a revolution in standards.

But that new post you mention is interesting as it seems likely that another finger post will be installed. This really would be unsatisfactory. Modern, functional traffic signage should have nothing to do with ridiculous finger posts. What's with the fetish down there for the things, after all there are virtual none used for direction signage in NI whatsoever. Why, if the Republic's sign manual has been virtually copied verbatim from the UK version, do they still insist on the use of this outdated and inferior method of displaying signs?

Fingerposts have got to go if the Republic is ever going to improve road signage substantially.

Arrrghhhh, they just switched the damn fingerpost panels onto the new pole! Jesus do they have any clue?
See pics for before and after. What a pointless exercise. They could have cut that new pole in two and installed proper signage that would actually stand the test of time like the plate sign already at the junction!

MT

Good grief, talk about a bodge job.

When they'd already erected a proper plate sign why unearth did they go back to fingers for the rest? This layout needlessly creates two points of focus and excessive clutter when all they needed do here was use two taller posts and mount all the signage in plate form on these. Indeed, they're obviously so dedicated to finger posts that they've left up the second superfluous Clonsilla sign. Here's an example of the exact same half-arsed approach. Despite erecting a new plate sign for the R581 and its destination they've failed to remove the original fingers. And given the popularity of finger posts, I wouldn't be surprised if they take down the plate versions when the duplications eventually noticed!

Now all that's needed is for a workman to appear with black and white paint to apply the good old zebra stripes.

Another flaw, according to the book, is that stop sign not being mounted at the top of its post.




This pic shows what also looks like a fairly new post demonstrating that fingers are still very much in vogue down there. Likewise, it too is a mess with the blue parking sign virtually on top of the one for the holy well. Then there’s the traditional advertising finger.:rolleyes:

But of course all of this is to be expected when the manual setting out signage guidelines still permits the use of finger posts. As long as this remains the case they will always be popular with local authorities as they require the least effort and thought to erect. You can just stick ‘em in anywhere and then twist the signs to a rough approximation of the road layout!

MT

Another failing of fingers is that they contravene the book’s guidelines on anti-rotation. Signs are supposed to be fitted with brackets that have indentations to provide grip yet these are absent on fingers. That’s probably why so many end up twisted. In this pic from another post the yield sign has the correct non-slip indented brackets but the fingers have no such extra grip.

MT

Pic: It can be done! These cyclists were probably as shocked as I am to see a tourist attraction signed without using a finger post. No wonder they stopped to take a picture.:D

Pic: Back to the usual standard here. But at least it has brown and white stripes so you get something colourful to look at while you're wondering whether the fingers are still pointing in the right direction.:rolleyes:

This post also appears to be capped in the 'modern' plastic stripes. However, the boffin that came up with this labour saving feature clearly didn't concern himself with sign rotation. Because if he had he'd have realised that these bands make it more likely. Their smooth surfaces provide finger brackets with even less grip and if they come loose it doesn't matter how tightly a sign's attached when it gets next gets knocked. Sheer genius!

MT

Pic: And another reason not to use stripes - they're kinda difficult to maintain once you've bolted on a load of signs. I wonder how tourists know that the numbers without km above are in miles? If you're not used to the 'system' it might not be instantly obvious.

murphaph

There is no real reason to sign Dublin or Blanchardstown at this location. The next town of significance along the R121 from this point is Clonsilla. This is considered sufficient signage under the rules and I agree-we need to get people to use route numbers like the british do. Half the people in Ireland don't even know the primary route numbers!

This is what the council should have done at this spot, together with adding a plate for Lucan bound traffic instead of that awful fingerpost.