Poor Road Signage Pictures

murphaph

Hi all, some of the members of SABRE, including myself are trying to collate images of rubbish road signage to petition the NRA and local authorities into some sort of coherent action plan to standardise design and installation (and bloody maintenance!) of road traffic signs in the republic. We'd appreciate it immensely if you could take the time to take reasonable resolution pics of poor signage in your area, indicating the exact location of it and what you feel is wrong with it in your post. Try to keep them to 100kB or so. In a couple of weeks a proper website will be set up AFAIK. Will keep you posted in this thread. Ideally we should have a system similar to best practice in the UK on all our roads (keeping our own yellow diamond signs because they are simply easier to see than the red triangles, but vastly improving some of the pictograms!), particularly improving our diabolical directional signage which s also impacting negatively on our tourism sector.

This may seem pedantic but every other northern European country takes standardised, predictable road signage for granted. We should too.

murphaph

To start the ball rolling, I've attached some images highlighting incorrect, poorly designed and damaged and uncared for signage.

The direction signage illustrates clearly why finger posts should get the boot immediately and be replaced by fixed panel direction signage, which is virtually impervious to tampering by kids etc. Also note that this ecclectic bunch of signs are almost the only direction signs present at what is a 4 way crossroads on a very busy regional road linking Lucan-Blanchardstown-St. Margarets. (another panel exists on the approach from one of the MINOR roads! but no other signage at the junction itself, so traffic approaching from the north (yes it's a virtual dead end but that's not the point) has NO directional signage at all.

The photograph is taken looking north from the canal bridge in the attached aerial image.

subway

how about posting an overview of the jucntions in question from googlempas or myhome.ie?
might make it a bit easier to understand what needs to be done at the junction.

i can think of a few,
ill try to get some pics over the next few days.

murphaph

The roundabout and bus lane signage illustrates clearly that some council staff simply don't know the legal meaning of signs and can merrily erect the wrong sign and walk away.

Note the sign on the roandabout should be a "turn left" arrow (either white on blue or black on white in a red circle), not a "keep left" sign as has been erected. previously at this locaton, the council had white on blue "keep left" signs here and when I complained, they put the old irish "keep left" signs up instead. It is clear that the staff don't know the legal meaning of either sign, or indeed that legally traffic must TURN LEFT as it enters a roundabout.

The Bus lane signs are really odd. The one nearest the camera is 100% correct as a bus lane is indeed just about to begin on the nearside. The one behind it is completely wrong-it means a with-flow bus lane is in force on the offside! That means that legally traffic can drive in either lane and not be prosecuted as the sign conficts with the road markings. In combination with the near sign, this pair mean the bus lane has magically switched to the other side of the thick white line in the space of 15 feet!:eek:

murphaph

subway wrote:

how about posting an overview of the jucntions in question from googlempas or myhome.ie?
might make it a bit easier to understand what needs to be done at the junction.

i can think of a few,
ill try to get some pics over the next few days.

Excellent idea subway. I had done this on SABRE but didn't want to be too demanding of folks here! If people want to do that, It's great.

murphaph

The Warning signs illustrate that councils erect signage that is too easily damaged and interfered with, often being twisted right around. Note also that the attached warning sign alludes to a junction that is a 4 way crossroads but only indicates one road off the priority road. It is incredibly poor, especially considering that the sign they should have used ( a simple crossroads sign but with the left and bottom arms thickened to indicate the priority road runs around to the left as the driver approaches). The twisted right around sign in question is intended to warn drivers approaching from the east in the attached aerial shot. The junction in question is at Clonsilla Station. The priority road runs from the south, over the level crossing and canal bridge, then heads east.

The other twisted sign is only warning of the ACTUAL LEVEL CROSSING ITSELF, so obviously it's very important to make sure the pole it attaches to is well clear of traffic that could possibly twist it. Note the idiotic location the council chose-they could have easily mounted it to the inside of that retaining wall and the sign would have been safe, but no.

Chris_533976

The one coming onto Cobh island is a joke... Ill see if I can get a pic of it soon, but its bloody dangerous to stop a car there.

Andrew Duffy

I don't have a picture unfortunately, but the junction joining the N4 westbound west of Lucan is incorrectly signed. This is a left-on, left-off junction and the approach has a correct Irish turn left sign. The central reservation barrier carries a european turn left sign and a full access dual-carriageway t-junction warning sign (i.e., the line for the side road goes across the reservation, where in actuality there is a six foot wide thirty foot drop).

Here's the junction:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=lucan&ll=53.355271,-6.46127&spn=0.004476,0.009291

daymobrew

murphaph wrote:

The Warning signs illustrate that councils erect signage that is too easily damaged and interfered with, often being twisted right around.

Down in Riverwood I've gotten the wrench out and fixed a few road signs that have been twisted, mostly by the wind.
If Fingal County Council are slow to fix these, it might be quicker to do it yourself. You will get suspicious looks.
I realise that you want to fix the root cause.

murphaph

daymobrew wrote:

Down in Riverwood I've gotten the wrench out and fixed a few road signs that have been twisted, mostly by the wind.
If Fingal County Council are slow to fix these, it might be quicker to do it yourself. You will get suspicious looks.
I realise that you want to fix the root cause.

Fair play to you Damien but I'm not gonna go down that route personally. As you say, the root cause needs to be addressed. I see the contractors digging up the roundabout traffic islands at the Ongar end of the new distributor road. I assume they are installing the poles for directional signage-I mean, could they not anticipate the need for these poles when they intitially poured the damn concrete to form the island.

The twisted signage is only symptomatic of the real problem-a complete lack of interest by our local authorities in doing anything properly. The idiots have to start by adding a screw through the bracket and into the pole to stop wind/kids from mollesting signage. The standard bracket can be seen in the attached images. Clearly a ridiculous design for a street sign.

Charles Darwin

I can't contribute much to this as I don't have a digital camera but just reading it reminded me of a company I came across in the course of some recent research. Maybe their products might be of use to our local authorities, if they're not already using them? http://www.poletech.co.uk/homepage.html

Maskhadov

I heard the government signed a €60 million contract a few weeks back for new signs. They said they would be of a new design.

**edit.. some of those signs are funny

BrianD3

I don't have any pics but at the main roundabout in Cavan town the direction signs are placed in such a way that they block drivers vision. When you approach the roundabout from certain directions you end up coming to a near stop as you peer around the signs to see if there is traffic on the roundabout that you need to yield to. Lorry drivers have no problems as they can look straught over the signs Seems like a silly design anyway.

My owns pet hate is signs at roadworks. As we all know, signs are often non- standard, inconsistent, illogical, illegible, dirty, missing, blown over, left up months (or sometimes years) after works have finished etc.

Andrew Duffy

BrianD3's message reminded me - the N2 through Castleblaney is poorly signed. The road turns left then right though the town, and until recently neither turn was adequately signed. Now the left turn is signed in advance, although trucks can still obscure the sign. The right turn, however, is at a small roundabout and has no advance signage, just a low level confirmation sign at the exit.

daymobrew

murphaph wrote:

The idiots have to start by adding a screw through the bracket and into the pole to stop wind/kids from mollesting signage.

I might try that on the ones near me (though they haven't moved for over 12 months now). Just drill a hole and chuck a big bolt in the back. Maybe one with an Allen key to tighten.

murphaph

daymobrew wrote:

I might try that on the ones near me (though they haven't moved for over 12 months now). Just drill a hole and chuck a big bolt in the back. Maybe one with an Allen key to tighten.

The majority of twisting on well positioned signage (ie, set back from vehicular traffic) occurs due to kids and wind. This can be eliminated with a small 1/8" pilot hole drilled through bracket and pole and a self tapping screw (preferably a one way security screw but it's not important) inserted through it. It would take 60 seconds per sign and kids won't bother with them, nor will the wind be able to twist them.

One of the "keep left" signs at the (not yet opened) Clonsilla link road/Ongar Distributor Road junction (currently acces to Mt. Symon) has been twisted. How many years of sign twisting does it take for these idiots to use two poles or at least a better bracket?? :mad:

Litcagral

"BUS LANE NOT IN OPERATION"

This one confuses me. Does it mean:

(a) Any vehicles can use the Bus Lane?

(b) The Bus Lane is closed to all vehicles ?

Traffic

Any Vehicle can use the bus lane

bungeecork

Ppls. forgive here - am making up the road numbers to illustrate a point, but the signs do exist. The N11 (M11?) signs made me smile on Sunday...

Driving north to Dublin, huge clear white on blue signs, one over each lane, all next to each other. The middle and right lanes read;
Middle lane: "N4 N8 N9 N11 N14 N24 N42" and arrow
Right lane_: "N4 N8 N9 N11 N14 N24 N42" and arrow

I'm no engineer, and no psychologist, but one large sign covering both lanes and hey presto - driver reads 9 items instead of 16.

A friend from the UK once said to me "Road signs in Ireland are a bit Irish, aren't they..."

Litcagral

Traffic wrote:

Any Vehicle can use the bus lane

Thought so. It would be more appropriate to have "BUS LANE OPEN TO ALL VEHICLES".

Chris_533976

Thinking about it ->

if you come from the Kinsale Road roundabout towards the tunnel in Cork, theres an overhead sign (get in lane) with the left lane going to Mahon, middle 2 to N25 east.

Problem is is that the sign is directly after a corner in the road. So it looks like the arrows are pointing to the wrong lanes.

spacetweek

bungeecork wrote:

A friend from the UK once said to me "Road signs in Ireland are a bit Irish, aren't they..."

Grrrr!!!! :mad:

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Grrrr!!!! :mad:

What are you Grrring for spacetweek?! If we didn't constantly make a balls of things like road signage we wouldn't have the english saying such things (I've heard scots say that 'irish' thing too btw).

MT

I mentioned this phenomenon when posting here about the state of Irish road signage some time ago. The answer to why so many signs are knocked around throughout the Republic lies in the photographs attached to post 10. The brackets used to secure these are inferior to those in use throughout NI and I presume the rest of the UK. Up here the brackets are pre-punched with indentations that then grip the pole tightly. The plain variety snapped in those pics would have much less resistance to movement. If this basic bracket is employed on all signage down there that would to some extent explain the amount of signs twisted out of position.

Then again you still require competent workers to do the job right. One of the signs in those attachments looks as if it hasn't even been put on horizontally. Indeed, that reminds me of one new speed limit sign I stopped by down there where the manufacturers had went to the difficulty of filing in a pattern of groves on the pole prior to galvanisation to enable the brackets to grip. The problem was that whoever put the sign up hadn't bothered to place it in the right place and so all that effort went to waste.

Another factor that ensures signs up here cannot be knocked out of place is the use of at least two poles per sign. Although more costly this method is guaranteed to keep signs facing the correct way. In this respect finger posts are never used for important directional signage in the UK.

To add to these points, the use of flimsier aluminium sheets for sign plates in the Republic would further increase the risk of distortion of the displayed info. through the inevitable collisions with passing trucks, etc.

Put simply, if the techniques and materials employed in the UK were put to use down there the quality and durability of signage in the RoI would be significantly improved.

A friend from the UK once said to me "Road signs in Ireland are a bit Irish, aren't they..."

He would have been more accurate had he just said they were sh!te.

murphaph

MT wrote:

I mentioned this phenomenon when posting here about the state of Irish road signage some time ago. The answer to why so many signs are knocked around throughout the Republic lies in the photographs attached to post 10. The brackets used to secure these are inferior to those in use throughout NI and I presume the rest of the UK. Up here the brackets are pre-punched with indentations that then grip the pole tightly. The plain variety snapped in those pics would have much less resistance to movement. If this basic bracket is employed on all signage down there that would to some extent explain the amount of signs twisted out of position.

I have seen those brackets down here too! They have a pattern stamped into the bracket alright. I'll try to get a pic of one. They should be the only type used on single pole installations.

MT wrote:

Another factor that ensures signs up here cannot be knocked out of place is the use of at least two poles per sign. Although more costly this method is guaranteed to keep signs facing the correct way. In this respect finger posts are never used for important directional signage in the UK.

The Irish Traffic Signs Manual states that in urban/pedestrian areas as few poles as possible should be used to ensure pedestrians are unimpeded and visual intrusion is kept to a minimum. The manual also states that suitable anti-roation measures should be taken on single pole installations! Cantilevered 'H' type poles are one solution (used on the Dublin orbital Signage actually), or more simply a correctly installed single pole with anti-rotation brackets. The local authorities here simply fail to follow the very adequate guidelines. Outside urban areas the use of two poles would eliminate twisted signage almost instantly, but it seems this is not favoured down here. Stupid really.

MT wrote:

Put simply, if the techniques and materials employed in the UK were put to use down there the quality and durability of signage in the RoI would be significantly improved.

Totally agree. our design manual is basically a carbon copy of the UK's, but it is not adhered to by the local authorities-see my other thread on this subject.

Victor

Stickied.

murphaph

Cheers Victor, hopefully people will begin to add their own pictures with location and description of the problem and we can start building a database.

If anyone would like a copy of the Traffic Signs Manual feel free to PM me and I'll send it to you. It's an eye opener.

murphaph

It appears that the contractors have begun taking down the incorrect bus lane signs on the Ongar road, hopefully they'll replace them with lawful signage in the near future. Seems like a result though. Now for the rest of Ireland...:eek:

ford fiesta

I think the worst signs are those approaching any airport for example, when you are on the M50 going North towords Dublin Airport..A sign to take the next junction left for Belfast and a picture of an aeroplane!!
So to someone not used to this, they would think that they are going to Belfast airport!...Can they not just say "DUBLIN AIRPORT"!

Another one is Knock Airport, all the road signs just point in the direction of "Airport"..not naming whick f**king airport it is.

There are around 10 airports in this country and none are signposted as they should!

Must be very frustrating for foreign drivers !

absinth

Sign at cork airport advising French speakers to drive on the right:

http://blog.rymus.net/2006/01/04/conduire-a-what/

(found here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054868769&highlight=conduire )

Litcagral

ford fiesta wrote:

There are around 10 airports in this country QUOTE]

40 approx.

Victor

Litcagral wrote:

ford fiesta wrote:

There are around 10 airports in this country

40 approx.

Theres a difference between an airport and an airfield.

MT

There's one thing I'm slightly curious about in relation to signage down there. Why does the NRA use a white/black chevron styled brick pattern on some new roundabouts when chevrons signs in the Republic are always yellow/black? It's certainly a point of pedantry but it just looks a bit daft when the chevron signs on the roundabout use a different colour to the big one circling the whole roundabout. Is there a difficulty in locating a supplier of yellow bricks?

Moreover, why are chevron signs used at all when the same pattern is built into the structure itself?

murphaph

MT wrote:

There's one thing I'm slightly curious about in relation to signage down there. Why does the NRA use a white/black chevron styled brick pattern on some new roundabouts when chevrons signs in the Republic are always yellow/black? It's certainly a point of pedantry but it just looks a bit daft when the chevron signs on the roundabout use a different colour to the big one circling the whole roundabout. Is there a difficulty in locating a supplier of yellow bricks?

A bit of an anomally but not a major one. I'd imagine the reflective brick is difficult to source in anything other than white as that's the common one used in the UK. Ireland is too small a market to get yellow ones I would imagine and it's not een every roundabout that has a reflective brick chevron ring.

MT wrote:

Moreover, why are chevron signs used at all when the same pattern is built into the structure itself?

Added emphasis and the bricks can get dirty quickly, I'd be happier to keep the chevron signage too tbh. I could live without the rather pointless "turn left" signs though.

MT

Added emphasis and the bricks can get dirty quickly,

I've seen a number of roundabouts up here that have had brick chevrons for years and they're still easily visible. And they didn't have the chevron signs. Then again the council may have had these power hosed at some point.

I could live without the rather pointless "turn left" signs though.

I think technically the blue arrow signs on the roundabout are actually instructing you to go straight on, ie. continue round clockwise. But yeah, I'd agree, they're pointless.

I think one of the things that must be given consideration with ever increasing amounts of signage on our roads is the potential for information overload. I think there was an article not too long ago in the New Scientist on this topic of too many signs on our streets. While it's important that the signs we need to navigate and drive safely are displayed the authorities should try not to go beyond a threshold of what the average driver can take in. I often find myself virtually bewildered at certain junctions, especially in towns, by the shear amount of info. you're bombarded with. So in this respect needless duplication like the blue arrow and chevron signs on roundabouts should be done away with.

I also feel that with too many signs they begin to lose their impact: when motorists see too many they probably just switch off. Then there's all the added cost and maintenance of so many superfluous signs. For example, there's just no need for three pairs of warning signs on the run into major roundabouts in the Republic. One or two on your side of the carriageway would quite adequate.

Victor

MT wrote:

I think technically the blue arrow signs on the roundabout are actually instructing you to go straight on, ie. continue round clockwise. But yeah, I'd agree, they're pointless.

I think his problem is the black ones on white backgrounds inside red circles, which strictly speaking, means don't go left.

murphaph

MT wrote:

I think technically the blue arrow signs on the roundabout are actually instructing you to go straight on, ie. continue round clockwise. But yeah, I'd agree, they're pointless.

No, the signs are "turn left" compulsory ones. They are present because legally (as outlined in the RotR and presumably the HC) you "enter a roundabout by turning to the left". If they weren't there and the roundabout warning sign was missing for any reason, you could legally turn right and hit someone head on and it wouldn't be your fault! A "straight ahead" order is conveyed with a vertical arrow with it's head at the top. They're still pointless though so long as proper roundabout warning signs are present (mini roundabouts never have them!).

Victor

murphaph wrote:

If they weren't there and the roundabout warning sign was missing for any reason, you could legally turn right and hit someone head on and it wouldn't be your fault!

Thats why roundabouts should have lane arrows. get them for going the wrong way on a one-way street.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Thats why roundabouts should have lane arrows. get them for going the wrong way on a one-way street.

Very true Victor-mini roundabouts sometimes have them, they invariably have them on UK mini roundabouts. They should really be painted on all min-roundabouts here too, but that's just symptomatic of the attitude here.

MT

Yeah, that's an interesting point you raise Murphaph. The other thing I notice about mini-roundabouts down there is the lack of a blue circular sign telling motorists to circle in a clockwise direction. Instead there's just a yellow diamond warning of the mini-roundabout ahead. Does this mean, as you've highlighted with large roundabouts, that there's no legal onus on a driver to circle a mini-r the correct way? Add to this the lack of lane arrows and you've a recipe for some interesting conversations with a traffic cop!

MT

Does anyone have any links to diagrams of the signage for the proposed motorway service areas?

Here's a link to some European MSA signage on this UK trivia site.

Personally, I like the German half gantry sign at the top. Displayed like this the information would clear and highly visible.

icdg

Supposedly we are getting a whole new sign style during the year. Given that they are probably not going to wholesale renumber the roads (again), and that it will have to remain dual-language, I would say we are in for some sort of update of the current system. Probably more of the style of signage on the South Eastern Motorway and N2 Ashbourne dual carrigeway schemes.

Often forgotten about, there's a service area off the N4 at Mullingar. I think it just gets brown tourist signage with "Services" on it though.

pedestrian

Murphaph, you appear to be very familiar you the junction at Clonsilla train station. Do you know if there are plans to improve the safety of the access to the train station for pedestrians? The reason I ask this question is because I was hit by a car whilst walking across the bridge there this week - nothing serious, but it could have been a lot worse.

murphaph

pedestrian wrote:

Murphaph, you appear to be very familiar you the junction at Clonsilla train station. Do you know if there are plans to improve the safety of the access to the train station for pedestrians? The reason I ask this question is because I was hit by a car whilst walking across the bridge there this week - nothing serious, but it could have been a lot worse.

Yes, IE lodged a planning application recently for a new pedestrian bridge over the canal to the station proper. I have no idea on the details but I remember reading in one of the local papers that it's to be built in 2006 (could be December!). Presumably the bridge will be outside the eisting bridge walls, on the Leixlip side. Without further measures like decent footpaths and pedestrian crossings it won't be enough to make the junction acceptablely safe. I'm not surprised you were hit. I'd say people get 'nipped' every week and it's just lucky that nobody's been crushed against the canal bridge wall. I use the bridge as a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist an car driver and it's not particularly safe for any group! Maybe lorry drivers are relatively 'safe' using this junction!

spacetweek

murphaph wrote:

Very true Victor-mini roundabouts sometimes have them, they invariably have them on UK mini roundabouts. They should really be painted on all min-roundabouts here too, but that's just symptomatic of the attitude here.

Nonsense. The only thing that should be done with mini-roundabouts to get rid of them.

Alun

spacetweek wrote:

Nonsense. The only thing that should be done with mini-roundabouts to get rid of them.

Why's that then? I think they work just as well as ordinary roundabouts in those places where limited space prohibits building a full blown version. What do you have against them?

MT

As I see it, the problem with mini-roundabouts in the Republic is that they aren't accompanied by an instructive blue circle sign with clockwise arrows (as in the UK and anti-clockwise in Europe) but instead only have a warning sign before them. This means that when lane arrows are absent (often the case) you would not be breaking the law to go the wrong way around. Am I right about this?

Then again are the rules pertaining to mini-roundabouts specifically covered in the rules of the road? Link anyone?

mackerski

icdg wrote:

Supposedly we are getting a whole new sign style during the year. Given that they are probably not going to wholesale renumber the roads (again), and that it will have to remain dual-language, I would say we are in for some sort of update of the current system. Probably more of the style of signage on the South Eastern Motorway and N2 Ashbourne dual carrigeway schemes.

They'd better not resemble the N2 and SEM, whose signage is just plain wrong. Is there supposed to be a new design manual for these?

Dermot

MT

Just looked through the site linked to by the OP and came across this pic which shows the layout I described above. Nb. the blue instructive regulatory sign and lane arrows.

In contrast mini-roundabouts in the Republic just have this warning sign. There’s no obligatory signage.

Interesting bi-directional ‘Magic roundabout’ in Swindon. Looks crazy but I think these are a good idea. You’ve got one big anti-clockwise roundabout surrounded by regular mini-roundabouts. The T-shirts are a bit naff though.

More from wikipedia. Pity they hadn’t been called gyratory circuses here. That name had to have been invented by an Englishman ‘I say Henry, just up the road and then take the second turn off on the gyratory circus.'

MT

A Welsh give way sign from that site makes me wonder if the Republic will ever adopt bi-lingual warning signs?

Another obligatory roundabout sign, this time from Turkey.

mackerski wrote:

They'd better not resemble the N2 and SEM, whose signage is just plain wrong. Is there supposed to be a new design manual for these?

Yeah, those new signs are crap by international standards. Using their design everywhere would be a retrograde step. These pics of interchanges and junctions (click to enlarge) in the Netherlands show how it should be done. Traffic engineers in these parts could do with looking at that site as they might learn how to build a free flowing motorway junctions.

mackerski

MT wrote:

A Welsh give way sign from that site makes me wonder if the Republic will ever adopt bi-lingual warning signs?

Wales is actually worse at bilingual signs than we are. They have no typographical distinction between the languages, which makes for clutter since the reader has no clues to enable him to focus on his preferred language. Coupled with this is the fact that the order of the languages in Wales varies - presumably according to which language is the majority one in the area.

MT wrote:

Yeah, those new signs are crap by international standards.

They're actually crap by National standards - at least the rulebook knows the difference between a normal exit and a lane drop, which is some comfort.

Dermot