Poor Road Signage Pictures

Victor

http://www.break.com/pictures/oct26gallerymain16.html

murphaph

Well I complained about the awful sign below to SDCC using their online complaints facility and I got a prompt email reply, firstly acknowledging the complaint, then another one the following day which said;

I refer to your recent query regarding the above. Your concerns in this regard will be examined and discussed at our next Traffic Correspondence Meeting on 15th November and I’ll revert to you as soon as possible regarding the outcome.

Deirdre x

Senior Staff Officer

So we shall wait with baited breath! At least they replied more than FCC seem to do.



And here's a screenshot of their complaint tool, the gas thing is that the online map clearly shows the R120 and R405, yet the sign (apart from being completely the wrong type for its location) does not!

jlang

Philip, that's the junction in Newcastle, right? I never noticed the missing road numbers before but I agree a complaint is appropriate. The location of the sign is all wrong. It's right on the junction with no advance sign at all and I'm sure many drivers miss the turn thinking it couldn't refer to the road opposite.

murphaph

Yes jlang, it's the junction of Main St and Peamount Rd and as you say, there's no advance signage in advance of the junction but they've used advanced signage in the junction! This I must admit, is the only example of this that I know SDCC to be guilty of (FCC however have done this all over) and so I picked it as a single example. I only complained about this one sign, just to see what happens. Ideally, they'd say "Oh yeah, how silly. Which trainee did that then?, ok, let's just move the signs back to be in advance of the junction, patch on the R120/R405 numbers where apprpriate, patch '(N4)' over 'N4' and then erect proper in junction flag type signs in the junction". Will that happen though? I woldn't be surprised if one of three things happen 1) nothing, 2) they just patch he route numbers onto the incorrect signfaces or 3) they buy all brand new signs which may or may not be the correct designs.

If I get a result then I'll highlight other cheaper fixes like route number patching to R roads like the completely unknown R835 which runs from Woodies down through Lucan and out to the Spa Hotel. You'd never know it existed on the ground. Also, the R121 is abysmally signed. There's no signage at it's start point on Lucan Main St at all IIRC.

murphaph

Well here's what SDCC came back with....

Philip

The advance directional signage will be moved subject to a suitable
location being identified - the replacement with "flag type" signs is
currently under review.

murphaph

More terrible signage related to the port tunnel project! A billion odd quid and they can't get it right!



So who can tell me what's wrong with that one, anyone class?

Chris_533976

Green background?? Should it be blue, or am I being stupid.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

Green background?? Should it be blue, or am I being stupid.

Well, that's not the answer murphaph's looking for, but it probably should, considering the M1/M50 roundabout is under motorway restrictions according to the 2006 Statutory Instrument; hence this road leading to the roundabout should also be under motorway restrictions (hence requiring blue signage).

mike65

Its fecking obscured by a bush!

Mike.

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

So who can tell me what's wrong with that one, anyone class?

Is the Port Tunnel the M50 too?

mike65

I don't see any junction ID. Where is it?

Mike.

jmkennedyie

Jeez. I was hoping the sign was intended for an unseen road on the other side of the barrier.

I've never seen the standards or rule book, but if this is the N something or other road coming from the Coast to that roundabout, then presumably green background is OK? Of course, bit of a bummer if you are not allowed on a motorway, all you can do is go around and come back

Some other random thoughts...

How about a road number (for the road on which the sign is placed)?
How about the road number for the road into Dublin (maybe that was not included on purpose...M1 -> M50 renaming and all that)?
A junction number?
The name of the city to which City Centre refers?

OK OK I admit I have not read this entire thread yet...stop laughing

murphaph

Navan Junction wrote:

Is the Port Tunnel the M50 too?

10 points to that man.

Now, there's more wrong than just that.....

*Mike you are technically correct of course, the sign is dreadfully obscured in its placement.

IMO, the green background is appopriate and as this road (the N32) terminates here it is not required to sign this road number, in fact it would be rather pointless. A junction number should not be signed either as we are not (practically) on a motorway at this point. "CITY" is also fine as a destination, much like "Town Centre" is allowed.

So, what else is badly wrong with this sign, given that it refers to motorways at all three exits....

Seth Brundle

murphaph wrote:

So, what else is badly wrong with this sign, given that it refers to motorways at all three exits....

bored here so guessing...
No "L" drivers, etc? (usually on another sign)
No advance warning that the tunnel isn't open to non-HGVs
No advance warning that the tunnel & M50 are tolled (do they need to do this?)
Is the tunnel height lettering too small?

murphaph

kbannon wrote:

bored here so guessing...

Sure why not!

kbannon wrote:

No "L" drivers, etc? (usually on another sign)

Exactly, already taken care of on the so called "No-" sign.

kbannon wrote:

No advance warning that the tunnel isn't open to non-HGVs

That's taken care of by a VMS

kbannon wrote:

No advance warning that the tunnel & M50 are tolled (do they need to do this?)

Taken care of on another sign

kbannon wrote:

Is the tunnel height lettering too small?

Not to my knowledge of the regs.

kbannon wrote:

Keep 'em coming folks, someone has to get it.

Chris_533976

No mention whatsoever of the stonking great toll the tourist in their hire car will have to pay when they're told to go this way to the port?

jmkennedyie

Well I've nothing to lose now :-)

"Motorway Ahead" notice?

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote:

No mention whatsoever of the stonking great toll the tourist in their hire car will have to pay when they're told to go this way to the port?

No but they have to head that way to get to the N1 to get to the port on surface streets anyway.

murphaph

jmkennedyie wrote:

Well I've nothing to lose now :-)

"Motorway Ahead" notice?

That's a separate sign which is present, but you are close.....

Alun

Well, considering that all the exits lead onto Motorways, should there be a sign indicating where 'non-Motorway' traffic should go? I assume that the only would be back the way you came, but still

murphaph

Alun wrote:

Well, considering that all the exits lead onto Motorways, should there be a sign indicating where 'non-Motorway' traffic should go? I assume that the only would be back the way you came, but still

Quite ridiculously this is not provided for in the rulebook, though it should be so someone can still guess this. Ok, a hint. How do we know the three exits off the roundabout ahead lead directly to a motorway?

mike65

There's a missing M?

Mike.

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

There's a missing M?

Mike.

Well we've already established that the first exit should be labelled 'M50' but aside from that, there's something missing from all three blue panels that let's you know you will be under MOTORWAY RESTRICTIONS if you take any of the exits. So what's missing?!

Alun

A little motorway symbol, white on blue background?

murphaph

Alun wrote:

A little motorway symbol, white on blue background?

Yesssss! The all important (and legally required) motorway symbol which implies that motorway regulations begin. A rather important sign given that prohibited traffic must be informed where the motorway begins!

The example from the rule book.....

mike65

Ah feck it thats what I meant (honest guv)

Gold star for Alun!

Mike.

Alun

mike65 wrote:

Gold star for Alun!

Thank you, thank you <takes bow>

jmkennedyie

mike65 wrote:

Gold star for Alun!
Mike.

Here Here

Danno

Along the N8 between Durrow and Abbeyleix there are two new signs up for traffic exiting minor roads. They have quite dark green background, black surrounds and white writing.
Anyone seen these? They look strange.

murphaph

Are they on the N8 on on the sideroad approaching the N8? Are they direction signs or hazard warning signs? (I presume direction). If they're direction signs, what destinations/symbols are on them?

mackerski

murphaph wrote:

Yesssss! The all important (and legally required) motorway symbol which implies that motorway regulations begin. A rather important sign given that prohibited traffic must be informed where the motorway begins!

I can't entirely agree with you here - at least, not if that sign is where I think it is. The roundabout depicted in the diagram is the one linking M50 to M1. As mentioned earlier, this is under motorway regs. The placement of this sign is (must) be on the spur from N32 to said roundabout. Since the roundabout is motorway, so is the spur, so you don't need chopsticks on the blue panels. You do, however, need to have an all-blue sign with no panels at all.

All this, of course, assuming that I've correctly called the sign position. If it's actually on the N32, then the problem is that it fails to depict the last non-motorway roundabout.

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

I can't entirely agree with you here - at least, not if that sign is where I think it is. The roundabout depicted in the diagram is the one linking M50 to M1. As mentioned earlier, this is under motorway regs. The placement of this sign is (must) be on the spur from N32 to said roundabout. Since the roundabout is motorway, so is the spur, so you don't need chopsticks on the blue panels. You do, however, need to have an all-blue sign with no panels at all.

All this, of course, assuming that I've correctly called the sign position. If it's actually on the N32, then the problem is that it fails to depict the last non-motorway roundabout.

The sign is on the N32 (the N32 chainage marker 0000 is beyond the sign, immediately east of the M1/M50 roundabout. Now, it's debatable whether or not that short bit of N32 is actually M32 but even if we accept it is then as you say the shole sign should be blue and the chopsticks could be omitted BUT you'd need chopsticks on this sign and as you can see, there's none. You'd also need a start or motorway regs sign here but again, nothing but the N32 RCS (which has since been knocked down by some dope). Given the ambiguity and the fact that the M50/M1 roundabout itself must be under motorway regs to make this short bit of N32 under motorway regs, I don't believe the "M32" exists anymore. The only socumentation which suggests the M50/M1 roundabout is under m-way regs is an SI which mentions TURNAPIN in caps (implying motorway) but this isn't explicit enough for me and I'm gonna try to find out from DCC what the actual status of this stretch is.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

The sign is on the N32 (the N32 chainage marker 0000 is beyond the sign, immediately east of the M1/M50 roundabout. Now, it's debatable whether or not that short bit of N32 is actually M32

Find the original motorway order for the Northern Cross Route.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Find the original motorway order for the Northern Cross Route.

I've emailed the NRA about this but I think a trip into the DCC library might be in order. You've done a good bit of map-digging lately Victor, any other places I might visit to get this information?

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I've emailed the NRA about this but I think a trip into the DCC library might be in order. You've done a good bit of map-digging lately Victor, any other places I might visit to get this information?

I can't see a commercially available map being the (perfect) answer to the query.

"Dublin Co. Council (Northern Cross Route) Motorway Scheme 1990" seems to be what you are looking for. Talk to Fingal co. co.

MDTyKe

I know that here (NI/UK) that if a sign is incorrect according to the legislative codes, ie: wrong color, when it comes to prosecution, the whole case can be invalidated because of it. Same goes with a speeding fine on a road that has an illegal sign.

That is unless bye-laws have been passed of course, but the signs need to be legally correct in order for these to be inforced. Is it the same in ROI?


Matt

JaysusMacfeck

Anyone know when they'll start phasing out the old Gaelic names from all road/street signs?

MDTyKe

When you say old Gaelic, are you referring to the normal gaelic you see now, ie: Ath Cliath etc? I hope they don't! Ireland still has Irish as it's official language, and as of this year, Irish has become the official EU language of Ireland on par with English (ie: it's now known as Ireland Eire, as opposed to Ireland). Chances are nil.


Matt

Victor

MDTyKe wrote:

I know that here (NI/UK) that if a sign is incorrect according to the legislative codes, ie: wrong color, when it comes to prosecution, the whole case can be invalidated because of it. Same goes with a speeding fine on a road that has an illegal sign. That is unless bye-laws have been passed of course, but the signs need to be legally correct in order for these to be inforced. Is it the same in ROI?

Bye-laws or primary legislation exists behind all speed limits. I imagine the only "excuse" is where a sign is missing (obscured is not enough) and you couldn't have been expected to know or if the wrong sign was used, but there is the fallback of careless/dangerous driving.

The vast majority of speed limit signs are new from January 2005. http://www.gometric.ie/

There are questions about the signs on the M8 which have a light grey background (I suspect "white" isn't defined in the regulations).

Wishbone Ash

What's the story with the signage on the Coolock Lane interchange with the M1. I'm referring to the one on the slip road from the M1 southbound and the one on Coolock Lane eastbound before entering the roundabout. There must have been a manufacturing fault with them as they are very off colour and have been like that for many years. I had presumed that they may be replaced when the DPT works were completed but nothing yet!

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Talk to Fingal co. co.

They are the worst LA in Dublin when it comes to this sort of thing IME. They seem totally disinterested, where at least Dublin City and South Dublin can admit something is wrong in the first place. Is the N32 not right between Fingal and the city though?

murphaph

Wishbone Ash wrote:

What's the story with the signage on the Coolock Lane interchange with the M1. I'm referring to the one on the slip road from the M1 southbound and the one on Coolock Lane eastbound before entering the roundabout. There must have been a manufacturing fault with them as they are very off colour and have been like that for many years. I had presumed that they may be replaced when the DPT works were completed but nothing yet!

They are originals from 1984, they were once white but yeah, they are now brown! They show the now rare un-italicised irish font that existed from the early 70's until the new rules were brought in. DCC did actually patch the s/b offslip with an R number-any authority in the UK would have replaced the entire sign given you can barely read it. I like it though, bit of history

Wishbone Ash

murphaph wrote:

Is the N32 not right between Fingal and the city though?

It's in Fingal. The border with the city is further south.

EDIT: On examination of the map, it extends further south on the M1 but with contours, it borders the N32.

murphaph

MDTyKe wrote:

...but the signs need to be legally correct in order for these to be inforced. Is it the same in ROI?

Depends on the offence of course but yes, the signage must be correct. For example, when you come off the M1 s/b at the M50 and head along the N32, you meet no "end of motorway regs" sign! Now, there are speed limit signs but a decent barrister would probably get you off a speeding charge if you were doing say 100km/h down the N32. The very first paragraph of the Traffic Signs Manual (ROI) clearly states that signs must be correct for proper law enforcement!

murphaph

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It's in Fingal. The border with the city is further south.

EDIT: On examination of the map, it extends further south on the M1 but with contours, it borders the N32.

Cheers WA, just to clarify, the short bit of N32 we're concerned with is in Fingal?

Zoney

murphaph wrote:

Cheers WA, just to clarify, the short bit of N32 we're concerned with is in Fingal?

According to the 2006 SI - the N32 route commences in Fingal at the junction with M1.

Wishbone Ash

murphaph wrote:

Cheers WA, just to clarify, the short bit of N32 we're concerned with is in Fingal?

Yes, according to this map:http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/Maps/MapOfFingal/FileDownload,1428,en.jpg

murphaph

Well the N32 is actually in Dublin City. I trapsed into the library in Blanch and they were unable to help me at all so I trapsed into the Ilac library and I had a look at draft Dublin County Development plans from the 1990's and you can see the N32 is entirely in Dublin City, the boundary runs along the northern side of the road. Anyway, The library didn't have the motorway order itself or indeed the EIS (I found the EIS for the Northern Cross Route in the catalogue of EIS's 1988-1995 and it was lodged by Dublin Co Co and it was number 50, running to some 100 pages but the library didn't have the actual EIS!). Now, I believe EIS's are copyright and the librarian told me that ALL copyright documents about Ireland must be submitted to the National Library but they close early today so it'll have to wait. Anyway, found 1 document of interest in the library and it's attached. The maps refered to in the public notice should in theory still be available from Fingal in their offices in Swords/Blanch. That'll have to be the next stop.....I'me determined to find the legal status of that bloody 500 yards of road! I wonder was there an EIS required for the Northern Cross Route Extension though, that would be an interesting one as it should show the completed M50/M1.

murphaph

Zoney wrote:

According to the 2006 SI - the N32 route commences in Fingal at the junction with M1.

Looking at the Dublin City development plans map, you can see the boundary runs through the centre of that junction. A part of me feels that this is why the legal status of the N32 for those 600 yards is up in the air!

spacetweek

murphaph wrote:

Well the N32 is actually in Dublin City. I trapsed into the library in Blanch and they were unable to help me at all so I trapsed into the Ilac library and I had a look at draft Dublin County Development plans from the 1990's and you can see the N32 is entirely in Dublin City, the boundary runs along the northern side of the road.

You're right Murphaph.. as confirmed also in this map, the border (coloured area) does indeed exist along the northern fringe of the road. This was news to me.