Poor Road Signage Pictures

Pfungstadter

That sign is at the end of the N7 going eastbound/An Lár:D mainline just before the M50, doubt this style will be used. This new Gobsheen style seems to be taking over. It wouldn't look so bad if they used it correctly or maybe I should say Logically.

People who design signs should look at them as if they were never on that road before, ever or even in the country and ask themselves, Are these a load of pogswallop. And will I get lost or slow down allot (on a main road) cos I can't understand them.

daymobrew

Pfungstadter wrote:

People who design signs should look at them as if they were never on that road before, ever or even in the country and ask themselves, Are these a load of pogswallop. And will I get lost or slow down a lot (on a main road) cos I can't understand them.

BINGO! Perfect description of what signs are for.
This is the logic I've tried with Fingal County Council a few times. Signs aren't for those who know where they are going.

I think you or MT should write to or phone NRA to discuss this. They might be reasonable when you actually speak to them. They might have an explanation.
I've had good conversations with Fingal and Dublin City Council Roads departments as I lobbied to get some potholes filled. Some get the results I want.

MT

Pfungstadter wrote:

People who design signs should look at them as if they were never on that road before, ever or even in the country and ask themselves, Are these a load of pogswallop. And will I get lost or slow down allot (on a main road) cos I can't understand them.

Like Daymo, I couldn't agree more. That sort of thinking should be fundamental to any mission statement the NRA might have for rolling out new signage under their recently announced 60 million euro plan.

Murphaph is working on a website to cover the problems with signage in the Republic and this would be a good channel to lobby the NRA/local authorities through. No doubt Murphaph will produce something with information and visual examples of how to do it right. Then any future comments to the authorities could carry a link to the site to reinforce your point.

I think, Daymo, as many people as possible need to make their dissatisfaction with the current approach known to the NRA. I'll do so but the more voices the more pressure - not to mention a more comprehensive range of ideas.

Victor

Who owns the photos on sabre.

Stop stalking me!

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Who owns the photos on sabre.

Stop stalking me!

I own a fair few of 'em but by no means all the irish ones.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I own a fair few of 'em but by no means all the irish ones.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=6
I think this might be the London & North Western Station, the locosexuals will know.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=7
You might explain the Irish font and úrus and sébhus for the lads. And that its Dublin 12.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=8
The red zone indicates the price band. Bye-laws and maps here: http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/getting_around/by_car/parking/park_legally_in_dublin_city.asp

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=9
Note the "At any time" to be sure to be sure. You can still stop your truck for 30 minutes for loading.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=10
Note cycle lanes that go no where.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=11
Note this is New Wapping Street, referrring to Wapping, not New Wapping. The original Wapping Street was parallel and about 100m west until the railway stations and yards were built.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=12
Note this fancy building is surrounded by utter deriliction

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=14
Of course the weight limit, on a 1845 bridge, is frequently ignored. Cars are enough to shake the bridge.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=15
Mayor Street has a chequered history. Built in the 18th century on reclaimed land, it originally stretched from what is now Amiens Street (then The Strand, literally a beach, now several km upstream) to what is now East Wall Road (then East Wall) the then limit or the reclaimed land.

When the railway yards were built, the east end was chopped off and became a Cul de Sac. It was also split in the centre thereby forming Upper Mayor Street to the East and Lower Mayor Street to the west (the convention is Dublin streets with "Lower" in their name are closer to O'Connell Bridge). The actual altitude of Upper Mayor Street is lower than Lower Mayor Street (don't ask!!!)

Also, at the west end, the original Georges Dock was extended to form the Inner Dock (also known as Excise Dock) with a short canal connecting the two. This further split the street until a bridge was added, but to pile injury upon injury, this part of the street was then made private (most likely to do with the contents of the excise warehouses).

When the Docks were redeveloped, the street remained private (under the Dublin Docklands Development Authority www.ddda.ie) and was renamed "Georges Dock".

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=19
The bridges are listed (legally protected), but could do with safety impovements and a clean.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/gallery/displayimage.php?album=270&pos=16
Note original cobbles on street and mostly original wall, but "new" footpath. Signage details here http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/getting_around/orbital_routes/

murphaph

Good post Victor. Your PM about that section of what appears to be Mayor Street actually being George's Dock and private at that was most interesting. I had noticed those odd imperial (presumably) speed limits and cheapo clamping signs before-they make sense now!

I'd be interested in getting to see spme of those maps, can any old skin walk in and look at them or do you need a secret handshake?

Hotblack Desiato

murphaph wrote:

I had noticed those odd imperial (presumably) speed limits and cheapo clamping signs before-they make sense now!

Presumably those speed limit signs have no legal force? Does the DDDA have the power to set a speed limit? And I'm pretty certain that even before the metric changeover, a 10mph limit has no legal force.

I'm sick of idiots insulting the intelligence of drivers by putting up silly 5 and 10mph signs (used to be very common at roadworks but thankfully seems to be all but eradicated now.) Clearly they don't expect that limit to be obeyed, so why not just put up a SLOW sign?

If they really really want a 30km/h limit I'm sure they can get one, but they'll have to make a case for it.

Also - the 30km/h signs on O'Connell Street - I doubt they have any legal force either (yet.)

I have another couple of favourite examples of bizarre speed signage, will try to get pictures soon

murphaph

Cheers Eoin,
Bad signage abounds, we must make inroads at it! Interestingly I recently wrote to Mr Michael Lorigan, director of transportation at Fingal Co Co. He didn't reply but I also contacted Joan Burton TD about the same issue and she contacted him, he replied to her stating he had seen my submissions and so on. Charming eh? We pay these guys wages and they can't even be arsed responding to plebians like us.

MT

Interestingly, I came across one of the Republic's old style cast iron finger posts up here - in someone's garden. I was coming over the border through Belcoo (N16/A4) and happened to spot a complete fingerpost with one direction for Dublin/Baile atha cliath plonked as a feature right in the middle of a garden. Question is, how did they come by it? Was it replaced and so acquired legitimately or is this a blatant case of theft?

Are tourists getting lost near Dublin when the signpost they should be able to rely on is really hundreds of miles away beside a rock pool and surrounded by gnomes!!? There's even a PSNI station and then a Gardai one with half a mile.

MT

On driving through Sligo recently I noticed that the old route of the N4, now bypassed by the inner relief road, has had all its signage updated to match the new R route designations. This is all pretty good with well laid out advance signage that frequently bears a striking resemblance to signs used in similar layouts in Enniskillen (in NI). However, they have occasionally got it wrong with the use of fingerposts at some junctions – yet they were able to use proper plate signage at others! And there’s the occasional mistaken use of advance signage at junctions. But given that the signage has been updated promptly – unlike the bypassed N1 – I’ll give them 8/10.

Not so good on the almost complete N15 bypass of Bundoran and Ballyshannon. The old national route through the towns has been re-designated the R267. The first mistake is fairly forgiveable, they’ve put up a temporary sign prior to the western side of the bypass instructing traffic heading for Kinlough to take the R267 (the junction for this road on the bypass isn’t yet complete). This sign should have been patched but it’s all in green.

While the signage on the bypass all looks fine – they’ve even taken the trouble to mount the yield signs at the roundabouts on two posts to avoid the otherwise inevitable twisting – the problems set in when you have to return to the old N15. This is necessary as the second half of the bypass is still being worked on. The original road is signed as the R267 on the new route but when you turn onto it you’re met with all the old green/N15 signage. Confusing or what? This is now into Donegal County Council territory and they’ve got form for failing to remove older bypassed signage. On the R route out of Donegal town you’re met with an R/white route marker and distance sign almost immediately followed by the old N15 version. They’ve had the guts of a decade to remove the latter.

Maybe I’m being harsh and maybe they will get round to installing the R267 signage when the new stretch of N15 is complete. But I think I’ll just wait and see.

As I’ve mentioned previously there’s also some really crap fingerpost signage now up in the bypassed Bundoran that’s woefully positioned – it’s a poor LA(?) offering in comparison to the excellent signage on the sparkling new N15.

Another thing to note is that this bypass also sees signage that replicates the Road Service method of signing N routes across the border. The A46 is signed in white, with brackets, on the junction with the N3. N route numbers are now signed up here in white, as opposed to yellow, on primary road signs presumably to inform motorists that they’re outside the jurisdiction.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I'd be interested in getting to see spme of those maps, can any old skin walk in and look at them or do you need a secret handshake?

Well I had the excuse of the Mayor Street / Georges Dock anomoly.

Maybe you could tell them that Store Street has 3 ends (Amiens Street, Talbot Street and Memorial Road / Beresfond Place). The reasoning as I understand it: James Joyce Street was previously Corporation Street and before that Mabbot Street (and possibly Abbot Street before that). When they changed the name from Mabbot Street to Corporation Street, the section south of Talbot Street seems to have become part of Store Street instead of part of Corporation Street.

Note the two sections of "Georges Dock" in the bottom right of the map, connected by the un-named "Mark's Lane". :rolleyes: :eek:

icdg

One of the gantrys for the Port Tunnel went up today in East Point. It confirms that:

(a) The Port Tunnel is a motorway.
(b) The Port Tunnel will be designated "M50".
(c) The NRA are determined to spread their stupid new gantry style further. Yes, the new gantry signs are in the SEM/N2 style. Or rather, the one gone up is. You can see it as far away as the DART line at Fairview.

MT

icdg wrote:

(c) The NRA are determined to spread their stupid new gantry style further. Yes, the new gantry signs are in the SEM/N2 style.

Oh dear, that's very dissappointing, if somewhat now predictable. It seems this new confusing layout is going to be installed everywhere. I wonder will they remove some of the better gantries elsewhere and replace them with this crap.:rolleyes:

Did you get any pictures of it?

Do you know, I can't think of any other country where gantry signage misleadingly gives the impression that a lane drop is approaching when it's really an off-slip. Where did they get this daft layout from - I'll have to take a look at some of the more muddled UK gantries.

Victor wrote:

Note the two sections of "Georges Dock" in the bottom right of the map, connected by the un-named "Mark's Lane". :rolleyes: :eek:

And you're calling me a nerd!!?

Pfungstadter

Why can't they have signs like this, or something closehttp://z.about.com/d/german/1/0/M/M/autobLuBlank-m.jpg
Clearly shows no lane drop!!!!

They fella designing these signs is clearly challanged and has never been to another country and seen how gantry works, or he just doesn't care about how signs work and finds his own way.

MT

Yeah, that German gantry sign gets the layout just right unlike the recent Irish offerings. The arrows clearly show that you have to leave the mainline to reach Lubeck-Genin and the airport. This is further emphasised by positioning the place names for the slip road over the hard shoulder. Compare this to the new gantry style in the Republic where the slip road destinations are misleadingly placed over the mainline and the arrow indicates that you simply continue straight ahead. It’s completely wrong.

Another confusing development of signage on the new N2 dual carriageway is the use of both half-gantries and fork signs. At 1km to the exit you’re incorrectly told that reaching Ashbourne, etc. involves remaining on the inside lane of the N2. This piece of wrong advice is further augmented by the lack of white patching that should be there to indicate the need to take an R route.

Then at 500m you’re told the opposite, that you will have to leave the carriageway for Ashbourne. In this instance white patching has been properly used to inform the driver. As in your German example this fork diagram could have been incorporated into the 1km gantry.

The last gantry before the exit isn’t too bad but I’d prefer if the German/French and continental approach had been followed. Placing slip-road signage over the hard shoulder emphasises that the mainline must be left. Considering that the NRA seemed to copy the French style of arrows couldn’t they have at least got the overhead lane arrangement the same too.:rolleyes:

All in all, a mixed bag, and is there really a need for 3 advance signs before an exit. Surely 2 would do – one at 500m and one just before the slip.


French ‘half-gantry’ signage placed over the hard shoulder to highlight that an exit is necessary.

Victor

icdg wrote:

One of the gantrys for the Port Tunnel went up today in East Point. It confirms that:

(a) The Port Tunnel is a motorway.
(b) The Port Tunnel will be designated "M50".
(c) The NRA are determined to spread their stupid new gantry style further. Yes, the new gantry signs are in the SEM/N2 style. Or rather, the one gone up is. You can see it as far away as the DART line at Fairview.

Get me a photo and I'll talk to people.

icdg

Victor wrote:

Get me a photo and I'll talk to people.

Your wish is my command. Unfortunately the fact that I'm no photographer, I'm armed only with a Nokia 6680 and the obstructions at East Point prevent me from getting a clear good snap. But here are two attempts.

Pfungstadter

Still don't like the gobsheen style, the massive over proportioned M50 at the top looks hidious. Wonder if they got their drop down arrows correct? It would be a start if they did

MT

I've sketched an alternative (see attachment) to this confusing 'half-gantry' for the approaching R135 off-slip from the new N2.

It's only a rough idea but I think it's somewhat easier to understand. It's only in black and white so you'll have to imagine the colours - it was saved as a monochrome bmp file.

Nb. The white panel would sit over the hard shoulder while the dark (think green) panel would sit over the two traffic lanes.

Chris_533976

Much better

Quote the German way of doing it on the Autobahn.

http://gettingaroundgermany.home.att.net/autobahn.htm#signs

Much better. Simple and easy to understand.

MT

Yeah Chris, the Germans seem to have put in a certain amount of prior thought and planning before going ahead with their current autobahn signs. The problem in the Republic is that everything seems so disjointed at the moment. There’s a number of different layouts on the go and each of these seems to have been dreamt up at the last moment. It’s all very ad hoc.

Why couldn’t the NRA have carried out some basic research before putting up all these misleading gantries? They have a Traffic Signs Manual detailing how to do it and if they weren’t happy with that all they had to do was flick through the net and see how things are done in other countries!

All I’ve done in that sketch is put together a few basic principles that seem common in other countries. That and bearing in mind Pfungstadter’s point about seeing the things for the first time.


Where ever possible use a vertical layout over lane arrows to give a ‘column’/lane effect.

Put slip road signage over the shoulder and don’t confuse it with the lane signage.

I felt there should be a fixed and separate position for the junction number and distance. Currently junction numbers are found in various corners, adding to inconsistency, and they’re invariably not positioned near the relevant distance.

I used the Dutch approach of using downwards arrows for straight ahead and one pointing top left for leaving the carriageway. This creates the greatest visual differentiation. Also the off-slip arrow conveniently draws your eye towards the junction panel. The currently used bottom right arrow could then be reserved for lane merges.

As in the Netherlands I think centralised destinations are better at relating to the lane beneath. Particularly so when there’s just one wide panel for two or more lanes. The current NRA approach of duplicating the info for each lane - like this - is just daft.

I think it’s best if route numbers go bottom as this replicates the layout of ground level signs and let’s face it Irish motorists go by destinations not road numbers.

When other route numbers are shown on a panel, apart from the number of the road it sits over, then maybe putting ‘to’ infront of them while placing them beneath the road’s actual designation might remove some confusion.



Surely the ‘brains’ at the NRA could have come up with a more logical system than the one they have now. I wonder how much the taxpayer pays them?:rolleyes:

murphaph

MT wrote:

I've sketched an alternative (see attachment) to this confusing 'half-gantry' for the approaching R135 off-slip from the new N2.

It's only a rough idea but I think it's somewhat easier to understand. It's only in black and white so you'll have to imagine the colours - it was saved as a monochrome bmp file.

Nb. The white panel would sit over the hard shoulder while the dark (think green) panel would sit over the two traffic lanes.

Sure the clowns have already erected a perfectly good sign on another N road in Clare which does conform exactly to the Traffic Signs Manual........


Note the 'exit' arrow located over the hard shoulder. The meaning is immediately obvious and no unnecessary repetion of any destination like we see all over the N2. Absolutely ridiculous given both projects are NRA babies!

MT

I’d forgotten about that gantry, Murphaph. I can’t understand why they ditched that layout from the TSM in favour of the crap on the N2. But I’ve a suspicion it might have something to do with Rennick’s involvement. They designed the stuff for the South Eastern motorway – the first instance of the misleading signage making an appearance – so were presumably involved with the similar N2 stuff. Do you know who had the contract for the N18 signs?

Failing that, could the difference by due to the various regional design offices the NRA has. I wonder if they’ve stupidly allowed each to work away without any reference to what the others were at?

But that seems unlikely as there are a number of different designs up in the Dublin area alone. This one, snapped by yourself, also comes much closer to providing understandable directions than the N2/SEM versions. Though I still don’t like the way it seems to imply three approaching lane drops, if that makes sense.

mackerski

MT wrote:

Though I still don’t like the way it seems to imply three approaching lane drops, if that makes sense.

A down arrow doesn't mean "this lane about to drop". It means "to reach the named destination, you'd better be in this lane".

Dermot

murphaph

MT wrote:

Do you know who had the contract for the N18 signs?

I've never seen a sign not made by Rennicks tbh.

MT wrote:

Failing that, could the difference by due to the various regional design offices the NRA has. I wonder if they’ve stupidly allowed each to work away without any reference to what the others were at?

That is the likely cause, shocking as it seems.

MT wrote:

But that seems unlikely as there are a number of different designs up in the Dublin area alone. This one, snapped by yourself, also comes much closer to providing understandable directions than the N2/SEM versions.

But that sign isn't even on a national primary route. It was erected by Dublin City Council, independent of the NRA. Amazing how they get it almost spot on as per the TSM and the NRA make a constant balls of it.

MT wrote:

Though I still don’t like the way it seems to imply three approaching lane drops, if that makes sense.

That's the only part of it that doesn't really comply with the TSM but it's a minor failing.

Chris_533976

MT wrote:

But that seems unlikely as there are a number of different designs up in the Dublin area alone. This one, snapped by yourself, also comes much closer to providing understandable directions than the N2/SEM versions. Though I still don’t like the way it seems to imply three approaching lane drops, if that makes sense.

I still think it hilarious that that gantry tells people to get in the bus lane

mackerski

Chris_533976 wrote:

I still think it hilarious that that gantry tells people to get in the bus lane

It doesn't - it tells them that it is one of three lanes that will allow them to proceed in the named directions. During bus lane hours (or is it 24-hour bus lane?), drivers of non-buses must choose one of the other two lanes.

Dermot

Victor

MT wrote:

And you're calling me a nerd!!?

Pfungstadter

Why can't they just do something simple like this,
untitled.JPG

influenced from germany, but it makes sence,
I'm no expert or claim to be & i've no experience with signs but managed to do this with paintbrush so it's not the best but it's better then that cráp on the SE m'way and the N2 and now the port tunnel

murphaph

Just a bit of good news for once on this thread. I was in Wexford this weekend and although far from perfect you can see the funding for regional road signage has had an effect down there. I noticed very good advance direction, direction and route confirmation signs on regional roads which were as good as the UK in every respect. It can be done. The LA's need to brush up on the TSM and adhere to it is all! No pics but hope to get some next weekend. On a side note, the short realignment of the N30 from Eniscorthy to near Clonroche is pretty good and the signage is perfect with double pole supports for warning signs and spot on direction signage too. The great thing about proper signage is that even with the poor maintenance LA's generally provide here, the signs should last a long time and perform perefctly.

MT

Yeah, that’s a nice combination of German and Irish gantry signage, Pfungstadter. Though just to be pedantic there’s normally no white patching on motorway signs – they’re all white on blue. The NRA really should adopt a clear and accurate format along these lines and then apply it universally. There’s far too much chopping and changing, not to mention incorrect signage, at the moment.

BTW how do you post an attachment in that way, ie. as a jpg link and not in the box like thing at the end of the message?

mackerski wrote:

A down arrow doesn't mean "this lane about to drop". It means "to reach the named destination, you'd better be in this lane".

I know that. It’s not the arrows that I felt implied a three way split in the carriageway but the positioning of the information in the panel above. I don’t know the road layout very well, however, I believe they do want traffic heading for the airport to get into the outside lane. So even though there’s a roundabout approaching and not actual lane drops, the latter scenario seems to apply to the rightmost lane. This should be better indicated on the sign by using a dashed line or a separate panel for the airport/M50 direction.

For the two leftmost lanes there is no split – they both lead to the N7-9/Limerick and Cork – and so the destinations should be stacked in a column on one panel covering both lanes to remove ambiguity. Currently the layout’s hopelessly ambiguous. There’s a ‘get in lane’ sign above one unbroken three lane panel, which is about as clear as mud. Then within the panel separate blocks of destinations have been placed over each arrow seemingly signifying that there is indeed a need to get into one of the three lanes. This again is misleading as they really want traffic to form a two lane stream to the left and a one lane stream to the right.

Now I may not have grasped the scenario fully but according to what I think the council wants I’ve attempted to lay out a less ambiguous gantry in the attachment below. I used a number of different design standards from around Europe but it’s still only a rough idea. The distance panel for the approaching ‘slip’ road is only a guestimate. I just feel that such junctions should have this standardised panel on all gantries to give drivers a consistent point of reference.

Once again it’s in monochrome so you’ll have to imagine the various blue and green patches. :rolleyes: I should be more computer literate.

Pic: Murphaph’s shot of the actual gantry again.

Pfungstadter

Not sure, it's the only way I could figure out to, it's the paper clip symbol in the text editor.

Anyway, about the style, I just remember the original M1 signs and they had a shield for the M1 and this is pretty good thing and should have been kept. the patching for road numbers, Well on some signs it's done and others it isn't. I like the route number patching and have seen it in other countries.

There is another original M1 sign left on the Airport Slip / Spur going towards the roundabout fom the Airport. It's a metre behind a new sign and is a distance sign 10km to the city

Pfungstadter

Also if you save an image save is as a jpeg, used a lot less memory
it's in an option for file type when you 'save as' you sketch and is wasier to upload

MT

I'll try doing that next time I've a sketch to upload.:)

Anyway, about the style, I just remember the original M1 signs and they had a shield for the M1 and this is pretty good thing and should have been kept. ...

Like this one? I'm not sure why there's no patching on motorway signage in the TSM. I think it may have something to do with the fact that the UK introduced the system before the guildford rules for primary and secondary signage came into being. Presumably they decided to leave motorway signage unaltered and the Republic copied this. Another possibility is that all white on blue signage is easier to read at motorway speeds.

Where there's patching on M'way signage in the Republic I think it's just a case of the particular NRA regional office bungling it.

MT

This prismatic VMS from the UK highlights a minor inconsistency in the sequence of signs for Ashbourne etc. on the N2. As in the British version the directions for the R135 should be in a black on white patch on a green background. It’s odd that this initial N2 half gantry is incorrect in this way considering the following fork ADS gets it right!?

The UK gantry also highlights a major flaw in British road numbering IMO – the use of A designations for secondary routes on white signage. The Republic’s system of all N routes on green backed signs with all R routes on white is much less confusing. In many ways the designation A for a UK road is less than meaningless as it could either be a primary or secondary route. There might as well be no letter at all as the sign colour is the only determining indication. No doubt there’ll soon be B road primary routes.:rolleyes:

mackerski

I believe that the reason for not patching motorway signs has to do with a combination of clutter and expectation. Clutter because at higher speeds, you want the driver to have as little as possible to parse. Expectation because (certainly according to UK best-practice) you're not supposed to have junctions serving (edit) destinations-that-are-not-important (and if a junction should happen also to serve such a destination, it violates principle 1 to signpost it from the mainline).

Dermot

murphaph

The shield on the M1 sign also appears on the M7 before the M9 split. It's the only other place I've seen it.

Victor

icdg wrote:

Your wish is my command. Unfortunately the fact that I'm no photographer, I'm armed only with a Nokia 6680 and the obstructions at East Point prevent me from getting a clear good snap. But here are two attempts.

Hmm, not much to work on. I wonder If I can get a look at the signage drawings.

Pfungstadter

Just thinking too about this new crap gantry,

isn't the convention in Europe to have the Route number below the destination? at the bottom of the sign.

except on distance signs.

HelterSkelter

Lads,

I was driving in the UK at the weekend. Drove from London to Liverpool and back. I have to say I thought their motorway signage is much worse than ours. It is very confusing. I ended up in Manchester when I was trying to get back to Dublin! I wish I had of taken some photos of the signs now.

Alun

HelterSkelter wrote:

I was driving in the UK at the weekend. Drove from London to Liverpool and back. I have to say I thought their motorway signage is much worse than ours. It is very confusing. I ended up in Manchester when I was trying to get back to Dublin! I wish I had of taken some photos of the signs now.

To be fair though, the network of motorways around the North West of England is something of a maze, even for the people that live there. There's nothing here in Ireland that even remotely compares to that as far as complexity goes, and if there was I dread to think what a mess the NRA would make out of signing it.

MT

HelterSkelter wrote:

I have to say I thought their motorway signage is much worse than ours. It is very confusing. I ended up in Manchester when I was trying to get back to Dublin!

I agree, the gantry signage used in the UK frequently has a very poor layout and is in no way easy to comprehend quickly and clearly. The destinations are often arranged in what appear like sentences written from left to right. This contrasts with the much clearer international approach of using columns of info that better relate to the lanes below.

Then there’s often two much info provided which when combined with the horizontal layout creates a block of almost impenetrable text. To make matters even more unclear, lane arrows are usually separated from the directions above – or not present at all – making it doubly difficult to make a visual connection between the horizontal info and the relevant lane. And there’s also the needless repetition of destinations in the way the NRA has foolishly copied. There’s also all that egregious grey panelling that’s there for no good reason.

Pic: The horizontal layout for an approaching slip road – without arrows for the mainline – just isn’t easy on the eye.

Pic: The same goes for an approaching lane drop.

Pic: There is a logic but it doesn’t half look ridiculous. Never mind baffling if you're not familiar with the layout – surely a key test for all road signs.

MT

murphaph wrote:

I noticed very good advance direction, direction and route confirmation signs on regional roads which were as good as the UK in every respect. It can be done.

That’s good to hear. Hopefully this example of good installation will set a precedent for doing it right elsewhere. I think Donegal was part of this scheme – I believe five counties had their signage redone – and the standard of new signage is pretty good there too.

On a side note, the short realignment of the N30 from Eniscorthy to near Clonroche is pretty good and the signage is perfect with double pole supports for warning signs and spot on direction signage too.

They’d seemed to be doing this on the new stretch of N15 bypassing Bundoran but for some reason decided to stop using two posts for the yield signs on roundabouts at the northern end of the road. I wonder did they run out mid way? :rolleyes: How inconsistent can you get – the correct and then substandard method of mounting signs in a single scheme!

The great thing about proper signage is that even with the poor maintenance LA's generally provide here, the signs should last a long time and perform perefctly.

This is something I’ve always said. The correct installation, positioning and choice of materials accounts for a huge amount of a signs longevity. Often in the Republic the maintenance is probably not much worse than in the UK but signs have essentially disintegrated because the workmanship and materials left them insufficiently robust to deal with everyday wear and tear.

But on this point there’s still one problem – the choice of a particular material. The aluminium sheet used for signage plates down there is apparently thinner/less robust than the equivalent alloy/thickness used throughout NI at least and I believe Britain too. The result is that even signs which have been assembled correctly and positioned well still seem more susceptible to deterioration from flying debris or minor collisions than their equivalents up here.

There are some examples of this flimsier sheeting in the pics you recently snapped in the SE - hope you don't mind me linking to them.

Pic: Okay, this might seem uber pedantic but the only reason I highlight it is because it tends to get worse. Even with this newish assembly the town centre panel seems to have already been slightly bent.

Pic: When tightened into place the weaker plates often flex so that where they meet is easily visible. Again, this seems pedantic and isn’t a problem at this stage, it’s just that it exposes a flaw in the material used which will fail to withstand knocks, unlike more robust sheeting.

Pic: This sign has suffered a knock and it shows. I’ve actually seen signs driven into up here by trucks and they never end up in the crumpled state the sheeting down there bends into.

Pic: I’ve been told that apparently the brackets securing a sign to its post could loosen when the sign is flexed (as in a collision) and may be the cause of so many signs having slipped down their posts. Could the weaker sheeting have been responsible for this sign slipping down its post after a knock - Gaeltacht Yield. Another example?

Pic: These urban boundary signs often show up the difference the most. They often get knocked a lot – north and south – and yet down there the plates end up very crumpled by comparison.

Pic: Lots of signs down there have their corners bent like this. It never happens to anywhere near the same degree up here – again the less robust aluminium plate seems the most likely culprit. Another flimsy example.

Pic: Someone must have leaned on it.

To alleviate this ‘crumpling’ problem the UK seems to use more robust plates while the French use a fold on the edge of their signs to strengthen them.

The end result of the use of this flimsier sheeting is that many of the new signs erected in Donegal in recent years have deteriorated further and faster than those across the border in NI.


Totally OT: Murphaph, or anyone else for that matter, do you know what these palm tree-like plants are called? Is there anywhere in Ireland that sells them? I’ve seen them a lot and just think that palm trees in Ireland are completely weird.

Alun

MT wrote:

Totally OT: Murphaph, or anyone else for that matter, do you know what these palm tree-like plants are called? Is there anywhere in Ireland that sells them? I’ve seen them a lot and just think that palm trees in Ireland are completely weird.

Not really palm trees, they're Cordyline Australis or the New Zealand cabbage tree. They actually quite like the temperate climate down here ... nice and damp like New Zealand!

You can buy them easily here in pretty much any garden centre. Not sure how they'd get on up North, where the climate is less "temperate' in the winter.

MT

Strange cabbages....

But yeah, I think there is a sort of 'diagonal line' that runs across Ireland from the North West to the South East where if you're South of it you'll enjoy milder winters. I'm just hoping that as these things are growing all over Donegal - saw one up near Malin Head - that they'd also grow in Fermanagh. Indeed, inspite of the cooler winters there was a row of them planted outside the Odyssey Arena in Belfast. Haven't been there for a number of years so don't know how they got on.

I'm not into gardening really, just fancied a few of these 'exotic' things to barbecue under.

Pfungstadter

The thing about thicker signs as said to be in N.I. is that they can be a safety problem. Signs are supposed to collapse and crumple upon impact, not stay up. Saying that you are on better cos your signs are thicker well maybe not.

So I'm quite happy that signs in the republic are thinner, gives you a better chance if you hit one.

murphaph

Yeah but if you collide with a sign it's the poles that are concreted into the ground that will do all the damage, hence the lattix design from Norway which collapses on impact rather than standing up.

I'm still no convinced that our aluminium is actually weaker. I just think we have poorer siting of signage (too close to the carriageway) which results in more frequent collisions and I beliee our maintenance regimes are poorer than NI so that a knocked sign remains that way for years.

I also blame poorer driving standards which result in drivers themselves having spats with even well positioned signage more frequently than the UK. Hell, I've seen fork signs on the M50 well in from the tarmac with gouges out of them, I mean-who the hell causes that sort of damage?

Anyway, I can't find that list of 5 counties that were included in the Regional Signage Upgrade programme but Wexford, Donegal and Kerry were three, anyone know the other two?

It's amazing how you can see the variances in signage quality across the country. Even crossing from Fingal into Dublin City or Kildare, notice that Fingal favours cheap aluminium plate "keep left" signs at traffic islands whereas the other two prefer proper internally illuminated plastic ones.

How's NI on that type of sign MT? Are the cheaper ones prevalent at all or are they all the prope plastic ones?

Victor

murphaph wrote:

whereas the other two prefer proper internally illuminated plastic ones.

"Illuminated bollards".

murphaph

That's them, cheers Victor They're a much better job.